Running Tamiya Super Stock Motor Question

[Tamiya1973]

Hi

I have the following cars Tamiya Wild One, Tamiya M-03 and the new Tamiya MB-01 which I am thinking of putting my Tamiya Super Stock motors in. I will not be running Li-Po 2S/3S batteries. Just standard Ni-Cd batteries.

My question is will these three cars all standard out the box kits handle a Super Stock motor with Ni-Cd battery, or should I downgrade to a Sport / GT Motor for reliability?

Thank you in advance. 

[Guest]

They'll handle the super stock no problem even on lipo power. Go for it. 

[El Gecko]

1 hour ago, Tamiya1973 said:

Hi

I have the following cars Tamiya Wild One, Tamiya M-03 and the new Tamiya MB-01 which I am thinking of putting my Tamiya Super Stock motors in. I will not be running Li-Po 2S/3S batteries. Just standard Ni-Cd batteries.

My question is will these three cars all standard out the box kits handle a Super Stock motor with Ni-Cd battery, or should I downgrade to a Sport / GT Motor for reliability?

Thank you in advance. 

First let's define "handle":

1. the gearbox, drivetrain, etc. can "handle" or "will not be destroyed by" a Super Stock motor

2. the entire chassis/car meaning shocks/springs, tires, etc. can "handle" the power of a Super Stock motor, i.e. the car is still controllable with the new motor

The first one, as @Gorgonzola said, is true. The Super Stock motor should not cause any issues in the gearbox or drivetrain of any of those vehicles. They should be able to handle the stronger motor just fine. Except, of course, in the event of a crash.

The second one is a bit harder to determine in theory, because there are many more variables that cause a car to "handle" in a controllable way. "Handling" here being the traditional definition of vehicle handling and controllability. For instance, you may find that with the increase in power, there's also an increase in wheelspin out of the corners which could be solved with grippier tires, or it becomes unpredictable at high speeds necessitating a stiffer spring or shock oil. So potentially, upgrading the motor may send you down the rabbit hole of additional upgrades depending on your preferences and goals.

[Tamiya1973]

Great, thank you :-) 

[Tamiya1973]

1 hour ago, El Gecko said:

First let's define "handle":

1. the gearbox, drivetrain, etc. can "handle" or "will not be destroyed by" a Super Stock motor

2. the entire chassis/car meaning shocks/springs, tires, etc. can "handle" the power of a Super Stock motor, i.e. the car is still controllable with the new motor

The first one, as @Gorgonzola said, is true. The Super Stock motor should not cause any issues in the gearbox or drivetrain of any of those vehicles. They should be able to handle the stronger motor just fine. Except, of course, in the event of a crash.

The second one is a bit harder to determine in theory, because there are many more variables that cause a car to "handle" in a controllable way. "Handling" here being the traditional definition of vehicle handling and controllability. For instance, you may find that with the increase in power, there's also an increase in wheelspin out of the corners which could be solved with grippier tires, or it becomes unpredictable at high speeds necessitating a stiffer spring or shock oil. So potentially, upgrading the motor may send you down the rabbit hole of additional upgrades depending on your preferences and goals.

Good point. 

Do you think I would be better with something like Sport / GT in these cars? 

[Twinfan]

There was some talk about the GT-Tuned motor on here and some testing done, they seem to be a bit over-specced and under-performing.

If you're not going SuperStock, I'd save your money and go for a Sport Tuned instead of a GT-Tuned.

[OoALEJOoO]

@Tamiya1973 Are you positive you are using NiCd batteries and not NiMH?

I believe NiCd can have significant less current output than NiMH, especially if it's a low mAh capacity (e.g. 2000 mAh or lower). It might happen that the large current draw of the Super Stock motor triggers the low-voltage cutoff of your ESC prematurely if run with NiCd. I don't run NiCd myself, but when using slightly worn NiMH that have their current output diminished, they definitely trigger the cutoff early, resulting in shorter run times.

I can relate the wish to not go with LiPo as I haven't made the jump myself for various reasons. However, other than nostalgia or keeping the RC equipment true to the era, NiCd is inferior to NiMH in all practical aspects.

Note that you will need a beefier ESC to run a Super Stock. The ESC included with Tamiya kits cannot handle it (except the rebranded 1060 Hobbywing by Tamiya).

 

[Tamiya1973]

1 minute ago, OoALEJOoO said:

@Tamiya1973 Are you positive you are using NiCd batteries and not NiMH?

I believe NiCd can have significant less current output than NiMH, especially if it's a low mAh capacity (e.g. 2000 mAh or lower). It might happen that the large current draw of the Super Stock motor triggers the low-voltage cutoff of your ESC prematurely if run with NiCd. I don't run NiCd myself, but when using slightly worn NiMH that have their current output diminished, they definitely trigger the cutoff early, resulting in shorter run times.

I can relate the wish to not go with LiPo as I haven't made the jump myself for various reasons. However, other than nostalgia or keeping the RC equipment true to the era, NiMH is superior to NiCd in most of not all aspects.

Note that you will need a beefier ESC to run a Super Stock. The ESC included with Tamiya kits cannot handle it.

Thanks for reply.

I run Super Stock BZ and kit HobbyWing 1060 in my Hotshot with 3300 Ni-Cd and never had it cut out. Does it make a difference if one is 2WD and the other is 4WD?

[OoALEJOoO]

Great to hear the 3300 NiCd is not creating early cutoffs. The larger capacity might be helping. Running a shorter FDR might also influence drawing less current.

4WD should draw a little more current but it shouldn't be a significant difference.

[El Gecko]

39 minutes ago, Tamiya1973 said:

Good point. 

Do you think I would be better with something like Sport / GT in these cars? 

Nah, the GT tuned is only a bit more RPM than a silvercan but with about double the torque. Unless you're running very tall gearing or a very heavy vehicle (which none of the above are) I'd say you won't see much improvement there. And the Sport Tuned is weaker than the GT on all counts, plus it tends to get a lot hotter than other motors in the same usage scenarios.

And there's the rub: it really depends on how you intend to use the cars. If you're driving in a large open area, a faster motor is probably more desirable, whereas on a tight track it really doesn't help much and can make the car more unpredictable. I see you've already got a Super Stock in another of your cars, so I'd say if you're on the fence, temporarily swap that motor into one of the other cars and see how you like it before buying anything.

[CMshooter]

Run time will just be a little shorter.  I would make sure you they have been upraded with bearings at minimum.  Oil shocks will help with the tunability to make use of the added speed.  Torque tuned or Sport tuned 540 is really a noticable upgrade from stock on these, but does not have the replacable brushes of the Super Stock.

[skom25]

Be aware that Super Stock motor gets VERY hot VERY quickly. It is almost useless without fan.

During summer you will start to cook it after 5-7 minutes, even in car with quick high FDR. Good fan improves situation a bit, but still you need to check temperature quite often.

I had few Super Stock motors in TT-02, TT-02B and DT-02. They are fun, but use them only for short runs or during cold months.

[MadAnt]

5 hours ago, Tamiya1973 said:

Hi

I have the following cars Tamiya Wild One, Tamiya M-03 and the new Tamiya MB-01 which I am thinking of putting my Tamiya Super Stock motors in. I will not be running Li-Po 2S/3S batteries. Just standard Ni-Cd batteries.

My question is will these three cars all standard out the box kits handle a Super Stock motor with Ni-Cd battery, or should I downgrade to a Sport / GT Motor for reliability?

Thank you in advance. 

Just upgrading your batteries will make a noticeable difference. Go LiPo and and the stock motors will not only be quicker, but the wires will run cooler. Yes that's true and I have never melted a Tamiya connector on 2s LiPo with semi-mild motors. 

[OoALEJOoO]

1 minute ago, skom25 said:

Be aware that Super Stock motor gets VERY hot VERY quickly. It is almost useless without fan.

Very true and good advice!

Also, after replacing the brushes perhaps for a second time, be mindful that the commutators at that point will be a bit rough, particularly if the motor was run hot. Unless you re-true the comm with a lathe, your best hope will be to bring it back to Sport Tuned performance if trued by hand using a drill. Having a Super Stock perform well over its entire lifespan requires equipment & work.

[Juggular]

2 hours ago, El Gecko said:

If you're driving in a large open area, a faster motor is probably more desirable, whereas on a tight track it really doesn't help much and can make the car more unpredictable

I'd say @El Gecko hit the mark.  

[Location]  

Where you run makes a huge difference.  Running it on a narrow street with parked 1:1 cars all around?  Even a 380 motor could feel too fast. 

If you run it on an abandoned airport tarmac?  You'd need an actual airplane to make you feel like you are going fast.  

[Speed vs Control]

It depends on what you want to get out of.  If speed run is what you want, a faster motor with a LiPo would be good.  But if you want more control on a race track, a faster motor isn't good.  In fact, there is a movement to limit races with a 380 motor.  People actually downgrade to 380 motors to race without too much stress. 

Having said that, I have a motor similar to Sport tuned on my FAV. (It does make that clicking sound, occasionally. I need to rebuild it with new diff gears, shims and extra sticky diff grease.)  My M05 & M06 has a regular silver can. So does my MB-01 (I chose RWD).  I have several extra motors (two 13.5t motors, two Sport tuned, a 19t motor, even a 550 motor, etc). But I don't want to put them on M-chassis.  I'm afraid even a Sport tuned would make my M06 and MB01uncontrollable.  To me, M-chassis are about control.  If you must put a fast motor on MB01, FWD would be easier to control.  

[Bearings] 

Full bearings can make you go about 15% faster.  Torque Tuned motor can go about 15% faster.  So if you don't have ball bearings, I'm afraid you are missing out.    

[Battery]

Since you don't want LiPO yet, upgrading to NiMH is something to consider.  A faster motor is like a race horse.  If you buy a good horse, but don't feed it well, the horse can't run fast.  It's not about the voltage, it's the amp. Newer NiMH batteries can supply more volume of electricity per given time.  It's like giving more oxygen to a gasoline engine.  They are your cars. You can do whatever you want. It's just something to consider. 

 

[CMshooter]

44 minutes ago, skom25 said:

Be aware that Super Stock motor gets VERY hot VERY quickly. It is almost useless without fan.

During summer you will start to cook it after 5-7 minutes, even in car with quick high FDR. Good fan improves situation a bit, but still you need to check temperature quite often.

I had few Super Stock motors in TT-02, TT-02B and DT-02. They are fun, but use them only for short runs or during cold months.

 

Sometimes we have to remember that when the Super Stock was a serious race motor, batteries were like 1400mah and we were barely gearing for a 4 minute race.  Now even cheap nimh batteries are 3300mah, very easy to over gear and cook motors with long run times.

[Snappy1]

A super stock will destroy the wild one ‘s gearbox, the gearbox on the wild one is the weak point, it may not happen straight away but it will happen, I’d guess 20 battery packs and the gearbox metal pot gears will be toasted, it isn’t the end of the world but you should be aware.

[Tamiya1973]

O.k thanks everyone for the advice. Lots to think about.

[BigJag]

Reading through this thread makes me wonder whether it would be sensible to run a a Super Stock in a Lunchbox. Controlled by a Hobbywing 1060 ESC.

I have the Super Stock lying around. Tried fitting it to the MB. It wouldn't mesh correctly and was also hitting tge suspension mount.