Would Kyosho go down the re-release route?

[Wandy 1527]

Wonder if Kyosho are aware of what Tamiya are up to with all these re-releases, and are considering doing the same? I think plenty people would go a bit hysterical for a chain-drive Gold Optima or an Optima Mid Turbo. If Tamiya can do it cost effectively I dont see what Kyosho would have to lose?

[mrlexan 0]

I asked the same question... Personally I would love for them to do that. Darryn/Retro has a good answer to that question. Darryn?

Jay

[RETRO R/C 59]

Jeeeez Jay - put me in it mate!! []

In my personal opinion I dont beleive that Kysoho would ever take the route of seriously re-releasing any of their cars. The reasoning is quite simple really......

Kyosho never really concentrated on the "mass market". They were an engineering based company who were heavily involved in racing form day "0". Now Tamiya went the other route apealing more to the mass market and marketing rather than race cars.

It is a very strong memory of mine, and I am sure most racers, that when someone turned up to race a car for the first time back in those days it was almost always a Tamiya. It was not long before the person (if they were interested in racing) bought a Kysoho or Yokomo or other more serious and capable racer.

Not many people in relative terms actually raced their cars. I can honestly say that even to this day over 95% of all R/C cars sold NEVER see a race track or serious competition.

How many people have you heard say - yeah - my fist car was an Turbo Optima or Scorpion.......you see my point? While there may be exceptions to the rule it is more often than not the case that people who owned Kysoho cars had progressed on from Tamiya.

To a RACER the Kysoho cars are truly collectable and highly sought after. I know that I would absolutely jump at any chance to get some re-releases from them. I have spoken to several sources inside Kysoho and they assure me that nothing is planned......yet.

I would say that while Tamiya have released some of ther older cars - they for most part have been sales failures - particularly the XR311 and 6 wheeler. I am sure they will have more luck with the offroaders though.

So in short - it is unlikely that Kyosho would re-produce any of their older cars simply for economic reasons. Knowing some of the people that work at Kyosho - they would almost certainly see it as a backward step. Also,Kyosho are still innovators and world champions at the highest levels of competition. They will be going for all scales soon. There is a new on road 1/10th electric coming and new off road electrics as well. They are too busy developing products for now - not dwelling on past glory.

I know that Kyosho is deeply proud of their history, and the impression that I get is that they want to keep it that way - as a great memory.[8D]

So in short - highly unlikely because the sales would be no where near viable, the company is driving forwad as competition stands still for no one.[]

Sorry for the long winded reply.....kind of a "brain dump"

Cheers

Darryn

(NONE of these comments are a slight on Tamiya's re-releases or racing pedigree - they are a "different" manufacturer with different directions)id="red">id="size1">

[Wandy 1527]

Quality post Darryn. I'm a perfect example of the kind of person you mention. Got a Hotshot, then a Bigwig and finally a Turbo Mid after discovering my Tamiyas were nowhere on the winning podium at my local club. Do the people at Kyosho make any commments about Tamiya's re-release policy? Is there any rivalry between the two companies?

[mrlexan 0]

quote:Originally posted by Wandy

Quality post Darryn.

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Exactly why I put you in it!

Jay

[terry.sc 16]

As Darryn says to racers Kyoshos cars are collectable. As a racer myself I would still be more interested in an old racer than an old Tamiya, but old racers are very much in the minority. Just look how many Kyoshos are in the showrooms compared to Tamiyas. Less than 1 in 10 cars were ever raced, Tamiya concentrates on the non racers which means they sell more cars than anyone else. I also remember the new racers turning up with Tamiyas while everyone raced Schumachers or Kyoshos. When they upgraded to a 'proper' racer they could never sell the old Tamiyas to anyone in the club. With hindsight I should have bought up all the old Hotshots, Frogs, Wild Ones and 959s. No one wanted them. Racers weren't even interested in second hand Avantes and Egresses.

Kyosho are racers at heart which is why they are so successful on the track. Their backyard bashers were based on their race cars but were never marketed like Tamiyas were. Tamiya always produced the basher first then upgraded it to the race version. An example being Manta Ray > Top Force > Top Force Evo. Kyosho would have brought out the Evo first, then later the cheaper versions.

Kyosho have concentrated on 1/8th rallycross the past few years and have been very successful. 1/10th electric on and off road are the most popular club racing classes and Tamiya and Kyosho are using two completely different methods to get back into the news. Tamiya have won the touring car World Champs twice in a row but racers are more interested in the more race oriented manufacturers. By re-releasing the old cars they get centre stage. Kyosho are being talked about more amongst 1/10th racers just because they have some prototypes and who the racers that have been signed up by them are.

If Kyosho build a race winning car they will sell a lot more cars than if they re-released old chassis. Tamiya will sell a lot more re-releases than a race winning buggy.

[Tipsy 7]

I was a successful Kyosho racer (Optima) but moved onto Schumacher for more success, back in the late '80s.

I now have probably one of the larger collections of Kyosho NIB/NB in the Club too(I know there are people withe more, Darryn, you lucky person), as I prefer the quality of Metal Kyosho kits. I like the more complex 4wd kits when buying Tamiya, but having a nice old collection of Kyosho is far more appealing.

[RETRO R/C 59]

I still actively race Kyosho and obviously have raced them on and off for many years in the past. I am on the Australian Kyosho team here, (for how much longer I am not sure), and can assure you that there are some very exciting cars coming.

Kyosho have always concentrated heavily on the "F1" classes of R/C racing - 1/8th scale on and off road. They have a very enviable record at this high level, multiple world championships in both classes - including last weekend again securing the 1/8th on road title. Kyosho have acheived world titles in 1/10th off road, and countless major championships around the globe in any class they care to take seriously.

I have been very fortunate in being able to secure ALL of the chain drive Optimas - in fact I now have all the 1/10th chain drive buggies built by Kyosho from the Progress through to the final two versions of the Salutes all NIB. It is truly fascinating to look at the kits and see how Kysho made subtle and not so subtle changes to these cars to make them more and more competative. The Mids are the cars that I am lusting after now - I have two to go and I will have every 1/10th kit with the name Optima on it...then that is it. So like Terry said - to an old racer (like me), these cars are gold and far more interesting than some of the cookie cutter stuff around now. I CANNOT wait till I get control back of my site so I can update it!

So in short I dont think there are not enough race fans to make a re-release worth while (SADLY)..........but at least we have the memories.

Cheers

Darryn

[RETRO R/C 59]

Sorry Wandy - I missed your question!!

In answer - yes - the Kyosho people I know are more than aware and quite interested in the success/failure of the Tamiya re-releases. I think that the recent posting of the history of Kyosho on their website shows that there is an element of "we have history too" about it.

That being said - Kyosho have never really been one to "blow their own trumpet". Their marketing stategies both now and then lean more towards "clinical" and to the point. Where as Tamiya's rather optimistic claims of "Real Racing Buggy" on even a Striker[xx(], sucked plenty of people in then - still works, even to this day.

So while there is a "quasi" competition between the two manufacturers, they still concentrate on different areas. Kyosho does have its entry level and fun "basher" cars - but nowhere to the extent of Tamiya - to be honest Kyosho is getting WAY better on being innovative with their cars than even the mighty Tamiya with some real "outside the box" thinking with their current and new upcoming designs.

I think people make more of the Tamiya and Kyosho rivalry than the companies do - as they have both been VERY successful at what they do for well over 40 years in Kyosho's case!

Cheers

Darryn

[jerrywasaracecardriver 0]

I could see kyosho continuing a series like the blizzaed and the motorbikes. As for rereleasing old buggies, I doubt it. I have an interesting model in my showroom though. The celica gt4 rally car is optima mid based, but it was released after the optima mid was already dead, and lazer was the new king. I could see kyosho resurecting an old model chassis with a new twist. Perhaps they will make a new rally car based on lazer mechanicals. unfortunately, it would likely not be an aluminum and frp model. Kyosho always seemed more intent on winning races with most models, so it makes more sense to just expect more great modern race cars from them.

[WillyChang 1814]

Didn't half of the old Kyosho engies defect over to uSA/HPI...?

[bender 0]

quote:Originally posted by RETRO R/C

-to be honest Kyosho is getting WAY better on being innovative with their cars than even the mighty Tamiya with some real "outside the box" thinking with their current and new upcoming designs.

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Absolutely! Their new Lazer (ZX5) is finally here (to be released later this month) and their new touring car design is a perfect example of, as Darryn said, "outside the box" thinking []

What has always been apparent with Kyosho is that when they decide to invest in competing in any scale, they usually end up with extremely competative cars, and a few world championships too []

[DJTheo 2]

Also don't think currently Kyosho will re-release any classic RC car, but not only for the reasons mentioned aboved, but because imho Kyosho is since the mid 90s not what it used to be, at least in their car range. Except in 1:8 there is nothing spectacular, or even competitive... Where are the famous old 1:10 buggies, or even some succesfull tourers? Kyosho makes mostly mini toys (their poor current range www.kyosho.co.jp/web/products/car_bike/index-e.html) and a TA05 will beat a Pure Ten or even an old Tamtech a first generation Mini Z but racers will always have their anti-Tamiya glasses and even if Tamiya wins 5 world cups in a row, Kyosho will always serious stuff while Tamiya "beginner toys".

That doesn't lower of course the value of their old buggies, which are truly a masterpieces and I wish I had half as many as Darryn! [^]

Now with new Kyosho uSA and Europe though I hope there will be a dynamic compeback from Kyosho, with some great EP cars, competition is good for all! [8D]

Cheers

[RETRO R/C 59]

Theo - I agree and disagree.

True - on a world wide scale Kyosho has not done anything of note with 1/10 buggies since the mid nineties. I actually think this was them being smart rather than nothing to contribute. Since 96 or so 1/10th off road was dying - and is only just now starting to make a world wide comeback. In Japan the Lazer series and 2 wd buggies from Kyosho are and were kicking up a storm in the local Japanese dopmestic market - still being VERY competative at off road. It is the fact that the distributors in Europe, uS and Australia were just not interested in the low volume off road market. So there was little point in trying to sell only a couple of hundred kits on a world level. That will change now - particularly in the uS as there is now a factory Kysoho outlet and a GLOBAL push towards off road again.

I dont think Kyosho have ever really tried to build a competative scale tourer with perhaps the exception of the KX one a couple of years ago - this was only released on the Asian market though.

As for being "anti Tamiya" - with regards to competition classes - I not so much against Tamiya, as I love to see them up there. What gets me is that they take the credit for the world titles - yet did not design the 415 at all...............I dont think they are toys - I love Tamiya as much as the next man - badword - it makes up the bulk of my collection!! I like them for a completely different reason to my Kyosho kits and cars though.

I did not take anything personally at all mate - nor, I am sure, did you intend it to be taken that way.....just thought I would remark on those couple of things.[]

Cheers

Darryn

[terry.sc 16]

quote:Originally posted by DJTheo

Also don't think currently Kyosho will re-release any classic RC car, but not only for the reasons mentioned aboved, but because imho Kyosho is since the mid 90s not what it used to be, at least in their car range. Except in 1:8 there is nothing spectacular, or even competitive... Where are the famous old 1:10 buggies, or even some succesfull tourers?

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Kyosho are current World Champions in 1/8th on road, 1/10th IC on road and yet again 1/8th off road. Kyosho is currently in better shape than it has ever been. Kyosho are still successful in 1/10th off road in Japan.

Kyosho has ignored 1/10th off road elsewhere in the world since the mid 90s when the racing class died off and everyone moved to touring cars. This is mainly to do with the local distributors rather than Kyosho. For example in the uK Ripmax was the distributor but Kyosho Optimas and Mids only had an unofficial race team supported by Helger Racing as Helger did not import a buggy themselves. When Losi produced their first buggy Helger moved over to that and Kyosho had no race team.

Ripmax supported a race team in the early 90s and the Lazer was very successful. The car worked well and had a good race team with top drivers, even winning the European Championships.

2wd was a different matter. The Triumph and Pro-X just did not work on uK tracks and Ripmax did not have any development engineers to improve the handling, the drivers had to do it themselves in their spare time. Meanwhile Schumacher had their factory at their disposal, Associated and Losi had full time staff to sort their cars. They might have been successful back in Japan but they did not stand a chance of being competitive in the uK.

As the team drivers were tied to using whatever Ripmax supplied they drifted over to Schumacher or Associated/Yokomo where there was much better support. As 1/10th off road died off in the mid 90s Ripmax just seemed to forget about Kyoshos buggies, I presume they might have been more interested if Kyosho constantly brought out new cars rather than just developing their buggies.

In the uS Associated and Losi more or less have the 2wd market sewn up, no foreign manufacturer has sold a lot of 2wd kits. 4wd is seen as a minority class, especially as the kits were so expensive compared to the home grown 2wd cars. When Losi came out with the XX4 it was as if a new class was born, even though there were already plenty of other 4wds around. Kyosho drivers in the uS have never had much support from the distributors, most Kyosho buggies raced were sponsored by motor or battery suppliers. Even when Joel Johnson won the world championship with an ultima he was working for Trinity, as Trinitys main competition was from Reedy he couldn't be seen running an RC10.

Kyosho did build a good tourer with the KX-One - typical Kyosho 'out of the box' thinking. Here in the uK you could order one from Ripmax but they never supported it at the track. Without any backing there was no race team to develop it and it never got a chance. The fact it was different put a lot of people off. A similar example is that I race an RcLab touring car which handles great and is competitive but everyone tells me I will never get anywhere with it and should get....(fill in with whatever is winning this month in the hands of a factory backed team)

It is more the case that Kyosho have finally decided to enter the electric competition sections worldwide rather than they are coming back.

The old Tamtechs might be faster than the first Mini-Zs but the Tamtechs never took off. Neither did Kyoshos 1/20th scale cars either, the small scale cars were just ahead of their time.

Kyosho has really created the small scale R/C section all by themselves and they are very popular with a huge range of cars and parts available. If they can shift loads of Mini-Zs they do not need to spend time and money developing 1/10th cars.

A (new design)TA05 might beat a (old design)Pureten but a simlar comparison would be a Tamiya TGX10 against a Kyosho V-one RRR. No contest there.

[RETRO R/C 59]

Thanks Terry - you said exactly what I was saying but more detail...........(Cheers).

To be fair - Mugen just won the 1/8th world off road 1/8th title from Kyosho after a 12 year dominance by Kyosho.

Like I have always said - Kyosho were never particularly good at marketing - at least until the last 5 years anyway. Sadly this has meant little or no support of their competition product in countries other than Japan and Australasia(not that you could call the support we get here terrific either).

With Kysosho getting super serious now with uS headquarters and rumour of the same in Europe coming - Kyosho is making a true effort to be "smarter".............they have learnt from the masters of marketing - Tamiya. (seeeeee - I can say Tamiya in a positive sentence!![])

Cheers

Darryn

[DJTheo 2]

quote:As for being "anti Tamiya" - with regards to competition classes - I not so much against Tamiya, as I love to see them up there. What gets me is that they take the credit for the world titles - yet did not design the 415 at all...............I dont think they are toys - I love Tamiya as much as the next man - badword - it makes up the bulk of my collection!! I like them for a completely different reason to my Kyosho kits and cars though.

I did not take anything personally at all mate - nor, I am sure, did you intend it to be taken that way.....just thought I would remark on those couple of things.

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Darryn, of course I didn't mean you, as you really know the RC history and all pros and cons of each company, sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. What gets me are want tobe racers on most other forums and race tracks who change opinions like diapers (they supposedly always were with the current winner side) and live and believe only hypes and claim to feel differences from blue to red eloxated parts but have basic setup mistakes and can't drive without one crash per round. until a real good driver comes to their local club with a completely different setting then they most have, outclasses them and then they change 180° and blame that it was due to a faulty patch of tires but never admit they have no clue how to setup a car.

Cheers

[RETRO R/C 59]

LOL - you made it clear mate - just wanted to make sure you didnt think I was over re-acting!!

Could not agree more on the racer front.......to easy to blame a car or battery than it is to admit you cant drive for peanuts.......

Cheers mate

Darryn

[Wandy 1527]

So Darryn, how do you think the '80s Kyoshos would fair against modern competition, and which do you think was the most competitive Kyosho buggy from that decade?

[DJTheo 2]

Well, they were already loosing in mid 80s against the Asso RC10 and later against the Schumacher Cats, so I don't think they would stand a chance today against a XXXS or B4 with equivalent drivers, but the most important is the driver, a really good driver would almost win with a Striker against normal drivers, like back in the early tourer times a guy who just built out of the box a stock TA01 the night before the race and overlapped very modified ones. [8D] But since Darryn is closer to the tracks am sure he has more (and correcter) stuff to say [8D]

Cheers

[RETRO R/C 59]

It is funny you know - the Lazer is actuially still a VERY competative car. I ran mine last year against all the modern top cars and SMOKED em!! Especially on the rough stuff...........so I dont think Kyosho have ever really left the race track - just that importers have dropped the ball when it came to support of the race end of the market. The triumph won the world title in 1987 - so I dont think they were uncompetative then either.

All in all - I think it is good for the electric scene to have Kyosho coming on strong again. Can only make off road stronger.

Cheers

Darryn

[bender 0]

quote:Originally posted by RETRO R/C

It is funny you know - the Lazer is actuially still a VERY competative car. I ran mine last year against all the modern top cars and SMOKED em!! Especially on the rough stuff...........so I dont think Kyosho have ever really left the race track - just that importers have dropped the ball when it came to support of the race end of the market. The triumph won the world title in 1987 - so I dont think they were uncompetative then either.

All in all - I think it is good for the electric scene to have Kyosho coming on strong again. Can only make off road stronger.

Cheers

Darryn

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Not being picky Darryn but the Triumph never won the 87 worlds as it wasn't released until 1991!

The car you're thinking of is the ultima, which won the 87 Worlds in Romsey, driven by Joel Johnson, though the car was highly modified (as were all cars of that time).

Gotta agree 'bout the Lazer though, the old car still has what it takes, and Lazers have made the A-Main of the Japanese Nationals as recently as last year! [^]

I've got a ZXR which I built up to race against the more modern cars, added all the good gear to it, but unfortunately off road is pretty quiet here in Brisbane [|)] - though the new ZX5 looks very tempting []

[RETRO R/C 59]

LOL - typo - yes - uLTIMA.....was looking at my triumph when I wrote the post. Got both cars..........

Will probably be leaving the Kysoho team by the end of next month - so sadly wont be running the new electrics.......shame - I love the Kysoho product.

Cheers

Darryn

[stulec52 50]

oooo, but going where ?

[RETRO R/C 59]

I am already Running X-Ray for electric. I am probably going to run the XRay 1/8th buggy.

Have possibilities with both Serpent and "Powers" racing for 1/8th on road. I have no problems with power for nitro racing - I am on the RB team here - so power is definately no problem.

I am not going to run nitro tourer at a serious level any more - both lack of time and lack of funds......nitro tourer is REDICULOUS when it comes to costs(even as a "sponsored" driver)!! 1/8th is actually way cheaper - and faster! [}]

Nothing will change my love of the product from Kysoho - just time to move on I think. Who knows - maybe something will change in the next couple of weeks that will encourage me to stay.

cheers

Darryn