considering a buggy

[Alexei]

so, im considering getting a buggy, never had one of those before. im considering one of these; the Kyosho Optima/Ultima or Tamiya BBX. i have never been much of a buggy guy, but there is something about those 3 that caught my interest.

im leaning to get the Optima as i have never had a Kyosho RC car before, and i like its body shell too. but im not sure about which version. i like the regular Optima body the best, but the Optima Turbo looks very fancy with its gold anodized parts, and its has sway bars too it seems. my idea would be getting the Optima Turbo kit and a Optima body.

being that i have never had a buggy, is there something to be aware of with the Optima, or buggies in general?

[Juggular]

BBX has been on my radar ever since it got released. But now I'm leaning toward the new DT-04, because it's smaller and sillier.  BBX seems too big and too serious in comparison.  I'll get a BBX eventually, but DT-04 first. I've only had Kyoso Double Dare.  Couldn't quite get that one run quite straight, kinda like the Juggernaut. 

Anyhow... I've been eyeing on Optima Mid.  (It has a reputation as a very well balanced chassis). 

And Javelin, even though I'm a 2WD guy.  I like the color orange, and I like the bare-frame design. I think it's basically same as Optima Turbo?  I would zip-tie a few clear polycarbonate plates for modesty.  

Or Turbo Scorpion (because I prefer 2WD, and it has that cool retro look).  

Buggies in general: I'd say sticky grease in the diff makes a world of difference, especially for 2WD buggies.  If you could imagine how horrible it would be to rock-crawl with open diffs, Limited Slip Differentials can help you boldly go where no open diffs can go.  

 

[kevinb120]

What do you want to do with it? 

-Retro 'experience buggy' for reliving a particular time/era Tamiya covers it, just aren't going to really run 4000kv motors in them without inevitable breakage or chasing your tail
-Retro buggies that still have clearance but are pretty friendly to more modern power-Kyosho has it covered(although they get sneakily expensive quick) Turbo Scorpion is a bit of a hero.  Optima/Ultima started to become more race focused and a bit more nuanced to where you run them.
-The BBX is unique because it's a go anywhere yard buggy with modern tech which is somewhat on an island to itself. 
-Or you go to the plethora of race-focused buggies over the past 30 years that demand well groomed/maintained running spaces.
-For outright bashing a modern 2wd stadium truck as a starting point or one of the eleventy billion current rtr dedicated bashers out there.

If you have zero buggies and not latched on to some 80's memory, probably the BBX.  It will run just about any motor combo and the most basic or top-shelf servos.   It will do pretty much everything buggies do.  And there's parts, and they're pretty tough.  Can go completely high-brow or just throw a $18 sport tuned in it with a kit ESC.

[njmlondon]

You really cannot go wrong with any of the Kyosho Legendary series. I have both Scorpions and have been blown away by the quality of the parts, instructions and the whole build. 
 

The BBX is the 1st non re-re buggy that has caught my attention in a long time, the reviews are great and it looks fantastic.

The only solution is to get an Optima and a BBX!

[Alexei]

1 hour ago, Juggular said:

BBX has been on my radar ever since it got released. But now I'm leaning toward the new DT-04, because it's smaller and sillier.  BBX seems too big and too serious in comparison.  I'll get a BBX eventually, but DT-04 first. I've only had Kyoso Double Dare.  Couldn't quite get that one run quite straight, kinda like the Juggernaut. 

 

Anyhow... I've been eyeing on Optima Mid.  (It has a reputation as a very well balanced chassis). 

And Javelin, even though I'm a 2WD guy.  I like the color orange, and I like the bare-frame design. I think it's basically same as Optima Turbo?  I would zip-tie a few clear polycarbonate plates for modesty.  

 

Or Turbo Scorpion (because I prefer 2WD, and it has that cool retro look).  

Buggies in general: I'd say sticky grease in the diff makes a world of difference, especially for 2WD buggies.  If you could imagine how horrible it would be to rock-crawl with open diffs, Limited Slip Differentials can help you boldly go where no open diffs can go.  

 

i like the look of that Scorpion Turbo too, could also be an option.

 

19 minutes ago, kevinb120 said:

What do you want to do with it? 

-Retro 'experience buggy' for reliving a particular time/era Tamiya covers it, just aren't going to really run 4000kv motors in them without inevitable breakage or chasing your tail
-Retro buggies that still have clearance but are pretty friendly to more modern power-Kyosho has it covered(although they get sneakily expensive quick) Turbo Scorpion is a bit of a hero.  Optima/Ultima started to become more race focused and a bit more nuanced to where you run them.
-The BBX is unique because it's a go anywhere yard buggy with modern tech which is somewhat on an island to itself. 
-Or you go to the plethora of race-focused buggies over the past 30 years that demand well groomed/maintained running spaces.
-For outright bashing a modern 2wd stadium truck as a starting point or one of the eleventy billion current rtr dedicated bashers out there.

If you have zero buggies and not latched on to some 80's memory, probably the BBX.  It will run just about any motor combo and the most basic or top-shelf servos.   It will do pretty much everything buggies do.  And there's parts, and they're pretty tough.  Can go completely high-brow or just throw a $18 sport tuned in it with a kit ESC.

i wont participate in races, im thinking its solely for free running at whatever places i can find, like beaches, in dirt, at skateboard parks etc. im not thinking extreme offroad, but it will be outdoor unmaintained offroad of some sort. i did think about the retro aspect too, that is something im curios about too. i like much 90s and 80s stuff like cars and music and the newer retro music. the Optima (Kyosho buggies in general) interests me in that aspect too. 

 

 

[Alexei]

i forgot to add, im also wanting an interesting build in it, which i heard the Kyosho stuff have you covered.

 

47 minutes ago, njmlondon said:

You really cannot go wrong with any of the Kyosho Legendary series. I have both Scorpions and have been blown away by the quality of the parts, instructions and the whole build. 
 

The BBX is the 1st non re-re buggy that has caught my attention in a long time, the reviews are great and it looks fantastic.

The only solution is to get an Optima and a BBX!

the BBX certainly has the looks, i like the retro boxy body. i did think about buying one 4X4 and one RWD, but that is too many projects and money 

[Re-Bugged]

I’ve had a Kyosho Javelin re-re for a good few years now and enjoyed every minute of it. It runs the same Chassis as the Optima, (I believe the Optima Turbo has a few hop ups to the Javelin & Optima?). Excellent turning circle, just about U turns in not much more than is own length.

Beautiful build and has never missed a beat, and no carefully painted Lexan body to wreck. The space for the ESC is rather limited though. I have an older Justock XR10 + 13.5T combo in it on 2s but without the fan on the ESC as it won’t fit in there. No issues to date. 2 teeth up on the kit pinion as well as it was a bit slow otherwise. It’s been well used…

Even wore a Sand Scorcher body for a while..

 

Still runs as smooth as day one.

I held off on a BBX for a while as I have a Turbo Scorpion and that is a great buggy to IMO. But I having seen reviews that it’s more 1/8 than 1/10 because of the bigger outside wheel diameter it would be very much suited to where I run, and having the tyres in my hand it would appear so. Well that’s my excuse to caving and buying one anyway. I’m only up to part bag C so far, but I do find the Tamiya kits with reinforced plastic a very nice step up in quality if that’s what you are after.

Whatever you decide you’ll probably be happy with either in my experience (even though I haven’t actually run the BBX yet) and you will more than likely end up with both anyway 😉

Edit:- I only have experience with Ball Diff’s in On-Road & SRB’s (which have been fine) but I am curious to see how they the BBX Ball Diff is going to fair with the 4100kv brushless combo in it. Lucky it’s gearbox is removable with a few screws so an upgrade to a TA06 Gear Diff won’t be a problem later on if needed. 

[Andreas W]

You cannot go wrong with a Kyosho. I was considering the different Optima versions back and forth since 2021 (and that was before the Mid was rere'd to make it even harder) before I finally pulled the trigger and got a 60th Anniversary Optima Mid (waiting to be built) last year. It has got more goodies than I wanted, but who doesn't like a well equipped version? It doesn't hurt that it has the (for me) prettier Optima Pro body as well.

 

Meanwhile we also got the Optima Pro, which for me is the prettiest bodystyle. It also has a more front oriented weight distribution with the battery more to the front than then other Optimas. It also comes with an undertray. It has been on a nice price here for what it is since Christmas (but honestly I cannot say I need one now).

 

Whichever version you get I would suggest getting an undertray (maybe also a spare body) from Penguin to keep as much muck put of the chassis and keep the chassis nice for longer. 

 

PS: For less money and probably also a less interesting build, you also have the Dirtmaster,  Dirt Cross and Dune Master. All have solid drivetrains with the gearing options you want but with somewhat simpler materials. Here a Dirtmaster costs less than a DT04, so for carefree fun running I know which one of them I would pick.

[Wooders28]

I love my Tamiyas, but Kyosho are the next level for quality and performance, which is obviously represented in the price.

We had this discussion in the club, are the Legendary serise to be classed as 'vintage' seeing as they are pretty much a totally new car, built for brushless and lipo, with modern oil filled diffs, slippers and shocks, they just look like their older cousins?

And this is why you need a Kyosho legend in your collection, I have the Ultima, and its great with a 10.5t, but I'm eyeing up the Optima Pro ,really as I wanted one when they where first released, but where chain drive, and that put me off, but if I was just going to get just one, I'd maybe say the Mid. Modern go with old skool show 🤷‍♂️.

 

 

[sosidge]

11 hours ago, Alexei said:

i wont participate in races, im thinking its solely for free running at whatever places i can find, like beaches, in dirt, at skateboard parks etc. im not thinking extreme offroad, but it will be outdoor unmaintained offroad of some sort. i did think about the retro aspect too, that is something im curios about too. i like much 90s and 80s stuff like cars and music and the newer retro music. the Optima (Kyosho buggies in general) interests me in that aspect too. 

You'll find the performance in skateparks and more difficult terrain disappointing with a vintage (or vintage-inspired) buggy. They are at their best on fairly smooth surfaces with low/medium grip, like a large garden or a park. Definitely more about the look and the experience than the performance.

Sand is a very difficult surface for all RCs but especially for 1/10th buggies. For go-anywhere performance you would need a 1/10th truck or larger.

I would watch some Youtube videos of the buggies you mention and then of things like the Arrma and Traxxas trucks and just check that the vintage performance is what you really want.

[markbt73]

As stated by others, all of the Kyosho re-release cars are excellent. I have a Scorpion and a Turbo Optima, and they're both among my favorite runners. I have quite a few vintage original Kyosho buggies as well. The Optima series in general has been one of my favorites for years. It's a fun (but complicated) build, an excellent performer, and very durable as long as you don't do anything too extreme - a skate park would be a bit much for any of the cars you're considering, frankly. But they'd be right at home on a dirt field or vacant lot.

The only thing I don't really like about the Optima series is the open-ness of the design - this applies to the Ultima as well. Dirt and sand and mud gets caught in every conceivable nook and cranny in the chassis, and it's hard to get out. My Turbo Optima is perpetually dirty. The drivetrains are well-sealed, but everything else is just out in the open.

The Scorpion/Turbo Scorpion is better in this regard, because it has an enclosed tub for the radio gear and battery. It isn't watertight or anything, but it keeps the gunk off the important parts. The recently-released Optima Pro comes with an undertray that should keep things cleaner as well.

I can't comment on the BBX, though I confess I've studied the manual a bunch of times. It is tempting, but for some reason the low-profile servo requirement puts me off. I don't like models that require non-standard running gear. If you don't mind buying a servo specifically for it, then it looks like a great kit.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, sosidge said:

You'll find the performance in skateparks and more difficult terrain disappointing with a vintage (or vintage-inspired) buggy. They are at their best on fairly smooth surfaces with low/medium grip, like a large garden or a park. Definitely more about the look and the experience than the performance.

Sand is a very difficult surface for all RCs but especially for 1/10th buggies. For go-anywhere performance you would need a 1/10th truck or larger.

I would watch some Youtube videos of the buggies you mention and then of things like the Arrma and Traxxas trucks and just check that the vintage performance is what you really want.

Disappointing performance from a Kyosho? Really? You must have never owned or driven one. Traxxas and Arrma are designed for much harder bashing. 

[sosidge]

1 hour ago, Dangerous_Beard said:

Disappointing performance from a Kyosho? Really? You must have never owned or driven one. Traxxas and Arrma are designed for much harder bashing. 

Well, I raced them in period so I have a little experience.

[Kowalski86]

1 hour ago, sosidge said:

You'll find the performance in skateparks and more difficult terrain disappointing with a vintage (or vintage-inspired) buggy.

Some older 2wd buggies can do flat dirt and gravel with the right tires, if you don't mind the wear and tear. 

I personally wouldn't take any RC to a skatepark unless if I really wanted to break stuff for some reason. But Sosidge is correct, 2wd doesn't give you the air control of 4wd and giant wheels.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, sosidge said:

Well, I raced them in period so I have a little experience.

I don't normally see any negativity surrounding those wonderful buggies. That is all. 

[kevinb120]

Skate parks are brutal on cars of any type.  Kyoshos legends build lovely but they do have metal, they can get bent up and scarred badly.  The BBX is just awesome as a plastic fantastic but not a skate park car either.   I would get one of those to spend quality time with, but I will say it's great to have something else too like a Bandit or Rustler(just brushed on an 8.4 hump) for just having something nearly indestructible-they're still pretty zippy. The $200 RTR Traxxas pair with super cheap parts everywhere performs better than it should as the 2WD's are so light, and skidding on the roof or endless cartwheels  is like a 'trick' you laugh at.   Get something like that than pour some love into an Optima/Scorpion/Ultima/Tomahawk/BBX/Cougar/Procat/Super Astute/RC10 etc.  Then overpower it a little and give it a small pinion so it's like a sugar-rush roach with lovely air control.

There's also the TT02-br which has been reduced in price as of late too, that's a lot of goodies, even has three wings. I'm going to have to get one I think on 13.5T...

For cushy all-terrain 'just a buggy' I would say BBX or Javelin(although it's hard to get) or Optima

for more manic/race buggies, you need to figure out what terrain you have convenient access to.

[Alexei]

ok, sounds like skateboard parks are a no go. i remembered there is one relatively close to me, so it was just a idea i got. i also live relatively close to a beach so i could go there if the cars could handle something like that, but i have heard beach running is hard on RC cars in general. when it comes to offroad, im not too familiar with places to run, as i have never had the need.

im thinking it has to be a rerelease vintage Kyosho buggy, the other stuff dont interest me, and i have had many Tamiya cars.

what is the preferred terrain for the Optima/Javelin/Scorpion? low & medium grip means something like dirt or parks? i think we have some open grass fields nearby.

 

 

20 hours ago, Re-Bugged said:

I’ve had a Kyosho Javelin re-re for a good few years now and enjoyed every minute of it. It runs the same Chassis as the Optima, (I believe the Optima Turbo has a few hop ups to the Javelin & Optima?). Excellent turning circle, just about U turns in not much more than is own length.

Beautiful build and has never missed a beat, and no carefully painted Lexan body to wreck. The space for the ESC is rather limited though. I have an older Justock XR10 + 13.5T combo in it on 2s but without the fan on the ESC as it won’t fit in there. No issues to date. 2 teeth up on the kit pinion as well as it was a bit slow otherwise. It’s been well used…

Even wore a Sand Scorcher body for a while..

 

Still runs as smooth as day one.

I held off on a BBX for a while as I have a Turbo Scorpion and that is a great buggy to IMO. But I having seen reviews that it’s more 1/8 than 1/10 because of the bigger outside wheel diameter it would be very much suited to where I run, and having the tyres in my hand it would appear so. Well that’s my excuse to caving and buying one anyway. I’m only up to part bag C so far, but I do find the Tamiya kits with reinforced plastic a very nice step up in quality if that’s what you are after.

Whatever you decide you’ll probably be happy with either in my experience (even though I haven’t actually run the BBX yet) and you will more than likely end up with both anyway 😉

Edit:- I only have experience with Ball Diff’s in On-Road & SRB’s (which have been fine) but I am curious to see how they the BBX Ball Diff is going to fair with the 4100kv brushless combo in it. Lucky it’s gearbox is removable with a few screws so an upgrade to a TA06 Gear Diff won’t be a problem later on if needed. 

i like the look of these running places. the dirt terrain idea i had in my head was something like this, if i can find a place.

[njmlondon]

5 hours ago, Alexei said:

what is the preferred terrain for the Optima/Javelin/Scorpion? low & medium grip means something like dirt or parks? i think we have some open grass fields nearby.

Optima and Javelin are both 4WD and identical chassis. Optima also comes in “Turbo” (same chassis, more bling and better shocks”), “Pro” (same chassis but different battery and next level shocks) and “Mid” (motor moved, technically better balanced) configurations along with some Ltd editions along the way.

Scorpion and Turbo Scorpion (and Tomahawk) are all 2wd. The Scorpions have enclosed radio boxes for all your servos / ESCs etc and being 2wd are simpler (but no less enjoyable) builds and easy to maintain.

You’ll end up with at least one of each drive type so if I were you I would start with any of the 2wd drive ones and then add.

Best source of info and inspiration is @Kai City RC on YouTube and also sometimes seen around these parts. I learnt a lot from him and he inspired me to break my Tamiya loyalty and give Kyosho a go. 

 

[Twinfan]

28 minutes ago, njmlondon said:

Optima and Javelin are both 4WD and identical chassis. Optima also comes in “Turbo” (same chassis, more bling and better shocks”), “Pro” (same chassis but different battery and next level shocks) and “Mid” (motor moved, technically better balanced) configurations along with some Ltd editions along the way.

The shock internals are the same on all Optima variations aside from the 87 WC Mid edition which gets titanium coated piston shafts.

The only other difference between models is in the bodies.  Anything above the regular Optima gets a screw collar for preload in place of a screw down plastic part.  Pro and 87 WC Mid get the same shocks as the Turbo but in gunmetal grey colour rather than gold.

[Andreas W]

2 hours ago, Twinfan said:

The shock internals are the same on all Optima variations aside from the 87 WC Mid edition which gets titanium coated piston shafts.

The only other difference between models is in the bodies.  Anything above the regular Optima gets a screw collar for preload in place of a screw down plastic part.  Pro and 87 WC Mid get the same shocks as the Turbo but in gunmetal grey colour rather than gold.

There's also the more forward battery position on the Optima Pro . 

 

Edit: Now looking at fotos of the models the reres must be the same. It's only mentioned in the spec sheet for the Pro,  but in the physical world it seems not to be so. 

[Twinfan]

1 hour ago, Andreas W said:

There's also the more forward battery position on the Optima Pro . 

Really?  How so?

The chassis' look the same to me...

[Andreas W]

27 minutes ago, Twinfan said:

Really?  How so?

The chassis' look the same to me...

Hmmm. I think I must have been influenced by the specs sheet. But looking at the fotos of the models it looks like you are correct.

[Twinfan]

No worries!

[Rokka]

Main chassis of Optima Pro is the same as in other Optimas/Javelin, but the top-deck and electronics arrangement is different. Servo is moved behind the battery (with looong rod) and battery is moved slightly forward and there is also even-more-forward position for shorty-lipos. Front shock-tower is also different, it's (thick) plastic and taller giving more upright suspension geometry.

With old heavy nicd/nimh batteries the forward position gave more weight to front wheels, but I'm not sure if moving modern 150g lipo few centimeters forward and putting 60g servo at the back has the same effect. But you don't buy Optimas for performance...

[Wooders28]

27 minutes ago, Rokka said:

 

Ohh, 

Where did you get the 90° bullet connectors from? 

Are they 4mm, 5mm or stepped?