Tamiya and competitive off road racing

[Saito]

 I know this issue has been bantered about before, but why are Tamiya buggies constantly looked down upon in true off road racing?  I noticed this prejudice against their racing efforts early on with the Fox.  When I was young we had a local driver who could consistantly beat the RC10 drivers with his Fox.  Yes the Fox had its quirks (like accessing the radio gear) but it was a fine car in the right hands.  I had little trouble despensing Optima Mids with my Vanquish as long as the track was well groomed (odd, that car had so much rear suspension travel, but not enough in the front).  What was really wrong with efforts like the Astute, Egress, Top Force, etc.?  I think many of Tamiya's racing efforts were only lacking good drivers to put them in the winner circle.  Really, these cars had all the features they needed but drivers just dismissed them because of the stigma that surround Tamiyas when it come to racing.  I note this is extemely odd considering early off road racing was dominated by Tamiya and most racers got their start with Tamiya.

 I will admit Tamiya often missed the mark (the Avante!) but I think some of their efforts were on target.  Its a shame as it appears Tamiya has mostly given up on competitive cars (the coming Dark Impact not withstanding) and has taken to stamping out rather uninspiring lumps based on the same chassis.

[jerrywasaracecardriver]

As far as off road goes, Tamiya has come up with some great designs, but they were incomplete. The top force needed a real chassis mounted aluminum motor mount with proper adjustability. Avante series needed more front suspention, and more robust gearbox workings. After those designs, the rest have been pretty much toys. Astute was good, but its gearbox internals were overweight. Another common handicap for Tamiya Off roaders was choice of resin plastics instead of fiber reinforced plastics. But who cares. Thats all in the past now. I feel that dark impact will bring Tamiya back to its competition roots. Im quite sure that even if Tamiya does not make a bunch of hop ups, the usual aftermarket companies will. Ie Kose, Kawada, gpm, tobee craft.... Lets all just be hopeful that the car is a good initial design, and will be followed by factory support, and possibly even a proper trf variant. I have a dark impact on its way to me, and I intend to race it. If enough people do this, then perhaps the factory will have to support us. Remember the tb01? It was a cheesy plasticy replacement for the aging ta01 02 series. Someone at Tamiya found it had more potential, and so were born all the tb01 hop ups, and then the tb evolution series. I raced a full spec tb01 for a season, and it was fantastic, better in my opinion than the tb evo 1. I could kick myself for selling it. In my own perfect little dream, the dark impact would be followed by a carbon tub chassis, hard suspention set, frp shock towers, trf dampers, gear and clutch options, front drive options(spool, one way)....

[The Dodge]

Well guys, i don't have quite the same knowledge on all the cars tamiya has aimed at the serious racing market. However i remember when i did some club racing years ago one of my good friends campained a Topforce for an indoor season (the standard version not the evo). In his, admittedly good hands, it would regularly beat the lazer zxr, bosscat, yokomo dogfighter, opposition.

Just by watching the car it was obvious the geometry and weight ditribution were spot on. He ran it bog standard, even the kit springs and it was faultless. However there was one achillies heel, namely Tamiyas criminal use of plastic with the comparable strength of warm chocolate!

All the screw threads would strip. The front gearbox casings being the Major headache. They would burst apart because instead of being thru bolted or at least having the bolts in shear, not end stressed they were just held by a few feeble self tappers. There was no slipper clutch to protect the drive line from the shock from landing jumps. And the top section also located the front shock tower so the suspension loads are always trying to lever the casing apart. The plastic motor mount was also a repeated candiate for snapping. Also you had one hit on the red plastic front hubs and then they were game over, either the steering arm broke off or the upright just shattered altogether.

After a while the car was covered in attempted strengthening ideas, and we cleaned out the local model shops of trouble spares, in the end it just wasn't viable to replace half the car after each meet, especially when it was losing results due to failure.

In short, a slight re-design and some proper quality composite plastics would have seen this car go all the way! In reality it was scrap after 6 months

[bender]

In my many years of off-road, one of the most competative years I ever had was when I was running a Top Force in the 4wd Modified class. I racked up several large regional wins with this car, which generally performed flawlessly throughout the 15 months that I campaigned it (92-93).

It was very stong, efficient, and generally handled very well- the only problem being (as other have pointed out), the type of plastic Tamiya would use.

The ABS stuff would just wear too quickly! I didn't have a problem with strength or stripping threads, because with the Top Force you could run the car for months without a rebuild.

I didn't get the chance to run it in our 93 state champs as I was running trucks, but a friend of mine drove his Top Force Evo to 2nd place in 4wd Stock, and my brother took 2nd in 2wd Stock with his Dynastorm, which to this day remains one of the most efficient 2wd's ever built.

It surprised me that after all the development work the UK Tamiya team did (especially Jamie Booth) that Tamiya sort of just disappeared from the racing scene after the Top Force[]

I too have a Dark Impact on order, and my intention is simple - to take the jokes and scorn in my stride (as I did with the Top Force) and then proceed to win races with it, and then see who is smiling []

[terry.sc]

Firstly Tamiya have never been dominant off road since the days of the

SRBs, when the wasn't any competition. As soon as Kyosho brought out

the Scorpion Tamiya were no longer competitive at major events and it

stayed that way until Tamiya UK employed Jamie Booth.

Throughout the 80s Tamiya sold more buggies than anyone else and most

clubs had loads of racers using Frogs, the only reason being the

original RC10 cost 3 times the price. At least with the RC10 you could

win national events with the car straight from the box. A Frog needed

either a whole pile of hop ups adding or having half the car replaced

every few meetings. Also should a race car have no dampers on its front

suspension? The RC10 would still beat it. I used to race a heavily

modified Frog, but it took a lot of development work to get it

competitive. It was fast on indoor tracks, but take it off road and

even old Scorpions were faster.

The Fox followed as Tamiyas competition 2wd and was fast in a straight

line, but generally suffered due to the handling, it understeered

everywhere. Lack of suspension adjustment didn't help its cause. At the

time of the Fox adjustable top links were standard on every other car,

the plastic suspension arms were more toy than race car. It also had a

pair of driveshafts that wore out very quickly when using decent race

motors.

The Astute like all Tamiyas was almost there but not quite. A

competition car should come with a solid chassis, usually carbon or

alloy so it doesn't flex. The amount of flex in the Astute and

Dynastorm meant small setup changes made no difference, a requirement

for a race chassis. The overcomplicated suspension design didn't give

any advantage, in fact when Tamiya UK started racing seriously the

first thing the factory drivers did was fit Madcap suspension to their

cars. When an inline battery pack was shown to be the best layout the

Astute had the battery pack across the chassis, and the holders

prevented you from using a side by side race pack.

In 4wd Tamiya brought out the Hotshot range as competition off roaders,

was great until Kyosho produced the Optima which obliterated all

competition, so much that the Optima is the reason we now have separate

2 and 4 wheel drive classes. Before the Optima Hotshots raced against

2wd cars and worked well in slippery conditions, but were beaten by the

RC10s when conditions were good. Optimas just worked well everwhere. As

before the Hotshot needed upgrading to make it competitive (unless you

wanted to change front ends every week) and like the Fox the sealed

radio box didn't make it easy to change crystals, a necessity as there

were only 12 frequencies in total back then. Most competition Hotshots

also had a pile of upgrades added, usually starting with throwing away

the sealed chassis.

The Avante came along and was just overdesigned. Loads of metal ball

joints looked good but meant like most of Tamiyas cars there were loads

of play in the suspension. Hard to make small adjustments when you

could wiggle the wheels all over the place. A proper race car should

have tight tolerances in the suspension design. I was actually

sponsored to run an Avante (free car and all running costs taken care

of!) when it came out. Put my Optima Mid away and raced the Avante. Bad

design meant the front uprights would break when you went near anything

solid - things my Mid would bounce off with no damage as Kyosho used

decent glass filled nylon parts. The first requirement of a race car is

that it should actually finish the race. The Avante worked well on flat

on road tracks, but was terrible off road dcue to the limited

suspension travel. As Saito said he could beat Mids on a groomed track,

racers expect a car to work well everywhere. After a couple of months I

actually gave the Avante back and got out my Mid again, I was instantly

faster.

Tamiya UK got serious and got Jamie Booth, the UKs best and one of the

top drivers in the world, to race for them. He started with an Egress

and got nowhere. An Egress cost almost twice as much as an Optima Mid

or Schumacher Procat, both of which were beating it on the track. Under

those circumstances why would anyone want an Egress? Jamie booth won

the UK national championships, supposedly using a Manta Ray but the car

was a custom built special where all the competition were basically off

the shelf models. There is an article on it in the Vintage Media

section and this car developed into the Top Force. Unfortunately for

Tamiya by the time the Top Force came along Yokomo, Kyosho and

Schumacher had moved on to better cars. As before the Top Force had

Tamiyas plastic shocks, abs parts and loads of play in the suspension.

Why buy one of those when you could get a better equipped race winning

car from the other makes for the same or usually less money. Jamie

Booth left Tamiya to race Kyosho and Tamiyas race team were never as

competitive, proving that the wins were more down to the driver than

the cars.

A really good driver will always make an average car look good, for

example when I was racing the Avante I was competitive, but when

running my Mid I was even faster but more importantly I finished every

race. Tamiya cars made really great club racers, their safe handling

made then good for the average driver but not quite got that edge

needed at bigger meetings where a second or two can make the difference

between an A final or D final.

Tamiyas are looked down on as they always have something that limits

their racing credentials. Limited choice of gear ratios for one, for

example the Top Force has a choice of 6 pinions, a Kyosho Lazer could

run pinions from 14 to 33 teeth, an even wider range of ratios with

different spur gears. Choice of materials and built in slop from the

start, I have a 16 year old Lazer that has less play in the suspension

than new Tamiya kits. The plastics also meant they just aren't durable

enough for racing. Finally the high end Tamiya kit were usually more

expensive than its competitors which doesn't exactly convince people to

go out and buy one.

[jerrywasaracecardriver]

I think alot of these reasons are why my showroom is dominated by Kyosho. I very much prefer fiber reinforced plastic composites for suspention pieces. Also, its best to have adjustable suspention, and solid mounted motor plates. I have no doubt that top force was a great handler. I used an evo for s short time as a street runner, and my only complaint is that the complex drive train made it slow compared to a lazer that I was also running. At the time I was also running a ta01 escort cosworth, and a traxxas 4tech. Now the cheapie 4 tech was fast, and made the ta01 look silly in the speed department. Even with speed tuned gears, and a hot motor, the tao1 was always slower. Its that drivetrain with big fat gears, lots of friction, lots of rotating mass. Looking at the Dark impact, I see a much simpler drive train. Hopefully the rear gearbox is efficient. I dont think we have to worry about the front gearbox. Some people pointed out the lack of suspention mount adjustments, and this may be a bad thing, but who knows. Perhaps Tamiya have got the suspention mount settings perfect?  I race off road indoors now, and the biggest threat to the cars are the walls. Its easy to hit full throttle along the back strait, then smack the wall at the end. Sometimes the car is sideways, wich will test those gearbox suspention mounts when it hits. Oh no, I can just hear the jokes about Impacting the wall. I guess, the plan is to not hit the wall....

[Hibernaculum]

 

[jerrywasaracecardriver]

I think if Tamiya had wanted to produce TOP END off road racers they would have. Check out the current top end tourers. They have it all, composite suspention pieces, aluminum susp mounts, proper motor mounts.. There are so many similarities between touring and 4wd buggy platforms, Im surprized a buggy hasnt cropped up sooner. Who knows, mabe the dark impact will be like the humble tb01, and blossem into something that satisfies even the hardest core racers!

[Saito]

 Thank you for the very insightful answers.  I can honestly agree with all that has been said.  It must have been somewhat disappointing for Tamiya engineers to watch their competitive aspirations shot down time and time again.  But in truth, they never quite "got it" in that arena.  The Avante legacy is an excellent example of Tamiya's determination.  One can tell that ALOT of engineering went into the Avante.  They really did try hard with that car.  It wasn't a Hot Shot clone for sure.  Then it flopped.  Still determined, Tamiya issued forth a raft of hop-ups for every flaw addressed in the press (the high weight, lack of front travel, twitchy handling etc).  The Vanquish incorperated many of these changes in a cheaper package and was sent out as a test balloon of sorts.  Then came the Egress with all the hop-ups in one kit as if to say "see, look we can get it right".  And finally, almost to regain some honor to the original name, the Avante 2001 was brought out as a swan song.  Too bad in the end none of it mattered.

It sure seemed that every once in a while Tamiya would get in a snit and develop a bunch of competitve cars.  They chugged along for years copying the Hot Shot and make fun monster trucks until the Avante.  Then bam!  We get a top 2wd (Astute) a top entry level (Mad Cap, certainly no hornet rehash) a racing truck (King Cab) and a new top 4wd (Egress).  Hopefully the Dark Impact will revive this interesting little trend for Tamiya.

  By the way, it was mentioned that Tamiya's plastic suspension parts had trouble in the rigors of racing (and this is true).  Isn't it odd that Tamiya is quite possibly one of the true experts in the field of plastics and that (though sloppy) the suspensions on their most basic entry level cars are bulletproof?  I mean the Hornet handled horribly but you could beat on that car all day and not really break anything.  I guess it goes to show where Tamiya really shines.

 

[RETRO R/C]

Kyosho may have been brilliant in racing. But to this day, a visit to the Kyosho website can uncover a sense of almost bitterness in the way they talk about their company history...."WE did this, WE did that....". Listen to them, and you get the impression they think they invented, were the first at, and the best at, simply everything. "The top brand in the world today", it reads. Top of what? Top in sales? Wins? Rhetoric?  I don't hate Kyosho whatsoever, but isn't it interesting that their 'History of Kyosho', which includes much on the history of RC in Japan as well, fails to mention the word 'Tamiya' anywhere whatsoever. Yet it openly mentions other brands, like Associated and PB.

Hey H - I luvs ya mate - but I gotta respond to this one! []

I dont think it is bitterness at all. They are very proud of their racing heritage - and they did develop a car way before Tamiya - and have been involved in the competition scene for for longer, have won WAY more championships. They are definately the most successful Japanese competition company in R/C ever. So I think they should "brag" about ! As for not mentioning Tamiya - I dount you will find Tamiya mentioning Kyosho too much either in any of their publications or website.[]

I love Tamiya as much as anyone here - and have some very fond memories of their cars - and can relate totally to the iconic nature of Tamiya products. I have stated many times that Tamiya are MASTER marketers and have always had it over Kyosho in this respect. Kyosho have never really concentrated on the "basher" market until more recently. Their race products are aimed squarely at the race market, you dont find Kysho making outragous claims about their cars being "competition ready" like Tamiya do when they are clearly not.

Even with the "world titles" that Tamiya have captured - the cars were NOT designed by Tamiya - TECH racing designed the first worlds winner and have had a hand in all the cars since! This is NOT A SLUR by me on Tamiya - just simply a fact. We tend to get a bit one eyed when talking about our favourinte brand. Likewise Kyosho has been currently looking at entering the electric touring car scene - and they have a car that looks an awful lot like a "OVA" car form a finge manufacturer in Japan.

Harsh reality is that Tamiya have never made a decent competative vehicle at the highest level that was accessable to ANYONE. This is not a bad thing, Tamiya has concentrated on producing mostly scale models for radio control - rather than producing competition models. Kyosho produce scale models - and absolutely superb ones at that - however their focus with R/C has always been focused on the competition market. That doesnt make them any better or worse than Tamiya as a company.

Two very different companies with very different philosophies and goals.

Cheers

Darryn

[MAD ANDY]

thanks guys.

this has been the best thread i have read on tc.

absolutly brilliant. i will be back to check progress

 

andy

[Hibernaculum]

 

[RETRO R/C]

Of course I can forgive you - but I have to open your other eye! Of course winning isnt everything - but for a competition based arm of a company it is certainly highly important!

In keeping with the original vein of the thread - they (Tamiya) havent because that is not what made or makes them money! They recognised this fact early on.

The point I am trying to make is exactly what you have clarified for me - Kyosho went a totally different way from Tamiya very early. Kyosho and the "other" brands ARE some of the worlds leading brands in terms of outright competition vehicles - and this is what they are good at.

Tamiya are absolutely brilliant marketers and we have them to thank (partly) for the popularity of the R/C Car market. Tamiya are huge because they have the marketing power and always have had. They are extraordinarily clever and deserve credit for that - however they are not the "one and only".

Variety is the spice of life - we cant go down the road and say that Tamiya are to thank for everything as they simply are not. If we were to do that - we would have to credit to the slot car guys for our R/C's - as they started it all!

I am rambling now as well.

I do have to say that we need to remember that they are indeed two very different companies with VERY different products. Kyosho dont do Static kits. They do die cast, R/C cars, Aircraft and other R/C - but they dont do anywhere near the volume of Tamiya and I dont think they need or want too. They are both specialists at what they do!

there we go - off topic again !! LOLOL

Darryn

[DJTheo]

Agree with most of above said stuff, but would like to underline once again that even if it hurts to us all, for Tamiya the RC part is just a small part of their business, while for others like Kyosho its the main part if not 100%. If you read Shunsaku's autobiography, 85% of it are about scale models (where Tamiya is undoubtedly #1 in quality and sales), even about Mini 4WDs there is a whole chapter, while only a couple of pages about RC! But of course, due to their size and power if they wanted now, they could get also top in off road racing like they did in the past years with tourers or nitro trucks and I think the Dark Impact goes into that direction and will be soon followed with some R and TRF versions, fingers crossed.

Cheers

[RETRO R/C]

Agree with most of above said stuff, but would

like to underline once again that even if it hurts to us all, for

Tamiya the RC part is just a small part of their business, while for

others like Kyosho its the main part if not 100%. If you read

Shunsaku's autobiography, 85% of it are about scale models (where

Tamiya is undoubtedly #1 in quality and sales), even about Mini 4WDs

there is a whole chapter, while only a couple of pages about RC! But of

course, due to their size and power if they wanted now, they could get

also top in off road racing like they did in the past years with

tourers or nitro trucks and I think the Dark Impact goes into that

direction and will be soon followed with some R and TRF versions,

fingers crossed.

Cheers

100% Theo,

Static is far and away the bread and butter item for Tamiya. Kyosho

only have the static die cast really - everything else is R/C!

Tamiya are the biggest model manufacturer - and their static mastery is without question.

Cheers

Darryn

[Saito]

 Its interesting to note that Kyosho rarely "went after" the RC markets that Tamiya ruled during the late 80's heyday.  With the exception of the Raider, Kyosho simply went about developing better and better competitive cars.  A.E., Losi, Yokomo etc. were the targets that Kyosho aimed for.  Tamiya on the other hand would stray from their mainsteam "fun" vehicles (their market) and take a swipe at Kyosho every once in a while.  Only once did Kyosho blatantly go after a piece of the Tamiya pie back then when they brought out the Double Dare (failure) and USA-1 to take on the Clod Buster.  I always wondered if there was a rivalry between the two manufacturers but this little episode made me certain of it.

[RETRO R/C]

 Its interesting to note that

Kyosho rarely "went after" the RC markets that Tamiya ruled during the

late 80's heyday.  With the exception of the Raider, Kyosho simply

went about developing better and better competitive cars.  A.E.,

Losi, Yokomo etc. were the targets that Kyosho aimed for.  Tamiya

on the other hand would stray from their mainsteam "fun" vehicles

(their market) and take a swipe at Kyosho every once in a while. 

Only once did Kyosho blatantly go after a piece of the Tamiya pie back

then when they brought out the Double Dare (failure) and USA-1 to

take on the Clod Buster.  I always wondered if there was a rivalry

between the two manufacturers but this little episode made me certain

of it.

Fair point. And well put.

I think alot of this is "chicken and the egg" thing. If you want to get

really picky - you could say that that Tamiya AND Kyosho and every

other manufacturer since copied another manufacturer when it cam to the

monster truck.......yep - thats right - those "copiers/non original

thinkers" by the name of MARUI had the first "Monster Truck" with the

BIG BEAR....hard to swallow - but it is fact.[6]

Back on topic again - I think Tamiya could make a competative off road

machine for sure - but I dont think the dark impact is it. I beleive

that they had a better platform 12 months ago with that tasty little belt

drive double deck chassis number - but like always - they probably did

the research and discovered it wasnt worth the money in development

compared to returns. Tamiya are extraordinaryily clever at what they

do....they get you in with the "ready for competition" slogan and then

hit you with the hundreds of dollars in hop ups to get it even close to

spec of other cars - but that is a different arguement altogether.

Tamiya could do whatever they want - you must remember though that the

reason they are still here though is because they very good at market

research and marketing. I dare say that if Tamiya only did R/C - they

may not be as prolific as they are today. It is easy to pump out model

after model with the same chassis......doesnt cost much in development.

NOT saying anything to start a flame war - just makes you wonder.

There we go - off topic yet again !

S O R R Y !!

Darryn

[mobias]

I always just though Tamiya's looked a lot better than anyone elses, including Kyosho's, and I think for the majority of people thats what counted. I mean the Avante may have been their grand folly into competative racing but it looked and still does look AMAZINGLY COOL, same goes for the Supershot. They both certainly look like they should go fast and should beat anything on the track even though they obviously didn't and don't.

Kyosho may have made better racing cars but they have never, to my knowledge, produced a car like the Bruiser, complete minature engineering genius. Maybe that explains the difference between the two companies.

[stuie-t]

Kyosho have produced their fair share of unique rc vehicles, like the 1/8th motorbikes and the 1/4 scale go kart.  They obviously weren't anywhere near as successful as tamiya in that respect though.

[kevinthegerbil]

On a lighter note to this thread, The Swindon club (UK) just held a BRCA regional 2WD meeting on the 2nd April. There was a couple of 'open' heats which I used a Modified Manta Ray which I qualified 3rd. There was only one other Tamiya Entered and that was a Top Force who came in 2nd. Most of the other cars where either Yoks or Lazers, so us Tamiya drivers did well.....

Photos from the club forum linked below

http://srcmcc.forumup.org/about236-srcmcc.html

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