Kamtec bodies onto Tamiya M chassis - advice?

[ChrisB]

I have just been looking at the Kamtec site and I would really LOVE to try and make up some of the 1/12th shells on Tamiya M-chassis.

On the Kamtec ebay auction it says the 1/12 shells should fit the "short" Tamiya M-series chassis. Which Tamiya chassis does this mean and has anyone tried it?

Two cars on there I would love to build would be the Mk1 Escort in 70's rally colours, maybe with a bank of working driving lights strapped onto the bonnet []. I would also be really keen to build a Tamiya based Mk1 Golf as I have a 1:1 Mk1 GTi that I'd love to reproduce in miniature.

I am sure I read somewhere that the M chassis are all based on a single design, just with different spacers inserted to give different wheelbases - is this true?

For the Mk1 golf I would like to use a FWD chassis - would the M-03 Mini chassis work unmodified do you think?

For the Mk1 Escort I would like to use a RWD M chassis - I have an M-04L from my ALfa GTA, but I'm guessing this would have the wrong wheelbase?

Also is it possible to buy the Tamiya M chassis without buying a whole kit?

I really have a hankering to start building some 70's / 80's rally cars, and the Kamtec shells seem very good value for money so would be good to use as runners. The RWD handling would be much more fun on loose gravel than todays slighly bland looking scooby / lancer 4WD rally cars imho.

I know keith can make up custom shells if there is enough demand, I would love to get a Talbot Sunbeam Lotus shell made up and painted in early eighties RAC rally colours [8D]

If anyone else has any advice / info about using these Kamtec shells on Tamiya running gear I'd love to hear from them.

Cheers,

Chris

[CarterTG]

I know nothing about the Kamtec shells, but M-chassis.. especially the M-04x, that I know.

The four general species of M-chassis are: M-01, M-02, M-03, and M-04.

The M-01 and M-03 are front-wheel drive. The M-02 and M-04 are rear wheel drive.

Broadly speaking, the M-01 and M-02 have been discontinued and replaced by the M-03 and M-04 respectively.

Now to the specifics of each...

M-01 This is the front-drive chassis that hosted the original Rover Mini shell (with plastic grille) Even though it was before my time in this hobby, I'm not certain it had wheelbase spacers. Its wheelbase is 225mm.

M-02 It wasn't that long ago that Tamiya retired this rear-drive chassis. It existed as the 225mm wheelbase M-02M that hosted the Mazda Eunos (Miata) and was later elongated into the 239mm wheelbase M-02L to accomodate the Mercedes SLK and Porsche Boxster. The cars had a track (width) of 174mm. Like its sister chassis the M-01, both used a quirky monoshock at each end to dampen both sides of the suspension.

M-03 This technically superior successor to the front-drive M-01 offered individual dampers at each corner and featured a more direct steering servo placement. The 210mm wheelbase M-03 was fitted to the still-popular Mini Cooper. A couple years ago, Tamiya offered another variation with the 239mm wheelbase M-03L to which they mated the BMW Mini Cooper.

M-04 Finally we come to the successor for the M-02 chassis; The M-04L was first introduced in both the BMW M roadster and Honda S2000 guise. The M-04L achieved its 239mm wheelbase by using an extension piece that tied the rear gearbox to the middle chassis. The extension was designed such that you could conceivably add extension on top of extension... not that there'd be any practical reason to do so. Remove this extension piece (letting chassis mate directly to rear gearbox) and we now have the M-02M that now serves as the 225mm wheelbase platform for a re-released Mazda Eunos. At this point, there are no more extensions available for removal, so by convention, a 210mm M-04 chassis cannot exist. This fourth generation chassis has a 174mm track width. In following with the M-03 chassis, the M-04 variant also has a damper at each suspension arm. Out of all the M-chassis, the M-04 is the only one to have a urethane front bumper.

Tamiya has a page to reiterate some of this:

http://www.tamiya.com/english/rc/beginner/chassis2.htm

Just for comparison, "normal" 1/10th scale chassis (TA-04, TT-01, TL-01) typically have a 259mm wheelbase and a 190mm track width.

Having said all this, you'll have to figure out what Kamtec shell would best fit which M-chassis. I find it a bit <insert derrogatory word here> that a bodyshell company cannot be bothered to include wheelbase and width measurements on their website. True, some shells are slab-sided to let you fudge the wheelwell cutout locations, but still other shells have wheelwell arches distinctly molded into a precise location.

Best of luck with your project. It's always good to see one-of-a-kind fabrications.

[ChrisB]

Thanks for the great reply CarterTG - much appreciated []

Having looked on ebay at some of the Kamtec auctions I have found this info on the Mk1 Escort shell:

"The dimensions of the shell are 325mm long x 160mm wide and 100mm high, the wheelbase is 205mm and the track is 160mm"

Given that all the 1/12th shells seem to be designed for the Mardave V12 chassis, then I would have thought all the bodyshells in the 1/12th Kamtec range would have the same wheelbase and track (seems reasonable?).

This means that the M-03 FWD mini chassis at 210mm should be a close fit for the Mk1 golf shell in both wheelbase and track.

The rear wheel drive option is the one that is confusing me. As I understand it the re-release Mazda Eunos runs on an M04-M chassis, the same as I think my re-release Alfa GTA which is a 225mm wheel base.

I THINK it should be possible to cut the M-04M central chassis section in front of the battery holder and remove 15mm, but obviously I'd prefer NOT to do this.

The other option I thought of to get my 210mm wheelbase RWD chassis was buying the central M-02 chassis section as a spare and bolting on the front and rear M-04M suspension components to it?

If anyone else has experience with shortening this chassis I'd be interested to hear about it.

Also which is the best approach financially for building the chassis - buy a complete kit with the correct chassis, or try and build the chassis from spares? I suspect the former is the cheapest, although it does seem an expensive way to go about it!!!!!

Thanks,,

Chris

[BiggusDitchus]

Luckily the shell doesnt have the arches marked out so you can use a bit of artistic license. I have personally squeezed a Celica GrB chassis under a Kamtec Escort mk1 shell.

[sosidge]

A rear-drive 210mm wheelbase chassis would be an M-02, as used on the Fiat Abarth model, and also according to the Tamiyaclub site the Honda S800 and the Alpine A110 (beautiful models).

There are a couple of NIB Abarths from German sellers on ebay as we speak...

[fury_dice(2)]

quote:

Originally posted by CarterTG

M-01

This is the front-drive chassis that hosted the original Rover Mini shell (with plastic grille) Even though it was before my time in this hobby, I'm not certain it had wheelbase spacers. Its wheelbase is 225mm.

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Carter - Great description of the M-series chassis's, but surely the M01 is the 210mm wheelbase version? 225mm would be the 'M' wheelbase I think.

Chris - Another point is that the M03 is higher at the front (due to the servo mounting) than the M01 so you might have trouble with the bonnet line of the Escort shell if you chose this chassis. FWD wouldn't be right for a Mk1 anyway...

While on the 'mini chassis' subject, I'm guessing that you could also use the HPI RS4 Mini chassis which can be built as 210mm or 225mm wheelbase AFAIK. They're a bit hard to find though - I've been looking for one at a reasonable price for a while now.

HTH.

David

[ChrisB]

The only thing I have against the earlier M chassis models are the mono shock setups.

My ultimate aim after getting a chassis to fit the bodies, especially with the Escort is to try and improve the ground clearance for very mild rally action []

David as you say, whilst the M03 FWD would be right for the Mk1 VW Golf, I would have to go with a RWD M chassis for the Escort []

I'm not worried about the cars being fast or competitive, its purely about bashing enjoyment and I love the older shape cars - so much more interesting than the bland jellymoulds that are most of todays saloon car bodies (impreza / Evo and the like). I also tend to go for full lighting rigs on my cars, so they are never particularly light

I followed thesuper's thread on mods to his TB01 to increase ground clearance and would be interested in doing something similar for my Mk1 Escort project. Wish I had a decent CNC milling / lathe setup as I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to make my own suspension components etc from alu.....

Chris

[ChrisB]

Well I've been in contact with Keith at Kamtec, and what can I say - what a great guy.

I know some of you have criticised a few aspects of the Kamtec setup, but I think you need to realise he does this IN ADDITION to trying to run a full time business which is his main income.

He told me he would love to do the shells fulltime, and is trying to make a viable business from it, but so far its not quite there.

He is very interested in the Tamiya chassis possibilities though, (especially the M - chassis), so I think we at TC should be trying our best to encourage guys like Keith. There is real potential here to get some great unusual shells representing older cars.

Tamiya themselves seem to be getting a bit too hung up on producing 29 different versions of the Impreza and similar imho "bland" saloon car shapes. Thankfully they also do re-releases of classics like the Alfa GTa and Mazda Eunos, but there are too few of these kind of kits imho. My best hope for some interesting quality shells are people like Keith @ Kamtec who are willing to put the effort in.

I think he may have a few things in the pipeline that look very interesting []

Didn't mean this to turn into a rant [:I], but I think its easy to bash people for trying without realising the effort they go to for very little financial reward.

Cheers,

Chris

[Gruntfuggly]

The only problem is that Keith needs to sell at least 50 shells to break even...

I mailed him about doing a Ford Puma shell for the M03 chassis, but when I mentioned it on here I don't think there was a single reply...

Maybe you'll have more luck - and I'd love to see some new shells produced...

[ChrisB]

I guess maybe he's hoping there will be more demand for classic shells like the the Mk1 Escort and Golfs? I think its easier for him to mod an existing mould, (he already has a 1/12th Mk1 Escort and Mk1 Golf shell available), as he also has all the reference material already - just guessing though really to be honest.

Starting a shell from scratch probably takes a lot longer....

Wish I had seen your post about the Puma shell - were you thinking of the Racing Puma? I would have ordered at least one of those. Compared to the price of Tamiya shell's, the Kamtec ones are very reasonable imho.

If Keith was to come out with a Mk1 Escort and Mk1 VW Golf shell at a tenner a pop, I'd probably take 2 or 3 of each so I had spares. I'm still quite taken with the idea of getting some 70's / 80's rally cars running on Tamiya chassis.

I've got a particular interest in the 1980 WRC championship winning Talbot Sunbeam Lotus cars. If Keith's minimum run was 50 shells, and it was designed to fit say the M-04M RWD chassis, I'd seriously consider buying 50 shells up front and then selling the ones I didn't want on on e-pay. I know its a few hundred quid up front, but if it meant I got the shell I wanted, I'm pretty sure I could sell any remaining shells on without too much difficulty - granted, maybe not straight away, but I think they would go.

At the end of the day even if I only covered my costs I'd still end up getting a really unique shell for my car and I guess the mould would be there for future runs.

Anyway, hoping to suss things like this out with Keith depending on his time commitments / costings.

Cheers,

Chris

[DJTheo]

IMHO if you want to approach a bigger market to get the production costs covered, you should build bodies for cars that were desired on a bigger part of the world, as for example the Escort and Talbot have mostly fans in the UK, but not so much outside it. Golfs for example are a better choice as VW has a strong fan followance all over the world.

Just my 5 cent... [?]

Cheers

[fatboyslim]

Or how about some of the Rallycross cars...

Metro 6R4,

Ford RS200,

These I believe would sell!!

[Hondabiker]

[)]

What about plan B? You could ditch the M-Chassis and build yourself and outdoors mardave V12 chassis that will fit all the Kamtec 1/12 shells. Cheap, fast and you can even squeeze in a 7.2V stick pack (with a few mods).

[Tipsy]

quote:

Originally posted by fatboyslim

Or how about some of the Rallycross cars...

Metro 6R4,

Ford RS200,

These I believe would sell!!

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YES PLEASE!!

Metro 6R4 would be a cool idea. Im sure i'd get one of those shells

[mr_pushrod]

If there was a detailed range of Group B cars I'd probably buy most of them!

[ChrisB]

quote:

Originally posted by Hondabiker

[

)]

What about plan B? You could ditch the M-Chassis and build yourself and outdoors mardave V12 chassis that will fit all the Kamtec 1/12 shells. Cheap, fast and you can even squeeze in a 7.2V stick pack (with a few mods).

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I thought about the Mardave chassis, but I'm a Tamiya guy at heart []. I think the Tamiya M-chassis is a good one, especially in RWD form.

Cheers,

Chris

[BugFreak]

I've read trough the posts.. Did anyone say that M01-chassis is possible to build as a FWD and RWD.. Because it is.. Just switch them front-gear-box and the rear-box around.. Thinking og the Escort or the Golf myself.. If you change the M01 to RWD you wouldn't wear out the dogbones that fast, because there's no bending in the drive-line when converted to RWD..

[ChrisB]

I think the main problems I see with the M-01 is that its a discontinued chassis (I think?), and so spares availability or donor kits for the chassis will be harder / more expensive to come by.

Is the M-01 a mono shock chassis too? The reason the later M series chassis appeals is the fact that it has a more realistic 4 shock setup and hopefully is more amenable to modding to increase ground clearance. This will be important, especially for the Group B rally cars.

Anyway, its all a bit pie in the sky at the moment as I haven't heard any more from Keith @ Kamtec, so don't know whether he is persuing this any further at the moment?

Cheers,

Chris

[BugFreak]

Yes the M01 is a mono-shock, and I must agree on the subject of increasing the ride-hight, can be tricy with the early m-chassis..

I talked to him about a repro of the Lunchbox-body, it took under a singel day before he replyed me..

[Lordcroker]

The kamtec shells are pretty much direct fot onto the M-03 Mini cooper chassis.

I have a Mk1 Escort on mine and the wheelarches needed just a little bit of fitting around the front of the front wheelarch and the rear of the rear arch to clear the tyres. The only problem is that the shell sits too high on the chassis, even with the bonnet resting on the top of the servo!

If you like the shells then I would advise buying a Mardave V12 chassis. Not only do they fit perfectly, but I also believe the chassis is more fun to drive than any of the Tamiya M series. I know I will get shot down for saying that, but I have owned an M-02L VW Beetle and an M-03 Mini and have been frankly disappointed with them both.

The Mardave may be crude, but it is very effective, fast and has an excellent (and ridiculously cheap) spares back up!

Kamtec also make some special bodies for the short wheelbase V12 chassis. Included in this range are a Metro 6R4, Hillman Imp and a Morris Minor [] HOW MUCH COOLER IS THAT THAN AN IMPREZZA? [8D]

Heres the link = http://www.huntersystems.co.uk/acatalog/Mardave-V12.html