So what now?

[TWINSET]

Ok, take a look at this auction one of mine);

Link

I'm getting a bit wary now of unconfirmed paypal addresses, so decided on some stipulations, namely;

PAYPAL ONLY ACCEPTED FROM CONFIRMED ADDRESSES

PLEASE ENSURE YOU HAVE CONFIRMED YOUR ADDRESS WITH PAYPAL BEFORE BIDDING

id="size2">

So guess what, sold it BIN, to a guy without a confirmed paypal address.

No emails from him, nothing, just payment!

From his feedback, he looks a perfectly acceptable bidder, but given all the scare stories regarding identity theft etc., why should I take the risk?

[TWINSET]

Jeez, paypal are useless;

Just phoned them for their take on it, and they say the guy is uK verified - there is nothing on the payment to confirm this - it just says (The sender of this payment is Non-US - Verified)

Then, they say there is no way to confirm a uK address, yet mine was, via credit card tracking.

They also said that I am verified becuase the phone number on my account geographically points to my verified address, which is cobblers, as the phone number on the account is my work number, 20 miles away with a different area code, in another county!

They won't confirm in writing (or via email, because they can't email) that it is safe to dispatch the goods, they don't have the facility!

[ChrisB]

Andy, I guess thats the problem - until ebay allow you to filter on this criteria there is no way of preventing people with unconfirmed addresses buying with a BIN.

I can understand your concern, especially given the value of the item you are selling. The only thing I can suggest is that you refund the buyers payment and email them explaining that as clearly stated in the auction its only open to buyers with confirmed addresses.

Then relist the item and don't put a BIN on it, maybe put a starting bid of the same value as your BIN or a reserve on it. I guess the only problem is that Paypal will probably not refund their rip-off few % from the first sale, plus ebay will probably also not refund their cut.

To my mind Paypal should make EVERYONE who wants to use their system verify their address, or only allow people to pay for items up to a pre-cleared limit of funds they actually have in the account.

They won't do it though as they effectively have a monopoly on this, and don't need to change things.

Sadly sending by insured postage in this case won't help you either as I think thay only cover you for damage or loss in transit.

I would say if the buyer has 100+ positive feedback you should be OK though.

Chris

[sosidge]

Personally, I'm pretty trusting in these matters and don't put any restrictions on buyers (although I feel it in the pit of my stomach if someone with recent negative feedback and a low rating bids on an item!).

Paypals "confirmed" address system is pretty flaky, like ChrisB said above.

Nobody reads the whole item description and policies anyway...

If your policy is confirmed address only, it's best to stick to your guns and refund IMHO.

[Lemming]

I have a problem as a buyer. I am a verified member with my home address confirmed. The problem I have is that no-one is home during the day. For this reason I get items shipped to my office - this then shows as an unconfirmed address! Real problem as many sellers have questioned this.

When you buy of ebay a lot it is a pain to use your home address and keep going into the (non-local) main post office to collect everything on the weekend.

Therefore, I am a buyer with a confirmed address, but don't normally use that one for my purchases. If the buyer is in the same position as me, it might be worth asking him to send a really small payment with his confirmed address (1p) and ship it to there instead - most buyers won't object as you are attempting to ensure the item gets there safely. One seller has done that to me, and I was fine with sorting it via that route.

Steve

[fastboy]

tough one this,why not explain to him your situation and point out that you said confirmed only and ask for a cheque or postal orders or cash sent by registered(think its only a fiver to send),if he really wants it then he will oblige..

[TWINSET]

quote:

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Originally posted by fastboy

tough one this,why not explain to him your situation and point out that you said confirmed only and ask for a cheque or postal orders or cash sent by registered(think its only a fiver to send),if he really wants it then he will oblige..

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Exactly what I've done chap.

Normally, I don't bother with all this, just on high value stuff, and especially on phones - they seem to be a magnet to rip off merchants - Within 2 hours last nite, I had 3 emails asking if I'd accept bidpay to send it to a brother-in-law who desperately needs a phone.

The guy who bid on it, buys and sells phones anyway by the looks of it, so if he wants it bad enough, he'll post a cheque.

It really hacks me off that ebay say paypal is the only safe way to BUY, but it's no safer when you're selling!

[jozza]

I have the same problem as Lemming, namely that my work address is unconfirmed. What would be good is a way of confirming addresses that have previoulsy been used without problem - I've had zillions of parcels delivered to my work address from eBay purchases, so if there was some way to tie it together so that a seller could see the address was genuine it would be good. That would require some work on ebay/paypal's part though....

[theshopkeeper]

Long blether follows, might be of use to some...

This all came up a few months ago in a very long thread, and I've since worked out a "stuff Paypal" routine which should avoid you losing out (other than losing your Paypal account that is) if a deal goes sour:

1: Remove any direct debitable bank account from your paypal account, since Paypal apparantly are allowed to debit your bank account as if it was your paypal balance in the event of a chargeback - they are not allowed by Visa/Mastercard regulations to draw from your credit card without permission, and Halifax told me (I have a Halifax card solely for online purchases) that as soon as they see Paypal on a disputed transaction they simply reverse the charge in any event!

1a: Make sure your funding source is a CREDIT CARD by the way, not a Solo/Electron/Delta debit card since these give absolutely no mail order protection.

2: Go to Nationwide (or any bank that offers a card only savings account which doesn't allow direct debits but does allow direct deposits) and open an account. The Nationwide do one called "Cashbuilder" which is really aimed at kids & pensioners since the interest is dire but it suits the end in this case. I chose Nationwide since it's 30 seconds away from my shop so I can pop round there and check daily to see if deposits go through, but as the ads say - Other Savings Accounts Are Available. Set this account up as the "money out" account on Paypal. Nationwide are good for this since they don't charge for electronic deposits.

3: The *moment* you spot your balance go over £50, withdraw every penny to the account. Once the money is in the account (and only then - it takes 4 working days in my experience) it doesn't matter if the address was good or the card was right - you've got the money and Paypal can't claw it back out of the account.

3A: If you take a lot from an unconfirmed address, wait till the money is in the Cashbuilder account before you post the item. I would do this for any large sum in fact, I don't trust Paypal to confirm the addresses correctly.

4: Ignore Paypal & Ebay's buyer protection - make sure you fund any purchases off your credit card by clearing the account balance first, even if you have to pay a small fee because you have less than £50 balance. That way, if you get stitched up, complain to the card company, who will likely chargeback against Paypal. This may have the effect of freezing your Paypal account (so make sure you empty it first, especially since you would probably then not want to use it anymore in any event) and Paypal will probably go beserk but there is very little they can actually do...

The key to this is to always run the account down to nothing - log on every time you get a payment and check, and as soon as you're over £50 clear it out. And always fund purchases from your card and not your balance, since then you would be totally stuffed if nothing turned up.

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As an aside, if you're a buyer and the seller follows this routine, you are stuffed too if your purchase turns sour - Paypal can only refund to you out of the sellers funds or bank account. In this case, there would be no funds or account. i.e. buyer protection doesn't exist.

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Paypal is wrong about verifying uK card addresses to - I can do it in 30 seconds on less details than Paypal takes... I gather from the number of people who we phone each day when they're rejected that very few mail order outlets do. Maybe that's why card fraud is so high in the uK.

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Mastercard and Visa do not record centrally the phone number for your account - there is no way to check this against your card number...

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Paypal claim in their help that "you can block payments from unconfirmed Addresses". However, the option on the control panel has been removed.

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My Paypal address is unconfirmed - I can't work out how to confirm it.

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Comments appreciated on this BTW.

Neil

[theshopkeeper]

Twinset: Further to this, just looked at your Auction - cheques. Yes, your bank will allow you to draw from the cleared funds after 3 or 4 working days, but the originating bank can take up to TWO WEEKS to bounce the cheque.

I've had this happen several times, on cheques with guarantee numbers on the back too. Sorry to be all doom and gloom.

[TWINSET]

quote:

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Originally posted by theshopkeeper

Twinset: Further to this, just looked at your Auction - cheques. Yes, your bank will allow you to draw from the cleared funds after 3 or 4 working days, but the originating bank can take up to TWO WEEKS to bounce the cheque.

I've had this happen several times, on cheques with guarantee numbers on the back too. Sorry to be all doom and gloom.

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Yup, already knew about this one, it amazes be that your own bank will clear funds, then reserve the right to take them back again - why not just say it takes 14 days to clear?[!]

I found this out a couple of weeks back, when asking if a cheque had cleared.

The buyer has emailed me, was real good about it, and is posting over a cheque []

[PTV70R]

quote:Originally posted by TWINSET

quote:Originally posted by theshopkeeper

Twinset: Further to this, just looked at your Auction - cheques. Yes, your bank will allow you to draw from the cleared funds after 3 or 4 working days, but the originating bank can take up to TWO WEEKS to bounce the cheque.

I've had this happen several times, on cheques with guarantee numbers on the back too. Sorry to be all doom and gloom.

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id="quote">id="quote">

Yup, already knew about this one, it amazes be that your own bank will clear funds, then reserve the right to take them back again - why not just say it takes 14 days to clear?[!]

I found this out a couple of weeks back, when asking if a cheque had cleared.

The buyer has emailed me, was real good about it, and is posting over a cheque []

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Assuming you are in the uK, banks cannot take 2 weeks to return a cheque, it may get delayed in the post which is another story.

If you pay a cheque into your bank on a Monday it gets to the other bank on Wednesday and the latest they can return it is Thursday and they have to use first class post to return it to your Bank who should get it on the following day and in turn return it to you. It can therefore seem to take a long time before you actually hear if it has come back.

The problem when you ring your Bank and no doubt get someone in a call centre who has probably never actually done real bank work is that they will check your account on screen and because the cheque is showing as cleared they tell you that 'yes it has cleared' - this actually means it is cleared for interest & charges purposes only but could be on its way back !!

Many Banks will also 'try it on' and return cheques that have been backed by a card claiming it has not been drawn in accordance with cheque card regulations so if you are sure you have complied with the regs then stand your ground and insist that they honour it - you will need to send the cheque to them with a letter - and remember to tell them that you are 'Concerned' or express 'dissatisfaction' as this means they have to deal with the complaint quickly, i.e. in line with FSA requirements.

For the full cheque card regulations and other useful info take a look at the APACS web site (apacs.org.uk).

[theshopkeeper]

I was talking from experience, not regulation, there PTV70R - on numerous occasions I have received cheques back from the bank with a bounce letter around a fortnight after sending them in, and this was with two different banks too. This is on business accounts - it may be quicker with personal accounts. I have also had problems where the guarantee card has been used "too many times that day" - a very weak excuse, but again caught up in the t&c of the originating account.

The problem is probably all in the postage time between banks, but was aimed more as a warning than anything - just don't assume that a cheque has cleared after a few days.

[PTV70R]

Originally posted by theshopkeeper

I was talking from experience, not regulation, there PTV70R - on numerous occasions I have received cheques back from the bank with a bounce letter around a fortnight after sending them in, and this was with two different banks too. This is on business accounts - it may be quicker with personal accounts. I have also had problems where the guarantee card has been used "too many times that day" - a very weak excuse, but again caught up in the t&c of the originating account.

The use of the card is only limited to any single transaction - the card holder can make as many transactions as he has cheques. The only time they can bounce the cheque is of you have not fully complied with the terms, i.e. if the signature does not match or if you take more than one cheque to cover a single transaction in which case they must pay the first cheque only. The only exception to this rule is for encashment services as they have to mark the frequency slip in the back of the book to stop the customer cashing more than 1 cheque a day. After all how can one shop keeper know that another one has already had a cheque from that person today ?? You also cannot be expected to know the t&c for every different bank account on the market (there's probobly hundreds if not thousands)- you are only expected to know the terms for the guarantee scheme which are the same for all Banks as they are agreed and issued via APACS.

Like I said Banks will try it on or may return a cheque without realising that it is guaranteed. If you get any back and you are happy that you have done everything right then fight back !!

It should also be stated that over the last 10 years or so that banks have removed most functions from branches into service centres the average bank clerk knows far less than they did previously and get it wrong all the time - I know I work with them !!! Indeed I have seen many instances where my colleagues in the lending department have returned cheques that are backed by cards and the reason (excuse ?) recorded is that it is payable to an individual so they have somehow got the (wrong) idea that the guarantee scheme only covers cheques to businesses !!!!

You can download the terms of the scheme from the APACS website. This should also be available at any branch of any participating Bank - I bet it aint though !!!

[theshopkeeper]

Thanks for the info - I've probably got that t&c here somewhere, I'll dig it out and have a browse.

I'd still stand by my warning though, especially given your experience with colleagues! I wouldn't want someone on here to send off their much loved Tamiya only to get a letter a couple fo days later. Best to sit and wait for a little to be sure - I can't see anyone disagreeing with that.

(As an aside, from a retailers point of view though, it isn't really a major issue anymore - since hardly anyone now has a cheque gtee card without a Delta/Switch/Maestro/Montego etc logo on it, it's quicker and better for all to just use the card.)