rtr will degrade kit detail in the years to come

[SimonDM 10]

Hi there, I am just getting back into r/c after many, many years, and while researching new kits for purchase, I realized that rtr kits are taking over. I searched several local shops for a TXT-1, eight in fact, and they either did not stock it, or tried to convince me to purchase a Traxxas. Where is the pleasure in assembly? The part that I always enjoyed the most about r/c, was putting the kit together, and the more complex the better! This fact is what I have always loved about Tamiya, the quality and detail of their kits. I hope that there is always atleast one kit in the line-up that fills that spot.

[El Mexican 1]

I started a similar thread a week ago.

Almost everyone here agreed that building any Tamiya kit is just as fun as playing with the finished car, if not more. (Some club memebers even recommended some really tough builds if you like a challenge).

The thing is, this is an industry dominated by trends and fashions. To survive, companies have to constantly bring out newer, different products. These trends are sometimes aimed for begginers (RTR,ARR, etc).

Its not that bad, though. Even Tamiya has started a couple of fashions: monster trucks (Blackfoot), road sedans (TA01) and cheap 2wd buggies (Hornet, Falcon,Grasshopper) all started with Tamiya and other companies followed suit.

[pauljmuk 1]

I agree - especially the harder the better.

In fact, If I buy something in the future off ebay that doesnt need restoration job, I will, as a matter of course, get hold of manual, strip it down totally and then rebuild. Not quite as nice as doing it from NIB, but still fun.

In addition, the building process is educational - as to how your car is working for you. About to buy a MadBull for my 8 year old son, and I insist that he is putting most of the thing together. Some parents would just pick up a rtr off the shelf and stick it in the kids hand - for me, I want the whole process to involve him - that way he may respect the car more, and certainly understand that if something breaks, he knows what it is, where it is, and how to get at it.

Throwaway society though I'm afraid - buy cheap, use, break, throw out. Maybe (and I stress I am not suggesting that Tamiya are doing this) there is better return on the rtr's. OK, on a build it yourself, Tamiya get a limited time in which to sell spares. Thereafter, when model deleted and spares are being traded on ebay and here, they get nothing. Wouldnt they rather we spent our cash on another car?

[Shodog 1835]

I disagree, RTR's serve a very useful purpose. They enable people to get into R/C easily. the thing is if they like it, they are going to buy more kits and continue on.

How likely would someone continue buying kits if they never even finished their first kit?

As for Detail, realize that most who buy an RTR are beginners. easily replaced, rugged lexan shells is where it's at. A Hard body would be destroyed by the end of the first day.

Jim

[Sisi-driver 0]

RTR are good for people who are relatively unknown with building cars.

Toying arround with Hop-ups, spare-parts etc. makes it easy for newbies to finally make the big step and build a car from out-of-the-box.

[ShenUK 1]

ok RTR is for the beginners you say [:0] ok I agree as a first car as you'll need to let them lean how to control the car/buggy/truck

I've spent a day in a model shop and even when I'm in there for 20 minutes + and you see the kids looking at all the kits you build and RTR, QD kits

here's how I see it

the kids pick the build it your self kit (not that many in shops[!]) the (Lazy) parents buy them the QD or RTR as there's to much time involved in building a kit

when I have kids and need to get them there first (proper) car if RTR & QD are only available I'll strip it and sit with them to build it as everyone has said there's the fun in building them

I do think tamiya should re-relese some of the older kits or bring out some new kits

[tamiyastriker 0]

The main thing I dislike about RTR cars is that you have to pay extra for things like Radios just to get the car you want.

I am still living in a dream world waiting for another company to come out with a Emaxx clone with ESC for the same price range though [)]

[jozza 1]

I think that with the scale of production, the extra you pay for the radio gear probably doesn't amount to more than a few pounds/dollars on top of the kit. Take the HPI Savage and the SS for example, the extra price for the RTR version gives you a lot more than the radio, and for not much more price.

I prefer kits, but some people prefer to get straight into the action, and also there's the added bonus of knowing it's been put together correctly.

What I do dislike is the QD cars, people see the Tamiya kits, like them, buy the QD because it looks the same to a beginner, and they get a car which is more poorly specified than the kit they saw.

[SimonDM 10]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a QD kit?

Some very good points have been brought up, sorry I didn't see the post last week, but I did do a search. Yes, I believe that there is a place for RTR kits, and that would be your local Radio Shack. I just don't think that a company like Tamiya which has built its reputation on high-quality build kits should move into such a market, although economics will probably dictate otherwise. Tamiya obviously can not sit idly by while the market changes, I am just saying that I hope the entire lineup doesn't move that direction.

[Shodog 1835]

quote:Originally posted by SimonDM

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a QD kit?

Some very good points have been brought up, sorry I didn't see the post last week, but I did do a search. Yes, I believe that there is a place for RTR kits, and that would be your local Radio Shack. I just don't think that a company like Tamiya which has built its reputation on high-quality build kits should move into such a market, although economics will probably dictate otherwise. Tamiya obviously can not sit idly by while the market changes, I am just saying that I hope the entire lineup doesn't move that direction.

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QD is tamiya's quick drive models. while these use hobby quality bodies, the chassis's are terribly on par with Nikko and other radio shack junk.

I can't imagine the whole line going to RTR. A few really popular models will. The market has changed RTR is here to stay and for a company to compete they need to be flexible in their offerings.

I think it's snobby to preach about the evils of RTR's. maybe all of us here on TC love to build these cars but not all consumers do.

a little bit before Christmas I was in a hobby shop. the staff were really busy so I helped out a customer buy an rtr pajero. he was buying it for his 8 year old. sure it would have been a nice father son project but not everyone or any 8 year old has the patience and skill to build a truck.

RTR's are great for getting people into the hobby. once their in and they like, they will buy more and eventually build their own kits.

Jim

[DJTheo 2]

quote:but not everyone or any 8 year old has the patience and skill to build a truck

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Patience and skill can be teached, if you offer though Playstations and RTR this will never happen as people tend to chose the way of the less resistance. Noone is born with skill, you don't really need it to build a beginner kit from Tamiya with those great instructions and part fitting, I remember having no problems building my Holiday Buggy when I was 9.

Cheers

[Igottamiya 0]

There is a definite demand and market for RTRs.

Just the other day I was in a hobby shop and a lady brought in a Tamiya kit asking if the shop would build it for her son. They wanted about £70 for the build. RTRs and and ARR's are a great tool for introducing people to our hobby/sport.

Riz

[SJoerD 2]

quote:Originally posted by DJTheo

quote:but not everyone or any 8 year old has the patience and skill to build a truck

id="quote">id="quote">

Patience and skill can be teached, if you offer though Playstations and RTR this will never happen as people tend to chose the way of the less resistance. Noone is born with skill, you don't really need it to build a beginner kit from Tamiya with those great instructions and part fitting, I remember having no problems building my Holiday Buggy when I was 9.

Cheers

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I agree. People are growing 2 left hands these days. Being a bit of a handyman is getting a rare skill but perhaps an oportunity for me... []

I had no problems building my Fighter Buggy and my King Blackfoot when I was younger, but that's because I have a big brother and a father that insisted to build it - and I am just a too litle guy to say no... Now I am building my own kits though - and I made up for it by at least RE-building them myself. []

To me, the build and the paint are some of the greatest joys in this hobby - but that seems to be out of fashion. Many (beginning) people want RTR kits because they can't wait to run ASAP. It's mostly these beginning people where the market lays nowadays.

Many manufacturors don't listen to the voice of skilled modellers, but to coins in the wallets of newbies. Luckily, Tamiya makes at least some exceptions to that rule, just look at the 1/16 tracktor trucks and tanks. [8D]

[The Slayer 0]

Dont like rtr/qd takes the fun out of it, i like something that is challenging and takes yonks to build - keeps me busy [:I] yup too many people these days are ruled by playstations, TV, and PC Games, quick easy fix... no brain cells required.... If you go to an LHS and lurk in the corner on a saturday i guarantee that baseball capped spotty youth will come in buy a Nitro Turbo nutter with his birthday money and go away thinking how they can make it Super Turbo Nitro nutter monster without the faintest idea how to go about it.... or why they bought it [8)] just coz it's a macho thing to do, i was lurking round the paints (deciding what colour scheme - as you do) for about an hour in my local LHS, he sold 3 turbo nutters and not one DIY kit [xx(] [?] its an 'easy' sale for the shop!!! which is OK, until they discover girls, footy 1.1 cars and beer, then thats that.... I would love to build a nitro kit, for the challenge aspect, just rarely see them at an affordable price... [xx(] I remember when you could build your own AM radio kits, and listen to the Top 40 on a sunday - on 'one i made myself' great fun and gives you a sense of acheivement - i did..... rant over []

[Spacemate 0]

RTR might simplise(I think I made a new word) the low end of the R/C market, like the TT01s, but I can't see the detail on higher end cars like the TA series or 41x's being effected.

[Cul-Tech 0]

I always get a kick out of going to my LHS and seeing some grown man come in with some nitro with a broken A-arm not knowing what to do! He must go home then and sit down to pee!

Whatever.[]

Mike.[8D]

[pauljmuk 1]

Sorry, but just not convinced that in majority of cases, buying a RTR will then give you the incentive to go and build your own.

Young 14 year old, bit of cash, buys RTR, so he can use it that day. If he gets fun out of it, he may buy another, but why buy a build it yourself, surely gonna go for a bigger and better RTR

I think times have changed - when I was a kid, spending your pocket money on an airfix kit, and spending a week building it was cool. Just dont see that happening now. (in fact I went into ToysRUs with my son looking for an airfix kit (his first). Didnt sell them. Nuff said. In fact the spotty clerk I spoke to looked blank. (hey dont they all?)

Still, he wants a Tamiya for his forthcoming birthday, and I have talked it through with him (getting Mad Bull)

a)If he gets one, he has to build it (with me by his side of course (he is due to be 8)

If he breaks it, then we take it apart, find whats broken - and he needs to use pocket money to get parts

c) If he wants to hop up, he saves and gets them and he fits the parts.

He agrees, he loves it. I got him to fit new Alu wheel hex nuts to my Baja Champ the other day, and he had fun.

Obviously he will need help with some of it. Now he might get bored in 6 months, as kids do. But he would equally get bored with a RTR then, and wouldnt have had the fun and challenge of the build.

[mud4fun 1696]

I don't have any issue with RTR's as such, in fact I bought my daughter an XB mad bull as her first car.

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The only issue I have is the fact that so many sellers on ebay list them and 'forget' to mention that they are XB or RTR....How many times I have looked at a thundershot to find it is a RTR which is COMPLETELY differtent to a kit based thundershot not even remotely the same! I feel sorry for joe public who buys one thinking it a proper Tamiya only to be very disappointed with what they receive. I have also seen many QD cars up for sale on ebay listed as Tamiya kits......they aren't even the same scale?!*

[pauljmuk 1]

ooh thats bad - hadnt considered that possibility when doing my eaby trawls. Mind you, I try to avoid any sales that dont show a pic of the car with body off.

There was a monster beetle on ebay recently, that showed the shell on top of the box - with details saying it was a monster buggy, and parts needs gluing and dusting. Still couldnt work out if it was just the shell or not!

[mud4fun 1696]

Thing is Paul, they do list them with pictures but the pictures are just poor enough or taken from just the right angle to hide the chassis details so that it looks like a Monster Beetle, ClodBuster or thundershot etc. Some are clearly obvious - saw a 'ClodBuster' advertised the other day and the chassis wasn't even Tamiya it was a Nikko or similar with the cheap one piece chassis but the body was the spitting image of a Tamiya Clodbuster......Buyers Beware!

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To a point I would tend to agree with the original point of this topic, RTR will degrade kit detail for one good reason - market demand. If consumers (most of the general public excluding us die hard TC members) don't have the time, patience or ability to build a kit and they readily buy RTR's then demand will fall off considerably for kits and LHS etc will npot stock them and manufacturers will not make them. This isn't an exageration - I have seen it happen in many other market places, the era of model making and kit builds is sadly over because todays youth aren't that interested. Lets face it they are surrounded with a society that places more value on quantity and speed over quality, just like they want fast food they want RC cars that work out of the box without having to wait until it is built. sad but true. My own daughter is just as bad, no patience and an attention span measured in seconds.....[]

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There will always be a market for kits but a much reduced one so kit prices will go up accordingly.

[The Slayer 0]

Hmmmm shaky ground here, i sit down to pee, but i know what to do with broken A arms..... BUY ANOTHER RTR!! []

quote:Originally posted by Cul-Tech

I always get a kick out of going to my LHS and seeing some grown man come in with some nitro with a broken A-arm not knowing what to do! He must go home then and sit down to pee!

Whatever.[]

Mike.[8D]

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[stulec52 50]

I do not see what people have against ready to runs...

For every one that is sold, you have 1 more person into the hobby, and if like me they are then so hooked that over 20 years later they are still enjoying the hobby what could possibly be wrong with that???

RTR's, Micros, Mini whatevers, it's all good for the hobby.

[spice 1]

For me, building my first Tamiya car which was the FAV with my dad during Christmas of 1984 was very memorable and joyful and I will remeber this always.

Now that I have children of my own I enjoy spending quality of time with them building RC kits. I guess some parents can't be bothered to build one or are too busy? Any adult with an average IQ should be able to build RC car from kit.

I love building rc kits but I also own several RTR kits especially Nitro ones.

spice []

[mud4fun 1696]

I'd say that building and modifying the cars was about 80% of the enjoyment of the hobby for me and running them is only as enjoyable because I'm running something I built and tuned. I get no enjoyment from opening an RTR and driving it - very boring. Even my daughter got bored of hers within days.

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RTR's are simply toys and I've been a Tamiya RC enthusiast for 25 years and I clearly remember the good old days when Tamiya were proud to use the phrase 'toys they're not'

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RTR's are for the most part inferior to kit builts, poor design, poor quality materials and poor performance and in Tamiyas case grossly overpriced. If I buy another RTR for the kids it'll be a nikko or similar as you get far more car for your money, RTR's are marketed for kids and any parent will agree that the more features the better as it keeps boredom at bay longer. Many of the cheaper makes provide lights and sounds as standard, some even have working indicators, brake lights, engine noises etc, all great fun for the kids. What do you get from a Tamiya RTR for double the price??? Sorry, I accept that RTR's have there place as all toys have but I think most here will agree that RC kits are in a different league to toys and the enjoyment of the RC experience relies little on actually running the cars, badword, there are many in this club who enjoy just looking at a NIB kit [][]

[DJTheo 2]

quote:For every one that is sold, you have 1 more person into the hobby, and if like me they are then so hooked that over 20 years later they are still enjoying the hobby what could possibly be wrong with that???

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If they bring persons to the hobby it is great [^], but have a feeling that those RTR buyers, get bored easily too and find a new toy/hobby as soon as the RTR breaks down and can't or doesn't know how to repair. I believe the "everything ready served" generation will be never attracted as much as we were, computer games is their thing, plug and play [][V]