Tamiya Going Up or Down??

[Jimmy_GT-R]

Are Tamiyas standard falling, rising or staying the same?? They used to have some very realistic bodies but now, gone is the mirrors and plastic rear wings, and in there place are stupid lexan ones, great for racing but not good for scale. Are they tending towards racing now rather than giving us the best SCALE radio conrolled models we can find?? Whats your view??

Thanks

James

[McLaren]

I for one still rate Tamiya as having the best models.....

But for racing i use Pro-Line bodies as i think Tamiya bodies is too good looking to trash around a track with 'equal' nutty drivers like me on.....

[Revival]

Hello GTR

I dont think Tamiya's standard has fallen but I think the competition for EP market has grown stronger.....what I know is that Tamiya needs to be extra 'On-the-ball' when it comes to their future kit releases.

[Guest Carsnboats]

I think the standards are still high, but the market place they are targeting has altered, they are aiming more and more at the racing fraternity. Look at the releases over the past few years, predominantly Racing based. TB Evo Surikarn, the TB02 also the nitro range is increasing both on and off road.

But they are pricing themselves out of the recreational user market. What happened to the low cost cars like Grasshopper, Fighter Buggy etc? Off road entry level now is around £100 for a kit whereas you could spend £50 on a kit to get started. The cheap cars like the CEN are going to keep claiming the recreational market.

Maybe Tamiya's future should lie in re-releases of classic cars, so how about bringing back cars like the 959 and Grp B Celica or the Sand Rover. Whilst they are doing that what about a new range of 3 speeds based on modern vehicles such as the Mitsubushi Warrior or Ford Explorer; or XC vehicles based on the Porsche Cayenne or BMW X5?

Just my thought on the subject[]

Clive

Mind you a lot of fault could lie with the LHS. The days of stores being staffed by knowledgable people is at an end. Most are of the pile it high and flog it cheap variety with no sound advice available. I find I know more about the products I want to buy than the people behind the counter nowadays. Not just hobby stores, bike shops as well. Do people not care about customer service and product knowledge anymore?

[mud4fun]

quote:I find I know more about the products I want to buy than the people behind the counter nowadays

id="quote">id="quote">Yes, me too! and my LHS is one of the better ones. Sadly he concentrates on non tamiya touring and nitros so his knowledge of Tamiya buggies is nill.

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quote:Do people not care about customer service and product knowledge anymore?

id="quote">id="quote">No, many don't!! They staff the shops with 16 year old school leavers who have no knowledge or skills but are extremely cheap to employ. Most chain stores will still sell volume of product even if the staff are stupid. It is only a minority of people who are willing to pay more for better service. You only have to look at the success of the supermarkets for that one - do they have the friendly, skilled, knowledgeable services that the smaller bakeries, butchers and grocers had? - NO! but can they sell huge volumes cheaply - YES! The more they sell the cheaper they can buy in the goods so the cheaper they can sell meaning ever more volume. A classic example of this lack of skills - I was in Morrisons the other day buying some fish from the fish counter, in theory the equivalent of a proper fishmongers. I asked for 3 smoked haddock - the girls reply? - Which ones are they? At that point I decided there wasn't any point asking her if she had any monkfish due in.

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Tamiya is as guilty as anybody, its products are now designed for mass production and sales in huge volume. Many different shells mounted on the same chassis keeps their design and manufacturing costs to minimum while maximising sales.

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The quality of the engineering has NOT diminished at all, being a qualified ex-machanical engineer I can say that the quality is superb even in plastic. Just because something isn't made of metal doesn't make the quality of the engineering any less impressive, more so maybe because plastic is much more difficult to design and engineer than aluminium or steel.

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The scale quality has diminished but only for good reason. I too use lexan shells on all my runners as they are lighter and stronger than ABS plastic. However, it is much more difficult to reproduce details in lexan or very expensive to tool up seperate sprues for mirrors etc. Tamiya still have some of the best, if not the best, scale looking lexan shells. I use HPI shells on most of my runners and they are no match to Tamiya.

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I wouldn't say Tamiya's are any more expensive relative to wages than they ever were. When I got my sand scorcher in 1980 it was one of the most expensive RC cars available. I was only one of a handul of kids in a school of 1200 pupils to have one as they were so expensive. Maybe the balance of costs have changedc though. In 1980 the radio gear cost as much as the kit. The battery was also very expensive. Now you can pickup radio sets new for less than £40!!

[urban warrior]

Hi there!

This is a very controversal theme. I am moaning about Tamiya's range of products too. Where is the ingenuity gone they offered in times when there were Sand Scorchers, Hilux', Bruisers, etc. The little thing what has let us said: "Wow!". The are not completely off, but I guess at his time, the wrong people are holding the steering wheel. But it's a global problem too. Everything is viewed under aspects of economics, companies introduced "Just in time", "Leanproduction" and SAP, with deep impacts on costs and rentability, sometimes they spend three bucks to save one! Here in Germany Tamiya kits in LHS' are really expensive, maybe comparable to the UK, but the people can only spend their money once. And when you have less, you can only buy less, or, like me, you look for other sources (Internet Shops, Overseas Mail Order Shops, ...).

When you talk with shop owners or the companies, everyone is blaming the mail oder shops, or the internet shops. But hey! I can remember, when I was buying my kits at the LHS', that even then the knowledge was low, they never had the parts I needed ("Sorry but we have to order it."), or they were quite rude, when asked for Tamiya kits. I remember one shop, where the employees argued very agressive against the Hot Shot, just to sell me a Kyosho kit, I just left the shop w/o any comments. And why should I pay more when I have to wait long for delivery anyway?

But where shall this discussion lead to? No one would change the way the responsibles at Tamiya think. And not only Tamiya, the others too. Several inquiries of me sent to Tamiya and Kyosho about specific information never had any response. I look for their news from time to time, but I am less impressed each time I look.

Cheers

Martin

[mud4fun]

quote:No one would change the way the responsibles at Tamiya think

id="quote">id="quote">Hey Martin, the problem is that Tamiya have listened to people - the majority of people in fact! That is the problem. The majority of joe public are ill informed, unaware or just plain stupid. Very few RC cars sold are raced competitively at clubs despite what the racers in this club might think and yet Tamiya continually churns out cars designed for racing rather than bashing. This is what the perceived market wants. Those that aren't designed for racing are of poor design (not quality) and not as durable as they could be.

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This is similar in a way to full size cars. Look at where the major manufacturers etc spend their money in marketing. It is mainly concentrated around motorsport, vast amounts are spent on developing competitive cars because it is perceived that if you win races you'll sell more cars? guess it must be based on accurate stats too or they wouldn't do it. Teenage boys looked at Subaru Impreza winning the rally championship and wanted one too so Tamiya produced Impreza shells on any chassis they could find.

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I think we have to remember that the majority of RC cars sold new are bought by people with little knowledge of the hobby. This includes all thye Nikko RTR's etc because to most of joe public they don't comprehend the difference between a Nikko and a kit built Tamiya - other than the Tamiya is more expensive. The sales people in the stores such as Toys R Us, Halfords etc have little knowledge themselves so can't explain the difference properly and in fact I've heard one saleman telling a customer that Tamiya is a waste of money because not only is it more expensive BUT YOU HAVE TO BUILD IT YOURSELF AS WELL!!!!

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I've even been advised by my LHS to buy Schumacher or Kyosho because he can get the parts quicker and with better discounts than from Tamiya.

[The Slayer]

I am looking at a Model Cars mag from 1987 - The Radio and I quote was 'Acoms Technisport £69' thats the equivelent of the Techniplus today - they are £32 on e-pay... Porsche 959 £136.50, Hot Shot £108, Bigwig £149, Hornet £55, Wild One £55!!!!!!!!! today you have to pay £90 for a super Hornet..... and £200 for Wild One... so the cars areid="red"> more expensive today relativley speaking, for what you get, I was on about £10K a year then, £192PW pre tax, on £15K now!!!! so is it cheaper??? and those cars were more fun to build and harder than todays, 'screw em and glue em' ones... I would like to get a NIB Hotshot for £108 today!!!! but Technology has made radios etc cheaper... Novak fwd only ESC was £70!!! blimey even ballraces where £1,50 each then [:I]

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As for quality - have you seen the new Gravel Hound [?] Looks like a toy - literally and its pre-built, if thats the way Tamiya are going expect a dip in sales... and what Buggies DO Tamiya make now - its all on-road stuff, oh the Baja King/Champ and thats it!!! they are cheapo TLO1's[:0].... sorry the 'classics' are the best, i would say pre 93.. the best years are 85 - 88 for Tamiya methinks....

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3 smoked haddock!!! should have asked her where the Super Champs were..... [] Now where did i park that Time Machine []

quote:Originally posted by mud4fun

I.

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I wouldn't say Tamiya's are any more expensive relative to wages than they ever were. When I got my sand scorcher in 1980 it was one of the most expensive RC cars available. I was only one of a handul of kids in a school of 1200 pupils to have one as they were so expensive. Maybe the balance of costs have changedc though. In 1980 the radio gear cost as much as the kit. The battery was also very expensive. Now you can pickup radio sets new for less than £40!!

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id="quote">id="quote">

[mud4fun]

Sorry Slayer but when I said relative it referred to the average national wage then and now - it is now £23K and was then just £13K so clearly the cost is NOT more expensive - you are just earning less than the average wage now, sorry! [][]

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When I bought my techniplus back in '80 it cost £80, the Sand Scorcher was £110. The equivalent radio set now is just £40 in my LHS.

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You must be careful when sayhing that quality is poor. I disagree, the gravel hound is a VERY high quality piece of engineering. Just because it looks like a toy doesn't mean it is poor quality engineering. Many toys/model cars have higher quality engineering than full size products. It has been designed 'down' to a cost which is the case with almost everything in life. The cost is based on what Tamiya consider the market will accept and what the perceived competitors are charging for similar products. Many of the cheaper Tamiyas cars are up against Nikko RTR's etc so the 'material quality' may be less, the 'scale quality' may be less, the 'performance quality' will be less but not the 'engineering quality'!

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I can assure you, as somebody that has had to design and manufacture in many materials, plastics are much more difficult than metals. Cheap plastics are the most difficult of all to work and retain precision engineering. When you consider the fine tolerance required to get a gearbox to work smoothly and reliably at even low speeds you can only be impressed by Tamiya products.

[The Slayer]

Hi Ian....

23K..... god no chance!!! where are all these jobs, most i see are around £16 - £18k and thats in London!!!!!! ahh but i am refering to mr average in REAL LIFE!!! jobs, not national wage rates put out by the wonderful British Govt... who i work for by the way [] or whoever makes these figures up!!!

Agree the radio gear is super cheap now - but would you buy a Gravel Hound[] and how much is a SS now - pray tell.. about a months wages for me [][] so yes from where i am standing/sitting the cost is more.... That 1980 price is about 1/2 weeks wages to me as i said where is that time machine [][][:I][]

Originally posted by mud4fun

Sorry Slayer but when I said relative it referred to the average national wage then and now - it is now £23K and was then just £13K so clearly the cost is NOT more expensive - you are just earning less than the average wage now, sorry! [][]

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When I bought my techniplus back in '80 it cost £80, the Sand Scorcher was £110. The equivalent radio set now is just £40 in my LHS.

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[mymonsterbeetleisbroken]

i'm really only into tamiyas off road stuff, like the monster beetle and clod buster.

so from my point of view, tamiya have slipped up in the last few years, for a start why did they kill off the juggernaut 2[?] wheres the new monster beetle? (i dont like the blackfoot extream[V])

and as for the super clod, i think tamiya are going to struggle to sell those, it needed something more, when the clod buster came out back in the 80s it was ground breaking, the super clod is nothing new[V]

and what about a txt-2[8D]

so from my point of view tamiya could be a little better for us who like the big monster trucks.

[The Slayer]

Agree with that one MBIB... not that i am into trucks [xx(] but know what you mean.... As a matter of interest regarding quality, if you build an 80's car say, and you are screwing into the plastic, the screw stops when its done up - right... if you are building a modern car, say the Willy 2... and you do up the screws in the lower wishbones, the screw keeps turning unless you are very careful.. coz the plastic is too flipping soft now[][] bring back nice hard plastics i say [] Not disputing the engineering, just the quality, and that to me is more important.... Come on Tamiya lets see some nice 'original re-releases' surely they would sell far more than the modern stuff.... and dont say they dont have the tooling or the moulds still to do it course they have... I agree that teenage boys will buy the latest Rally Winner - so good luck to Tamiya for that but after a bit they turn into us and want decent built 80's jobbys.....

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Hey Ian, got a spare Brick you dont want[][)]

[mud4fun]

LOL, I am the last one to agree with Tamiya's current model range - I'm ONLY interested in off road stuff and specifically buggies, well designed, rugged, quick to fix and easy to modify and tweak. Sad to say that the thundershots which are some 15 years old are still far superior to anything in Tamiyas current line up and even more saddening is the fact the the thundershots were the BASE models back then! (Avante and kin were the top of the range buggies)

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I was merely defending engineering quality and Tamiyas ability to produce to market demand.

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Slayer, sorry mate but I'm one of those on very high salary causing the high average....[:I][] Don't think your worse off though cos' despite being on double the average I'm still overdrawn at the end of each month.....just means I can spend even more on ebay before running out of cash [][]

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Although tamiya have many 'off roaders' in their range they have spent far too much development resource on their touring cars and this now shows in the aged and generally pathetic off road range which if they aren't based on a TL01 chassis are rehashes of earlier ones.

[The Slayer]

Nah your OK Ian... apart from earning more than i do.... pahh!! any jobs at your place then [][][]

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Agree totally on that, too many TL01's... nice chassis - but can we please have something a bit more like the oldies please Tamiya

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As a matter of interest, i just got meself a nice NIB Manta Ray, about the same money as a TL01'ed Baja Clone.... [][][] and i beat a very well known TC member (no names - no packdrill) in the auction - anyway hes got several Manta's anyway - no hard feelings ***** []

Smug Cow....[:X]

[tamiya-phile]

quote:Where is the ingenuity gone they offered in times when there were Sand Scorchers, Hilux', Bruisers, etc. The little thing what has let us said: "Wow!". The are not completely off, but I guess at his time, the wrong people are holding the steering wheel.

id="quote">id="quote">

Tamiya still makes me say, “WOW!†The ingenuity is still here! But for that you have to look in a different direction. Who else in this world make 1/16 scale tanks with full function movement and sound??? Or a 1/14 scale tractor truck that even vibrates when you turn it on?? NOBODY else but Tamiya. So you’d say, well, who cares about those, I care more competition cars and trucks. I bet those were the same expression some people said when they first saw the slow crawling 3-speed trucks. Yeah, the touring car market is saturated, so Tamiya finds a way to be original, once again.

[Shodog]

quote:Originally posted by tamiya-phile

quote:Where is the ingenuity gone they offered in times when there were Sand Scorchers, Hilux', Bruisers, etc. The little thing what has let us said: "Wow!". The are not completely off, but I guess at his time, the wrong people are holding the steering wheel.

id="quote">id="quote">

Tamiya still makes me say, “WOW!†The ingenuity is still here! But for that you have to look in a different direction. Who else in this world make 1/16 scale tanks with full function movement and sound??? Or a 1/14 scale tractor truck that even vibrates when you turn it on?? NOBODY else but Tamiya. So you’d say, well, who cares about those, I care more competition cars and trucks. I bet those were the same expression some people said when they first saw the slow crawling 3-speed trucks. Yeah, the touring car market is saturated, so Tamiya finds a way to be original, once again.

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id="quote">id="quote">

Tamiya phile has said it. Tamiya still makes kits that make you say wow. everytime I bring my Knight hauler into a shop, it's like kids in a candy store.

The competition is stiff out there. The market has changed to a RTR and perfomance oriented set. detailed vehicles look nice but get damaged to easily and replacement parts are expensive.

I think Tamiya has a good line up but the should look to focus on niche markets rather than be everything to everyone.

Jim

[urban warrior]

Yep, that is quite correct, sorry, I simply overlooked that! Tanks and trucks, yes they are great models. I guess I won't own one of these in the near future, but I wouldn't say no to it. I have other priorities. But honestly, Tamiya is in the tank and truck business since years, even there nothing really new. Maybe I am too hungry for innovations .. who knows? Or I just can't cope with the modern times ... [xx(]

@mud4fun:

£23K before or after taxes? I just wanna know if I should envy or commiserate you ... LOL!

Cheers

Martin

[Stefan(2)]

quote: But honestly, Tamiya is in the tank and truck business since years, even there nothing really new

id="quote">id="quote">

now u are hurting me []

look at the new leopard tank

[mud4fun]

quote:£23K before or after taxes? I just wanna know if I should envy or commiserate you ... LOL!

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id="quote">id="quote">Martin, it was double the national average but that was before tax. Yes, I'm one of those in the 40% tax band [] Thing is though I have had to work about 70hrs a week to get that so I'm probably on no more per hour than I was when I was 21! [][] In fact, I think I'm more skint now than then.....got wife,two kids, mortgage and two cars to pay for plus a serious addiction to ebay and all things Tamiya. Back then I was just interested in going the pub and chatting up girls while living with parents......[]

[DJTheo]

I think that we can't generalise as IMHO it can be said that Tamiya in the last years has 2 sides.

One is the "old school Tamiya" side with the "low" production and slow model cycle kits, like the statics, tanks and trucks where quality is high, but market following is slow and not complete.

The other is the RC and 1:32 mini section, where the opposites hold. This side as its very market focussed, lately even supports us "vintage" fans (probably discovered our not insignificant and growing share), by re-releasing older cars or bodysets.

But you can see that they are made under marketing (time) and cost pressure, like most modern RC kits with their just thrown in parts (without nice interior box design and blisters). This I realised this weekend when I worked on 3 re-release bodysets. The Lotus is missing metal wing mounts (just has a drawing how to saw your own ones!), the Lancia 037 instructions have mistakes and decals fit badly and the Brat has poor casting "stitches" and its roll bar is made out of one piece (without iron core) and when you try to bend it open to fit to the bed, it breaks, as its casted closed! [:0]) This is not "old school" Tamiya quality, but on the other side "old school" Tamiya would never have cared and re-released old kits, so I am still happy and don't complain with the new evolution of big T. [^]

Cheers

[mymonsterbeetleisbroken]

quote:and its roll bar is made out of one piece (without iron core) and when you try to bend it open to fit to the bed, it breaks, as its casted closed!

id="quote">id="quote">

woooooo[:0]

thats really poor!

but i see what you mean by old school tamiya not making re releases, but i doubt they would be thinking of a collectors market for cars that are only a few years old, like if your "sandscorcherisbroken" , back then they would have wanted you to go out and buy a monster beetle or something, only now can they re release stuff, rather like the chopper bikes[8D]

i gess we can only say tamiya has gone down hill the day the hauler trucks have lexan shells, all kits come pre built, and this site changes its name to nikkoclub[)]

[dunebuggy71]

I think Tamiya is still a great company. I don´t like the new "Blackfoot Xtreme" and the "Twin Detonator". I like more the look of an old "Blackfoot", but the Xtreme is 1000 times better, also to most competitors on the market. No one else makes Hardplastic bodies on the market. Most of you guys, don´t like Lexan bodies. I don´t understand that. For modern RC-Car racing this is a must have. And Tamiya was one of the first companies who made them. No other manufacturer in the world can do those perfect Lexan bodies. Look at the Porsche GT2, Mini Cooper, Alpine A110, Fiat Abarth, Lancia Delta Integrale, Alfa Giulia GTA. These Body´s are masterpieces in my opinion ! No one else in the world can do such a perfect quality. And they are back in Racing. The TB-Surikarn and TRF 415 are one of the best chassis in the scene. Also the quality of the used materials is brilliant. They also do much on their "Static"-kit´s. The actual line of 1/12 Moto GP racers is on such a high standard. The best kit´s i have ever seen. Tamiya is the only company who still produces this items. Most of the companys in the 70´s and 80´s are gone from the market. But not Tamiya. Kyosho mostly does Mini-Z , Monster Trucks, and Nitro-Cars. For me, nothing can reach the Tamiya-Standard ![]

[GPZ1000RX]

Tamiya are only good at one thing.

That thing is producing the very best introduction to RC cars any one can have!

The best marketing.

The best instructions.

The easiest build.

The best looking finished car.

If anyone asks me to recommend a first car for their children there is only one answer, TAMIYA!!!!!!!!

It's been the same for well over 20 years now.

There are negatives, why for instance, is it so difficult to get service and repair parts very soon after a model becomes obsolete? (F102 front wishbones anyone?)

Off the race track, Tamiya is very much on the pace!

[Tamiya1/10]

Getting back to the original question....personally I think the standard of the kits in terms of fit and finish are still there...but the in terms of detail, I am with James. My desire to own the current kits (the 1/10 stuff) are not there for me. I would like Tamiya to use more or optional plastic parts than just stickers for head lights, wiper blades etc..like Lancia 037 or VW Beetle with the M02 L chassis is what I am referring to. On the same token, the details of Kyosho kits have gone down too. Kyosho used to provide plastic wiper blades and radio antenna...look at the Mini which in my view was more detailed than Tamiya's.

Is Tamiya moving in the right direction?? If Tamiya is a listed company, the value of the shares would be a good indicator or go to few track (not a Tamiya club track) and see what brands are beening run in general.

[The Slayer]

At the end of the day its all about money [:I] Tamiya has a niche market, unlike huge companies like Sony - where nearly everyone has a PS2/Telly/Stereo how many people have R/C cars or static kits[?][?] thats what its about, what sells, how much dosh they can make and keep the small market they have happy - not easy, granted the latest kit is a bit dross though [:I] anyone ever worked out the rough numbers of RC Car modellers in the world, i reckon at a guess about 100,000 tops [:I] LIGHT THE FLAMES!!!!