Arrogance For Sale

[V8 VW]

I've been into this hobby for decades and owned some very rare cool stuff, so took a look on here.

Unfortunately it's been rather eye opening to note the air of arrogance within the classified adverts on Tamiya Club.

I searched out half a dozen cars I'd certainly love to acquire. However the general shocking attitude displayed by many sellers would make sure I never contacted them on principle! Despite the fact I have cash sitting here and am a serious buyer. I encountered terms along the lines of... "Don't bother asking my price! / Emails will be ignored! / Just offer me your best price! / Don't bother me, etc..." How not to sell items or influence people - Hilarious!

I hope this general attitude is not condoned by Tamiya Club. Many forums have rules with regard to selling, such as being respectful, list the real asking price, etc.

It's been amusing, although unfortunately a waste of my time so far. If I want an auction I'll go to ebay.

Thanks

[Tamiya1/10]

TC has over 22k members and you are bound to run into a few that are arrogant. We all behave differently at different time based on our character, age, experience and what happened to us that day when the email was received. I am sure there are more good members than bad members and in the end buyers want the cheapest deal possible while sellers want the highest price for their pride and joy and some times words put on paper may not be the actual writer's intent and maybe the person receiving email get hundreds of unwanted email a day and reading and deleting unwanted email takes time. I get bad replies from business when I inquire about the product they are selling. In the end just don't deal with them afterall you have the money.

[3doorpete]

Nice first post....

Although I agree with your sentiment on listing a price rather than offers, it has been debated before on other threads if you search. Perhaps taking a while to settle in and appreciate some of the great positive benefits of the forum, before flaming the members and judging Tamiya Club would be a good idea.

[kontemax]

This is not a new problem. And this is not a new topic on this problem.

There's a member that say: "OPEN TO OFFERS BUT BEWARE I KNOW WHAT ITS WORTH!!"

This is pure arrogance. I'm interested in the part but will not offer and will not buy from this member. If you know what it worth give a price you want and stop the speculation.

I'm sorry to say this due the extreme respect I have in our guru and tamiyaclub creator but the cause of this problem is NetsmithUK that didn't yet modify the trade rooms.

Without a price should be impossible post a selling add on the club in the trade area. So the problem will finish. No price, no add.

I think not difficoult to realize.

If the sellers wanna do speculations go to ebay and leave clean the club for the modellers and the collectors.

Thanks

Kantemax

[adam1973]

This is not a new problem. And this is not a new topic on this problem.

There's a member that say: "OPEN TO OFFERS BUT BEWARE I KNOW WHAT ITS WORTH!!"

This is pure arrogance. I'm interested in the part but will not offer and will not buy from this member. If you know what it worth give a price you want and stop the speculation.

I'm sorry to say this due the extreme respect I have in our guru and tamiyaclub creator but the cause of this problem is NetsmithUK that didn't yet modify the trade rooms.

Without a price should be impossible post a selling add on the club in the trade area. So the problem will finish. No price, no add.

I think not difficoult to realize.

If the sellers wanna do speculations go to ebay and leave clean the club for the modellers and the collectors.

Thanks

Kantemax

I agree with you on this, I won't even offer a price if it's not "priced". If you want to sell an item, then put a price, not leave the price section empty. I can sympathise with the depends on shipping statements.

Adam

[Lemming]

I'm sorry to say this due the extreme respect I have in our guru and tamiyaclub creator but the cause of this problem is NetsmithUK that didn't yet modify the trade rooms.

Without a price should be impossible post a selling add on the club in the trade area. So the problem will finish. No price, no add.

I think not difficoult to realize.

Kontemax,

From what I can see, the problem is not the lack of price, but the attitude of members. Many members have listed items as "free to a good home" or "postage only" in the past and your idea would kill this essential part of TC. I have myself sent free parts, and received free parts from other members. Also, what's to stop people placing SWAP ads with "make me an offer" instead...

There are occasions where people genuinely don't know what something is worth, or are willing to let it go cheaply to someone who really needs it. Should those members be stopped from adding an item? I don't think that is fair at all. The solution is that there needs to be a code of conduct, and that ads which step outside of this can be reported / removed.

Bearing in mind that I personally try to always price an item I sell, and generally don't bother offering on non-priced items, due to attitude. Surely the answer is there. If you don't like the ad, don't offer. Wait for someone you know / trust / like placing an ad.

Just my thoughts

Steve

[Wrc action]

I do have to agree that there are some "rogue traders" as we could describe them but as has already been made with 22,000 members its not that suprising for there to be a few.

however there are cases where trades need to be open, I have a couple at the moment with my lotus ford 107B decal sheet I would love to add a price and looked on ebay for a similar sheet but couldnt find any so I have left it open as I dont want to price myself out of the market or let them go for penny's compared to what they are really worth.

The same with my Esc, I really dont care if I sell it and buy one with full reverse or trade my way into one so the options are open on how to get from my situation to my goal with regards the overall outcome of that item.

In conclusion I feel that whilst there does need to be some more "rules" about certain typing in trades it will self level for afterall if these people dont have there items selling then surely they will coton onto the reasons why.

regards Ryck

[V8 VW]

Hi guys,

I do hope it is a minority. It just seems a coincidence that all the models I looked at had similar off putting ad's.

Not sure what the arrogance is all about really. At the end of the day it's the seller who needs the money, so if you want my custom please try adopting a suitable attitude.

Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps they don't have any intention of selling at all. Maybe the ad was just to let everyone know they have a rare model that may be worth a few quid. If so, big deal! Thanks for letting us all know. Do you see people advertising their real (full size) cars saying "I own this premium car outright, so how about making me a silly offer for it". Er, not likely. Just advertise it for 90k ono, or whatever.

I can see some benefits of TC, but I'd only pay to become a full member to use the classified purchasing facility. As the models I want seem to attract time wasters selling them, there's no point me joining. I can visit ebay auctions for nothing and save a bunch of hassle. Perhaps the TC policy needs a review.

Aside from the classifieds nonsense, this site is good. Great to see so many pristine models in showrooms. Personally I like to buy up rare NIB, build them, then thrash them as intended. There's no fun in polishing.

[ryanbored]

COMMON SENCE AND GOOD WILL TO YOU FELLOW NEIGHBOUR.

That's how i get thru life, and without going all philisophical on you guys just let it go...

make him an offer. Even if it's miles too low, what's gonna happen? You hear nothing? He tells you to go away? Ah well- Next!

Seriously, yes there are arogant people in the world. The majority of the ones i meet pay my mortgage (I sell BMW's!) You don't have to go out for a beer with these people! And i don't see a problem with no price on there, as i do let a few things go for nothing, and i like to trade stuff also, just work round it!

And don't you dare reply negitively to these comments- dont you know who i am!?!?!

[V8 VW]

Re: BMW

Next time your in the showroom try telling a customer; "Make me an offer, you have to guess the price and read my mind. If you get it wrong, I won't even talk to you!"

Have fun people

[Blacque Jacque]

He has a very valid point, go Ryan, I dare ya

It's a shame that a new member should feel his first post on such a ngative subject, then again, most replies do seem to agree.

[ryanbored]

Re: BMW

Next time your in the showroom try telling a customer; "Make me an offer, you have to guess the price and read my mind. If you get it wrong, I won't even talk to you!"

Have fun people

Ok how about as a customer not wanting 4k or whatever more than their part exchange is worth. how about when i say "what would you like for it" they wont tell you just incase it's too low, how about not bringing your mates in to test drive the new M3 when i have to earn a living, how about not taking up my time on a saturday cos your wife is doing the shopping, how about not just wanting to know what your car is worth cos you're curious, how about... (I can go on for a while )

I'm rambling but just as i said before, most of here are in it for the love and definitely not the money- Lets try and stay friendly!

[Tamiya1/10]

He has a very valid point, go Ryan, I dare ya

It's a shame that a new member should feel his first post on such a ngative subject, then again, most replies do seem to agree.

We all melo out with age and we stop sweating the small stuff. Most people put up a guard to strangers but once we know each other we are all good guys with nothing better to do but spend every waking moment thinking about Tamiyas.

[terry.sc]

Hi V8 VW and welcome, even if it's not been the most pleasant start .

The site is so large that there are all sorts of people here. An awful lot of them just use it as a way of trading and have no interest in the rest of the site. The forums are a much smaller friendly, helpful bunch of people, and an arrogant attitude as shown by some in the trade rooms quickly gets you thrown out .

The trading room problem isn't because of the "make me an offer", it's because the people who are putting up these adverts don't think them through. Their attitude comes from putting up make me an offer ads then getting annoyed when people make them offers lower than they expected, usually they won't politely reply to your offer either unless it is big enough for them. If they just put up a price they wouldn't have any of that hassle.

The idea of the make me an offer is, for example, you have some bits and pieces left over and you let them go for whatever the best offer is, or you have something you really have no idea how much it's worth. The problem is a lot more sellers these days see it as a way of making a bit more money, by seeing if anyone will offer them more than they would advertise it for.

The "Don't bother asking my price! / Emails will be ignored! / Just offer me your best price! / Don't bother me, etc..." comes from the simple fact that most people just want to know what the seller wants for it, not to have to guess what the price is, and so saying make me an offer is the fastest way to get lots of emails asking what the price is.

Most TC members just don't bother dealing with anyone that won't even come up with a starting point for negotiations (eg best offer over...) never mind an actual price. Anyone who lists a high value item without a price, especially with a 'sensible offers please' line, is very unlikely to sell it.

This has been commented on before, if only those sellers would bother to read the forums.

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28356

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4888

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32657

And from someone who asked for a "make me an offer' and was unhappy someone offered what it was actually worth

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10447

[Lemming]

I can see some benefits of TC, but I'd only pay to become a full member to use the classified purchasing facility. As the models I want seem to attract time wasters selling them, there's no point me joining. I can visit ebay auctions for nothing and save a bunch of hassle. Perhaps the TC policy needs a review.

Aside from the classifieds nonsense, this site is good. Great to see so many pristine models in showrooms. Personally I like to buy up rare NIB, build them, then thrash them as intended. There's no fun in polishing.

##### ALL OPINIONS ARE JUST THAT #####

Joining purely for a trading purpose is (in my humble opinion) completely the wrong reason.

To me, the whole point of joining is not defined by the trade ads. If someone was to join purely for that then I think they are missing the whole purpose of the site. This is a site for enthusiasts who want to show what they own, get advice, get spares etc. The trade ads are a benefit, but anyone joining solely for that purpose to me is not an enthusiast, but is instead a trader.

Steve

[blakeatron]

I have to agree with v8vw on some points - yes i have had rude and very rude emails from 'sellers' who have been upset by my 'pathetic' offers (yes i was told that!) but being pretty new here i thought i was right and got it cheaper on ebay in the end!

Anyway, i have also had very pleasant transactions - i get very worried about sending money around the world without knowing someone - but i have easily made 5 or 6 worldwide transactions without a hitch.

As previously mentioned there are 0000's of members on here - so the percentages say you will get some of the nastier population!

I have also found that an add in the trade/sale/wtd section below gets a good, friendly responce!

[TWINSET]

There's a member that say: "OPEN TO OFFERS BUT BEWARE I KNOW WHAT ITS WORTH!!"

These are my favourites too

I think statements like that really are verging on arrogance, if you know what something's worth, then just advertise it as XX or best offer.

To an unfamiliar buyer, it must appear as one of those "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" type of deals, and they'll then stroll off to ebay for a valuation and buy something there instead.

I try to price everything now, mainly because it gets rid of it quicker as I'm not waiting for the buyer to get back to me about a price, but also because if I have something to sell then I figure I should know what I want for it, even if that's higher or lower than the 'market value'

I can see some benefits of TC, but I'd only pay to become a full member to use the classified purchasing facility. As the models I want seem to attract time wasters selling them, there's no point me joining. I can visit ebay auctions for nothing and save a bunch of hassle. Perhaps the TC policy needs a review.

You can 'use' the purchasing facility whether you're a member or not, TC doesn't get involved in transactions in the traderooms, nor does it make money from them, the only time you 'need' to be a paid-up member is when you want to sell items on the homepage.

Even then, if you're not a member you can sell in the classifieds area, which is a seperate, pay-to-sell area for non-subscribers.

[V8 VW]

I'm no trader!

I buy and properly use the occasional car as intended. I don't collect for the sake of it, stockpiling, polishing or exhibiting stuff. I certainly wouldn't invest in a large static collection, particularly with Tamiya's track record. Today's 2k sand buggy is tomorrows 100 re-release. Buy 'em and bin 'em - just have fun along the way. The younger generations won't value these, as they grew up with different models and toys. It's a shrinking market imho. No point being too precious about it. No doubt some of you will be shocked if I bought an NIB Bruiser and Avante only to have great fun driving them about

[TWINSET]

No doubt some of you will be shocked if I bought an NIB Bruiser and Avante only to have great fun driving them about

Probably not, heard it all before and the general philosophy here is "each to their own, just don't bother trying to inflict it on others"

[Bluefoot]

Probably not, heard it all before and the general philosophy here is "each to their own, just don't bother trying to inflict it on others"

Well said that man...

[Lemming]

No doubt some of you will be shocked if I bought an NIB Bruiser and Avante only to have great fun driving them about

Check peoples showrooms - until last month I was running 2 Avante's - 1 standard and 1 fully hopped. Many people do different thing on here from NIB to Shelf Queen to Runners. All of us still love sharing them. Best reason to subscribe is to show what you personally enjoy and meet like minded people.

Probably not, heard it all before and the general philosophy here is "each to their own, just don't bother trying to inflict it on others"

Nicely put Andy!

[kontemax]

Kontemax,

From what I can see, the problem is not the lack of price, but the attitude of members. Many members have listed items as "free to a good home" or "postage only" in the past and your idea would kill this essential part of TC. I have myself sent free parts, and received free parts from other members. Also, what's to stop people placing SWAP ads with "make me an offer" instead...

There are occasions where people genuinely don't know what something is worth, or are willing to let it go cheaply to someone who really needs it. Should those members be stopped from adding an item? I don't think that is fair at all. The solution is that there needs to be a code of conduct, and that ads which step outside of this can be reported / removed.

Bearing in mind that I personally try to always price an item I sell, and generally don't bother offering on non-priced items, due to attitude. Surely the answer is there. If you don't like the ad, don't offer. Wait for someone you know / trust / like placing an ad.

Just my thoughts

Steve

Hi Steve,

I agree with you but is really easy to put some gate without damage honest people. I also sometime received and sent goods for free or for postage costs. This right problem you spot it's easy to solve.

Just a "For Free" or "At shipping costs" box is needed, no more. The seller should choose between this box or a filled price box. The blank pricebox adds will not posted on the club.

Let's remember this is not an ebay little son, this is the Tamiyaclub web site, just for fans, collectors and Tamiya lovers.

Yes, it's easy don't contact the speculator but in my honest opinion is better they don't have space here.

Speculators go back to ebay!

My thoughs, no more.

Cheers

Kontemax

[Lemming]

Hi Steve,

I agree with you but is really easy to put some gate without damage honest people. I also sometime received and sent goods for free or for postage costs. This right problem you spot it's easy to solve.

Just a "For Free" or "At shipping costs" box is needed, no more. The seller should choose between this box or a filled price box. The blank pricebox adds will not posted on the club.

Let's remember this is not an ebay little son, this is the Tamiyaclub web site, just for fans, collectors and Tamiya lovers.

Yes, it's easy don't contact the speculator but in my honest opinion is better they don't have space here.

Speculators go back to ebay!

My thoughs, no more.

Cheers

Kontemax

Hi Kontemax,

Excellent idea! I didn't think of something like that I'm either getting too old, or simply too tired to think straight recently. A 1 year old has that effect!

n the opposite side, any thought on how to allow members to advertise things they are happy to sell but which they genuinely don't know the price of. Examples from my end are the original brand new in packet "RW Racing Manta-Ray Gear Chart" (only of interest to a collector maybe) and a used but complete "RW Racing Carbon Propshaft and Cups for the Manta-Ray / Top Force". I have no idea of values on these, and having to put a price would therefore stop me being able to list these (can't find any others to base a price on even).

The only remaining issue (one I don't know how to sort) is reducing the number of Traders on TC, rather than enthusiasts. For example, I have a load of parts which I would happily send to members who need them for the cost of shipping, but I have not listed them because I want them to go to a good home, not someone who will trade them on for a profit. It seems TC has become something other than what it was intended to be...

Examples of what I have are Avante parts, TXT-1 parts, Thundershot parts, TA-01 / Manta Ray parts etc. Except the TXT parts, I probably could use some of the others if I break any of my existing models so not much point selling them, but would happily send them on if it got others running.

You are right though, the first thing we need to do is remove the ability for Traders to abuse the system and then hope we can change TC as a whole back to what it used to be...

Cheers

Steve

p.s. If we can iron this out here, we can send some idea's to Chris and see what he thinks, so this is all helpful if others want to join in!!!

[Lemming]

Some Initial Idea's for Trade Adverts...

These are ideas gleaned from the conversation so far - Comments will be appreciated.

If this goes anywhere, I will add a Poll thread to see what people think

Types of Ads

1. Sale (Fixed Price) - Put up desired price

2. Sale (ONO Price) - Put up desired price

3. Sale (Unknown Value) - Not allowed anything in text description other than description - No warning on offers etc

4. Swap (plus what you want to trade for) - NOT "or sale" unless clear price is shown - this is direct trades only (can include cash difference to make up differences)

5. Ebay (as it is now)

We would need to be more pro-active at self policing (as we should be doing now) and report ads which step outside of these boundaries so that they can be removed.

Other Thoughts...

1. The waiting period before you can add it again should remain

2. Limited number of adverts to be placed per day, per user (maybe 2?) - It becomes a pain when a user adds 14 different parts for 1 model in a single go - Add it as "Avante Parts" and then list within, otherwise it knocks other sales off the page

3. Would it be possible to have a code for showroom entries which we could use for our trade history? e.g. 12345678 - Trade History - This would then be a SINGLE showroom entry per user, showing who they have dealt with and how they think it went. This should enable users to look-up a seller and then if required contact people that seller has previously traded with. Maybe have the "Trade History" link on all For Sale ads?

As usual, these are just my thoughts / opinions (they do combine what other people have commented on) and I am after thoughts / feedback where possible before making a poll with final ideas.

Cheers all

Steve

[Gruntfuggly]

Interesting thread. I've suggested to Chris before, but nothing came of it - one way to 'implement' a sort of feedback/honest traders type system would be to allow member page contents to be searched. At the moment, only showrooms are searched. A lot of people have put lists of people they have dealt with successfully in the past, in their main pages. If you wanted to find out about a member, you would simply search for their name...