naming and shaming

[Lemming 48]

Good point.  I actually normally do the opposite.  I get things in that interest me (normally in a poor state of repair), then I get any bits needed to finish them.  I will then run the item for a bit, and decide whether to keep it (have to then sell an existing one due to space) or sell it on instead.

Never really seem to end up making a profit, but I have the pleasure of building & running different set-ups to see what I want to keep in the long run.

A perfect example is the Manta Ray / Blazing Star stuff I am playing with at present.  Building a twin deck chassis to play with alongside my Top Force and go from there.  **** good fun.  Might be an interestin alternative to my wifes Blazing Star.

Most of the members I have traded with have supplied me with parts left to finish projects in this way.  At the same time, I can understand people breaking cars up if it helps to fund their hobby, and to be honest I think as long as they are up-front with it there should be no harm in it really.  Your choice to sell it to this person knowing what will happen to it.  More annoying is when they say nothing about doing this.  Very upsetting to know you put effort into a vehicle for it to be chopped up without you knowing.

Cheers

Steve

[netsmithUK 488]

I can understand that you don't want to see your pride and joy being broken for scrap, it nots something that you should condemn any one for doing. Basically once you sell something thats it - you have given up on it, all your rights, all your feelings count for nothing. At the point of taking the money you washed your hands of it. You just have to walk away. Its then the buyers to do anything that they want with. If you don't like them by all means don't sell to them but you've really not got any rights to try and govern what they do with it once you have swapped it for the money or whatever.

Its no different to any other type of sale. You sell your house, you can't go compaining about the buyer because he buys it, strips out your favourite carpets, wardrobes, wall paper and that rock garden you spent all last summer building and then redevelops it as flats and makes a car parking space where your fish pond used to be.

If you feel so strongly about anything you own, you should either not sell it, or make sure you at least do as much investigation into who you sell it too to find out what he's going to do with it. Even then there is nothing you can do about it. I don't see it as the buyers obligation to tell you what he has instore for it - how many times have any you bought things through the paper for peanuts, do you tell the owners that its worth much more or you have plans to sell it later on ebay for a stack of cash when you get bored with it?

Trying to keep track of what happens to your sales is just going to make you bitter. I sold my very first model a sand scrocher to another member, when getting back into the hobby,  after keeping it for decades. That member promptly took it, took what he wanted from it and then sold on the rest as bits, its probably scattered around the world now. This was my pride and joy as a boy. That member is now one of my best friends on the club I don't hold it against him at all.

At the end of the day if any model is broken down into parts and sold on, it going to enthusaists, just lots of different ones. Back to what I was saying earlier, every person that buys one of those parts is glad it was broke up.

We talked about having a Tamiyaclub registration scheme a while back, like car registration where every car in the club gets a certificate, which gets passed on and updated everytime it changes hands with a view to giving a history of that car. We shelved the idea in the end though as it soon became apparent from feedback that virtually no model stays as a whole for very long, Even new built kits get parts swapped as better painted bodies are found, or slightly nicer wheels etc.

I say let go and move on.

Chris

[Lemming 48]

Fair point Chris.

Only discussed it further as personally I prefer a buyer to tell me when they are going to do this (responding to the earlier comment by another member).  As you said, it then gives you the option as to whether to sell or not.

To be honest, if you decide to sell something that is really the end of it, as you say.  Still love trading on this place.  I have received many parts for free to finish projects in the past and this week have been able to send some free bits to a fellow TC member who is in need (for the first time, due to my small stock of parts).

Cheers

Steve

[MAD ANDY 0]

AH WELL the thread has disversified, at least my name has been left out for a few comments....

 

oh ******, dam.......its in there again

 

******

 

 

[Rothmans Racing Team 0]

Loaded,

 

How can you criticize others?  You can't even spell "FAVORS." [8-)] []

 

Josh

[bangstick 0]

Just to add to Rothmans Racing Teams comment on opinions, yes they are like --------s. Everyone has one and they usually stink. I also was loving the p------ in one hand wishing in the other... Great phrase that! never heard it before, gonna be using it a lot lol []

[Rothmans Racing Team 0]

Bangstick,

Nice to know that not only am I full of  ****, but I'm also full of great expressions. I think that one may be American.  I love the British expression "Rare as rocking horse poop."  Or the one about "As easy to find as hen's teeth." 

Oh well, off topic.  Maybe we should start a thread about great expressions.

Cheers,

Josh

[bangstick 0]

Another favourite, dont p--- on my head and tell me its raining LMAO!

[loaded 4]

'If my grandmother has balls she would be my grandfather', is a favourite of mine.  I believe it is translated from Yiddish.

P.

[loaded 4]

Well, just as I suspected, people love to complain, but when it comes to actually doing something about it constructively, well, some people throw their toys out of the pram, others sulk.  Some actually work towards a solution (oh wait a minute, silly me....)

I am considering starting a new thread:

Nightmare cheating lying customers.

The unreasonable expectations of customers, the tricks and cheats (why is sniping not considered as bad as shill bidding, for example?) the lies about deliveries, the use of feedback to lever refunds when everything was done correctly.

I would be interested to see what everyone thinks about that.

I notice with regret that Mad Andy is giving up the business of selling models and spares.  You may consider this a victory.  Not so.  In my humble opinion, Andy, whilst frank and forthright, does a good service supplying cheap parts to loads of Tamiya enthusiasts.  You can't please everyone all of the time, but he has a fairly good rating.  This is a loss to all you customers, as there aren't people as good out there to replace him.  I noticed his rise and success over a period of months and his sales volumes were good.  Sometimes customer expectations are ridiculous, for example, I recently received positive feedback from a client in Canada stating that the goods were fine, only shipping took a long time.  Well, ****** me sideways if he didn't choose the cheap option and go for surface mail!  What did he think?  Did he expect the item to go over on a hovercraft?  Sometimes I wonder if clients really see where their suppliers are before hitting the cheap ship option and then wondering why it took 6 weeks to arrive.  At least this guy is a nice guy and left positive feedback, imagine what would have happened if I had a negative one from him!

So the net result?  Well, apart from possibly no longer shipping to US and Canada, I may consider not offering cheaper shipping options at all.  That way, once again, you the customer lose.

Paul.

[1proteus1 0]

Well i dont consider it a result to andys own admissions (on another thread) he was breaking ebay rules with spam words in his adds he knew the rules and as a seller and buyer you should stick to the rules of the site in question . and if you break rules you pay the price everything in life has concequences if you cant handle it dont put yourself in that position . this thread had absolutely nothing to do with it andy blames ebay . and it would seem andy is chucking his toys  outta his pram cause he cant get his own way thats my opinion , as far as sniping and shill bidding shill bidding is done under the sellers authorisation and this is just sellers trying to inflate the price and the shill bidders have no intention of purchasing the items , sniping is done by buyers because they want the item , and does it really matter if you put the bid on with 7 days to go or 7seconds everyone does it to varying degrees just some are better than others (or just have more time to spend at the computer . Also its still in the spirit of fair competition and as long as you bid with the intention of buying and paying within the alloted time i cant see the problem with it , even as a sniper myself i lose more than i actually win , i think half the fun of ebay (also adictiveness) is sniping in the dying seconds of an auction .

[OCD 514]

I don't get it Paul-

Nobody here wanted to put Andy out of business.  Besides that, if

you read Andy's explanation, he himself points out that he was a victim

of eBay's authoritarian keyword spamming rules.  Also, may I point

out, that everyone that contributed to this thread was 'working towards

a solution.' Andy included.

As I see it, eBay is largely to blame for a lot of things, and clearly

their system is far from perfect.  My point is that this

discussion was not about eBAy's performance, but the performance of a

particular trader here on TC.  I know that some may disagree that

this is the core of the thread, but after reading this through

carefully several times, I feel that this is largely the point that

Huff and others were trying to express.

Sniping.

You probably should start another thread about it, but I will say this, briefly:

Snipe bidding is Proxy bidding.  The only difference between the

two is the time that the bid is entered.  Late bidders are smart

bidders.  They are putting in a proxy just like everyone else,

only they are competing against fewer people.  (Most bids go in

early, and the proxy system raises to match the subsequent bids.) 

Paul, I am sorry to here that you are having such issue with eBay. My

hope is that you can separate TC trades from this poor experience that

you are having with eBAy.

[OCD 514]

(Looks like Proteus beat me to it - but I think we agree.)

[1proteus1 0]

GEEEE OCD someone agreeing with me lol well i do agree with you im not used to people agreeing with me lol

[loaded 4]

Shill bidding is a method used by unscrupulous vendors to increase the value of their items.  If they increase them to a value which has already been bid by someone, then I see no difference between that and sniping, which is used to whittle the price to an unbeatable one in time for no one to beat it.  Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here, they are both as bad as each other!

Proteus, don't get me wrong, I agree with you partly, neither should do either, but unfortunately it is human nature for you to want to get something cheap and for the seller to want to sell something for more.

That is why I took the decision a little while ago to sell in a shop environment for 99% of my listings.

You are a good guy, Proteus, please don't think I am bashing your ideas, you are also a customer, we have chatted in the wee small hours and I even mention you in one of my previous posts as a beacon to other users (you can find it if you like!) but we must disagree on this one.  That's the beauty of this, we can disagree

For the record, I have discussed this with Andy, in fact since my postings he and I have had quite a few chats.  He is PERFECTLY happy starting another eBay shop, no one could ever stop him, or for that matter even match him with the new account if he did.  That is not the problem.  He is simply disillusioned with the whole thing.  For that, I don't blame him.

Paul.

[Tinno 0]

 I may consider not offering cheaper shipping options at all.  That way, once again, you the customer lose.

Paul.

I quite agree, although I have not sold anything on the bay, there would be very few instances where I would not dispatch using registered, or signed for postage.

I am so surpirsed that so many sellers see it as an option rather than a necessity.

1) no matter what you write on your auction the seller IS responsible if the goods don't turn up.

2) The buyer agrees to pay the shipping charges, when they bid, and win.

From a sellers perspective, this is a win win situation. Clearly explain that all packages will require a signature, to ensure that the buyer gets the goods they pay for.  State no exceptions, no negotiations after auction has ended. etc.

 

 

[loaded 4]

Unfortunately you are wrong for two reasons, one legal, one financial:

1) You are only required to prove that you have sent the items, after that, the buyer is on their own.  If they chose a method without insurance and tracking, tough.

2) Financially buyers see shipping as part of the cost of the goods.  Whilst this may be fair on a level playing field, the world just isn't like that, so often when up against a number of choices to purchase an item with various shipping choices, they chose the cheapest.  If the item doesn't arrive, so long as the seller proves the postage, again, tough.

The buyer chooses to participate in an auction which doesn't offer insurance on any shipping choice.  Making that choice, so long as the seller proves sending, the buyer has no recourse.  Choice is the key here.  I offer choices as to give my sellers the right to save money and take a risk, based on the knowledge that the item may not arrive.

There is a lot of nonsense talked about selling and buying.  One thing I have heard most often is that you can take at item back if you have purchased it.  Not so, law states that any item purchased may only be returned if faulty.  If it doesn't fit, or some such, or the buyer has changed their mind or got cold feet, as I have said before : tough.

We live in a world of two parallels, that of the retail shop, which has high prices and offers services and refunds when they are not legally obliged and the other world, one of internet sales and international globalised markets.  Tread the latter with care if you know not what you do.  The world of the former does not compare to that of the latter.  What do you expect, there is one thing that has always, is always and will forever always be true:

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Paul.

[OCD 514]

Shill bidding is a method used by unscrupulous

vendors to increase the value of their items.  If they increase

them to a value which has already been bid by someone, then I see no

difference between that and sniping, which is used to whittle the price

to an unbeatable one in time for no one to beat it.  Sorry, but I

have to disagree with you here, they are both as bad as each other!

Proteus, don't get me wrong, I agree with you partly, neither should

do either, but unfortunately it is human nature for you to want to get

something cheap and for the seller to want to sell something for more.

That is why I took the decision a little while ago to sell in a shop environment for 99% of my listings.

You are a good guy, Proteus, please don't think I am bashing your

ideas, you are also a customer, we have chatted in the wee small hours

and I even mention you in one of my previous posts as a beacon to other

users (you can find it if you like!) but we must disagree on this

one.  That's the beauty of this, we can disagree

For the record, I have discussed this with Andy, in fact since my

postings he and I have had quite a few chats.  He is PERFECTLY

happy starting another eBay shop, no one could ever stop him, or for

that matter even match him with the new account if he did.  That

is not the problem.  He is simply disillusioned with the whole

thing.  For that, I don't blame him.

Paul.

Well, I think maybe my posts are invisible sometimes. Like I said

previous, this is not a discussion on the merits of eBAy  or eBay

stores.

Your position on sniping is completely uneducated, and I suggest you

better understand the eBay  proxy bidding system before outright

discarding the notion.

Paul - is your gripe against eBay, or those in this thread that have not defended Andy?

I'm not clear?[:^)]

[loaded 4]

Like I said, in a previous post, perhaps I should start a thread about bad buyers, that's all :-)

My subsequent posts have been responses to the position I put in that post earlier today. I never meant it to go off topic, in fact the reverse.

I am not an ebay seller by trade, I also sell on eBay, but not to pay the bills.  My comments are simply observations on the method.  Having been to real auctions (I am a real estate investor) where real money, not pocket money is at stake, the auction doesn't close at a set time, by which all bets are off.  The auction closes when the seller has received the best possible service from the auctioneer by receiving all possible bids before an item sells.  eBay can never, has never, nor never will be able to offer this and as I have stated before is proof of why sniping is as bad as shill bidding.  Just think about it before replying, I emplore you :-)

For the topic, I suggest that if you are interested, seriously interested, PM me and I will start a thread on this very topic.

Paul.

[OCD 514]

I've sent you a PM.

[1proteus1 0]

well people who snipe tend to put the absolute max the want to or can pay ive seen items jump from £200 to £500 in the dying seconds which for the item is far above what they usually make , as a seller of occasional items on ebay ive actually got better prices at peak sniping times than any other time , ebay actually premoted sniping at 1 time by supplying a sniping program  , that is why i time my auctions to end at peak sniping times auction style listings are a bit of a lottery like any auction . if the right buyers dont see your listing your not going to sell and prices fluctuate too much, also as far as shill bidding is concerned it is actually illegal as its fraud against ebay for reserve fee avoidence if you want to get a minimum specific price you should put a reserve on where as sniping isnt the seller comitting fraud

this is going to be my last comment about ebay as this particular thread was about how tc members treat each other anywhere they identify themselves as a tc member

[Lemming 48]

Unfortunately you are wrong for two reasons, one legal, one financial:

1) You are only required to prove that you have sent the items, after that, the buyer is on their own.  If they chose a method without insurance and tracking, tough.

2) Financially buyers see shipping as part of the cost of the goods.  Whilst this may be fair on a level playing field, the world just isn't like that, so often when up against a number of choices to purchase an item with various shipping choices, they chose the cheapest.  If the item doesn't arrive, so long as the seller proves the postage, again, tough.

The buyer chooses to participate in an auction which doesn't offer insurance on any shipping choice.  Making that choice, so long as the seller proves sending, the buyer has no recourse.  Choice is the key here.  I offer choices as to give my sellers the right to save money and take a risk, based on the knowledge that the item may not arrive.

There is a lot of nonsense talked about selling and buying.  One thing I have heard most often is that you can take at item back if you have purchased it.  Not so, law states that any item purchased may only be returned if faulty.  If it doesn't fit, or some such, or the buyer has changed their mind or got cold feet, as I have said before : tough.

We live in a world of two parallels, that of the retail shop, which has high prices and offers services and refunds when they are not legally obliged and the other world, one of internet sales and international globalised markets.  Tread the latter with care if you know not what you do.  The world of the former does not compare to that of the latter.  What do you expect, there is one thing that has always, is always and will forever always be true:

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Paul.

Hi Paul,

I know this is already off topic, but just briefly...

In an ideal world this would work, BUT...  Please note that the number of Ebayers claiming non-payment and then getting refunded through Paypal is rising (many people on here can confirm this).  If you only had to prove postage (legally) then Paypal would not have the recourse of refunding the buyer.  This is why my auctions only offer a tracked postage.  Even on this, the person sending is responsible (Royal Mail will only deal with the sender, not the recipient, for claims).  Regardless of legislation, I do not wish to be caught out by this rather nasty loophole (my T&Cs also state that I will not change postal methods or costs - I apply the cost direct from Royal Mail / Parcelforce and often make a loss on international parcels).

Update:  This hasn't stopped me using ebay or selling internationally (ebay or TC).  As DJTheo says below, just make your costs / T&Cs etc firm and ensure you know the risks and go in with your eyes open!

Steve

[DJTheo 2]

Sorry, but can't see how sinping is bad like shill bidding? Sniping is just bidding as late as possible to possibly not rise the price unneccessary and is totally legal, as there is no difference if you do it manually or automatically. Also in the end the person who bids the maximum gets it, not the one who bids last, so its not unfair and nothing changes. Sniping actually is a good thing as it makes illegal shill bidding from sellers impossible.

Now to the other thing, I am getting tired of posts of people complaining about TC or ebay because of a bad experience they had and repeating they will leave or not sell internationally. Sorry, but those people don't know how to run a business. The rules are clear and predefined, you can't just respect the ones you like. Also if you see a risk you must calculate it in your costs, like also every real store or seller. What do you expect, all the world to be pink and shiny? Personally don't get sad anymore about people who don't want to sell or sell internationally anymore as they loose and not the buyers, as there always be other or new sellers, no one is irreplacable.

Cheers

[Sonic 0]

IMHO

 

The most shocking thing in this thread to me is how it's got so out of hand. We all get non paying bidders it's just one of those things, you simply report it and block the bidder next time, Simple.

I've done dealings with both parties so i can only go on what the outcome was like for me, in this instance i had no major problems. however i did get into some ill feeling from one of the parties about another experiance with him on ebay but that was not related to the above dealing.

The other thing i just can't understand is this alienation towards people who make Tamiya into his or hers on line business, to me it don't matter if the seller buys to sell or has uncovered the parts in his loft after 20 years, if it's the right price then i'll buy it. JR-RC is perhaps the most famous of the Tamiya business on ebay and i imagine that 80% of the members of TC have bought of him (Great shop Jason) but i don't hear anybody moaning about him thats because his items are spot on and the price is always right.

Please don't forget this is just my opinion.