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TAZ-NZ

Guide To Blackfoot Chassis Reliability Mods.

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Also, please don't post in threads that have been dormant for 2 years now.

Yeah I'm Sorry, but I thought my question fitted perfectly in here.

I already got that rod out.

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Yeah I'm Sorry, but I thought my question fitted perfectly in here.

I already got that rod out.

Great, so the problem is solved then <_<

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Just stumbled across this guide and thought it was worth a bump as there's some excellent info here!!

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With the Monster Beetle re-re getting us all a little over-excited, I thought it worth giving this excellent post a bump.

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On 1/25/2009 at 6:36 AM, TAZ-NZ said:

The link on my original post has been dead for some months, and while I kept a copy zipped on my harddrive for those people the sent me PM to see if I still had a copy, I figured it was time I updated it a little, and posted it where it was availablet to everyone again.

So here it is again, there have been a lot of changes, a few additions here and there a couple of new mods to replace old expensive ones, a few old spelling mistakes corrected and probably a dozen new ones made :rolleyes:

 

How to tweak a orgianl Blackfoot chassis to be a modern day runner.

(applicable to Original Blackfoot, Monster Beetle & Mud Blaster)

 

 

This list of tweaks and mods for orginal blackfoot chassis, that will increase it's strength, reliablity, and handling, without effecting it's basic looks and character. It's based on the knowledge I've accumulated over the last four years while building, repairing and modding a number ORV Chassis kits.

Note: the following presumes you have a stock chassis that is complete and in basic working order. If you haven't already download a copy of the Blackfoot manual, it wouldn't hurt to grab the Super Blackfoot manual too.

To start with is a list of mods that should be done to any blackfoot chassis before using it as a runner.

1) Get yourself a Super/King Blackfoot B-Parts Tree, Tamiya part No: 9005350, as picture below, you will also need six 3x8mm self tapping screws (parts BB6).

htree.jpgS9005350.jpg

You want to remove the original servo cover (part G9) and remove the original aluminum MSC mounting tray, replace this with the plastic B1 part off the new B-parts tree and screw it into place with four of the 3x8mm screws. This allows you to mount the new servo cover (part B10) to both the front shock tower (part J11) and to the new B1 part using the remaining two 3x8mm screws, in doing this the new servo cover acts as a brace the front shock tower. This greatly reducing the chances of breaking the front shock tower.

2) Get a new set of Frog/Brat re-release diff bevel gears as pictured below.

bevelgears.jpg

These should always be replaced on any used chassis even then they look ok. This is the greatest weak point of the whole frog family chassis and always wear badly. (For the fix for the wear issue see item 3)

3) Buy a set of Frog/Brat universal joint axles, Tamiya Part No: 53908 (note get them from ebay they are cheaper there), you will also need 2.5x25mm counter sunk screw, some lock tight, and diff grease.

universals.jpg

Apply the oldfrogshot's screw mod to the drive cups, use the screw to hold the drive cups together as per the mod, apply some diff grease to the head of the screw and the bottom of the unthreaded drive cup so that it slips with ease, use the lock tight on the tip of the screw thread to lock it in place in threaded drive cup as pre the mod. (the screw mod is a must do, unless you like replacing the bevel gears ever half dozen battery charges)

4) Ball bearing kit, replace all the plastic bush bearings and the stock transmission bearings with new bearings. If you using the stock blackfoot spur gear you'll need ten 5 x 11 x 4mm bearings and two 10x 5 x 8 x 2.5mm bearings, if your using the Frog/Brat re-release two piece spur gear you'll need twelve 5 x 11 x 4mm bearings.

bearings.jpg

This takes a lot of the slope out the wheels and axles and makes them run smoother. (Note: Many of the ebay bearing kits don't include enough bearings to replace both the plastic bushes and the shock bearings, so are best avoided)

That ends the first section of must do's, now onto the highly recommend mods.

5) Buy a Super blackfoot/Dush Devil damper bag, Tamiya part No 9405685, cut the rubber tube SD8 and fit to radius arm screws, as seen in the picture below.

rubberbushes.jpg

This helps remove a lot of slop out of the front suspension.

6) Presuming your using a modern radio gear with an ESC (Electronic Speed control) you only need one servo, so get your self some continously threaded rod. Mount your servo at an angle so that it's is centered to the chassis as, in the image below. At the same time I suggest binning the stock servo saver in favour of a Kimbrough Item.

servo3.jpgservosaver.jpg

Then make new steering rods by cutting the threaded rod to length. This fixes the un-even steering and makes the car corner equally well in both directions. (don't waste money on ebay heavy duty steering kits)

7) Pickup two sets of Yeah Racing 80mm alloy shocks and some damper fluid, these can be picked up cheap on ebay, and a huge improvement of the both the stock friction and CVA shocks, as they have threaded adjusters and multiple spring sets so you can adjust the spring rates and pre-load to improve handling. (Ther are avilable in blue, silver, black, but don't come filled with damper fluid, so you need to purchase it seperatly.)

shocks.jpg

8) Pickup a Mad Bull Steering Arm Bag, Tamiya Part no: 9415376, a Super/King Blackfoot F-tree, Tamiya Part no: 0005419, 2x BA7 3mm Flanged nuts, and 2x 3x20m count sunk bolts.

steering.jpgfpart.jpg

You only need the left & right uprights for the Mad bull steering bag, fit the left upright to the super blackfoot F3 part and the right to F2 part (this is the opposite to the super blackfoot manual) to do this you can either cut down the black stock BM3 parts to lenght or grab a Super Blackfoot rod bag, Tamiya part No: 9405687 and use the BS4 parts from that.

uprights.jpg

Then mount onto each of the uprights using the 3x20mm counter sunk bolts and the BA7 3mm flanged nuts, a bolt though ballend like those circle in the picture of yeah racing damper kit above.

assembled.jpg

Replace the end of the shock that attachs to the front suspension arm with a smartard 4mm rod end and clip this over the ballend you've just mounted, everything else mounts just like the stock item.

9) Pick your self up a set of Re-release Frog/Brat pressed parts and a 3x8mm screw (part BB6), remove the origirnal short aluminum under tray and fit the longer frog version of the under tray.

skidplate.jpg

This braces the front of the chassis better and stops it flexing, which helps handling.

10) Remove the posts for your newly install plastic MSC mount (see picture below) and fit your receive there so it is protected under the servo cover. (don't mount your ESC here it will tend to overheat)

mscmount.jpg

11) Get yourself two 3x20mm screws (parts BA3) and two 3mm nuts (parts BA7), remove the screw holding the rear body mounts (parts J1,J6) to the chassis, replace the original 3x15mm with the new longer screws, once the screw clear the chassis place the nuts on and tighten them down. This stops the body mounts moving about and helps prevent the G1 part breaking. (the G1 is extremely hard to get these days)

12) Think about getting a set of CRP heavy duty rear shock mounts.

mounts.jpg

Replace the stock items (parts J8,J9) with these, they flex less that the stock items and help the keep the rear shocks straight, reducing stress of the rear arms. (These are a vintage hop-up but are fairly easy to come by on ebay)

13) Replace the rear swing arm support (parts K3,K7) with the aluminum frog items you got with the pressed parts.

supports.jpg

These don't flex and help keep the rear end from sagging. Grease them with candle wax to help reduce wear. (I suggest getting them Annodized black or painting them black to keep the stock look)

14) Use the two screws (parts BA4) you took out of the body mounts, and get two 3mm nuts(BA7), remove the screws mounting the shocks to the rear swing arms, With a drill bit the same diameter as the BA4 screws, enlarge the shock mounting holes in the rear arms so that new screw just fit with out needing to be screwed it, re-assembly with the BA4 screws using the 3mm nuts to hold them in place.

shock.jpg

This reduces the stress of the mounting holes and helps stop them cracking.

15) Pickup a complete set of re-release Frog/Brat transmission and pinon gears and make sure you get the wire C-Clip.(note the original brass frog counter gear & a steal pinon will wear better than the re-release aluminum items) Also see if you can pickup a CRP adjustable motor mount or the modern CRA Preformance version pictured below.

spurgears.jpgpinongears.jpgmotormount.jpg

This will allow you change your gear ratios and run non-standard gear combos, a must for tuning your setup to match a modern high preformance motor.

16) See if you can hunt down a Trinity rear sway bar kit, helps the rear end a no end, stops roll overs when corning at speed & stop the rear swing arms (parts B6) spreading, which causes the the rear axles to jump out of the drive cups.

swaybar.jpgswayinstalled.jpgzzzzzz.jpg

CRA Preformance also makes a reproduction version of the sway bar kit now, that can be found on ebay from time to time.

17) Get yourself tamiya style hump pack battery that is designed to fit an old school frog/blackfoot chassis battery compartment, or if you have need for speed like me, get a custom 8.4v 7 cell pack made.

battery2.jpgbattery1.jpgbattery3.jpg

That's it for now, keep on bashing.

One of these days I'll be able to bring myself to tear down my blackfoot at take pictures of all the mods, but until then sorry to those poeple who's pictures I've nicked. ;)

I'd like to add my own bits to this...  I've upgraded my Original Frog and a used EBAY Bush Devil with these instructions...  I thought I could add my own experience and hopefully help someone else in their future ORV rebuild!

I'll make my comments in same order as Taz...

1 - I picked up a B1 and B10.  I shaved off the top  mount pegs so I could mount a TBLE-02s on top (no fan)...  The B10 works well to shield things from debris and support the front shock tower.

2 - I'm running Throp, so I have no comment other than new gears is better than old gears!

3 - I have read in the MB re-re thread here that Tamiya 9808038 (pair of dogbones) and Tamiya 9808039 (pair of rear axles) is now the recommended upgrade.  Again, I can't really comment since I'm running a Thorp/Traxxas/Robinson hybrid system...  No comment on OldFrogShot Screw Mod...

4 - Bearings are a must.  As cheap as they are, I'm not sure why they aren't included in the Kits...  

5 - I didn't use rubber tubing, but some old brass tubes I had on both my Frog and Bush Devil.  Washer at the top...

6 - I bought a 3D print center mount plate for both my Frog and BD.  Works great...  Kimbrough Servo Saver...  

7 - Yes, Yeah Racing or similar shocks...  Pick your favorite...

8 - Recommended.  I mounted my shock on the top outer screw rather than on the usual shock mount point - my tires were rubbing...

9 - Yes, get the Frog Skid Plate.  If you have the SBF/BD front bumper, you'll have to trim it to fit properly, but its easy work...

10 - Yes, though I did mount my ESC there...  I have run into zero overheat problems with my BD...

11 - No comment.

12 - I recommend CRP parts at all points, if you can find them...

13 - If you can't find the CRP parts (as shown in #14), use the Frog swing arm supports...

14 - There are various braces that will add additional support via connecting the the second hole down from the top...  Try to find some...

15 - New gears, yes!

16 - No comments, my BD has no issue with roll-over, and the only reason my Frog does is b/c its way to fast for the way I drive!

17 - Use the battery of your choice and pad it with stick on felt that goes on the bottom of chair legs...

Additional recommendations:

1 - Get SBF C5s and C8 and replace the short BF arms with the long one.

2 - Get adjustable turnbuckle steering rods and ball-ends...  Dubro... 

3 - CRP parts all the way.  

  

Here is a link to my Frog:

Here is my BD thread, with some dead photo links...

Thanks for letting me ramble...

Terry

 

 

 

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Original list of mods can be found here…

Additional feedback/comments can be found here…



In the coming few weeks I will be starting on a BF project. It hasn’t been run in over 10 years, wasn’t mine originally, also wasn’t the previous owners originally, nobody seems to know what might be hidden inside, but it definitely needs some restoration and modification.

I have some questions/comments about the mods listed previously in this thread and whether they are all still relevant or if there are better/modern options…I mean this thread is 15 years old and the most recent post with feedback/addition input is over 6 years old, the chassis it is based on dates back 40 years (the Brat was first released July 30, 1983 from the info I can find) but with reissues of the ORV chassis as recently as 2019 I figured this thread could use a bump to see if everything is still relevant for others and not just me.

I will organize my questions/comments/thoughts as Taz and Frog Jumper have just to keep the pattern consistent.

 

1a. S/KBF parts are extremely difficult to find. I have found a 3d print file of the S/KBF MSC plate, but not the dust cover. Anybody know of a 3d print file for the dust cover, or know where I can source both parts NOS or used?

1b. (And relating to #11 and #12 with more comments on those later) Is this still the best way to stiffen the upper portion of the chassis? Is the S/KBF MSC plate/dust cover still a relevant mod if I go the route of the CRP parts that ties various points of the chassis together from front to rear (front shock mount, forward rear shock mount, CRP body mount brace, rear body mounts)? Are the CRP parts enough on their own? Would it make a bigger difference to have the S/KBF parts AND the CRP parts?

2. (Side note: I think I have a surprise awaiting me inside the transmission on my BF project, but more on that in my upcoming build thread) I assume with the reissue of the MIP Ball Diff, the easiest option to make a drastic improvement here would be MIP and if for some reason somebody doesn’t want a ball diff then replace the gears with the Frog/Brat gears?

3. Where is the MB re-re thread mentioned by Frog Jumper? I have searched but can’t seem to locate it.

4. I am likely going with rubber sealed metal bearings, unless somebody can justify the added cost for ceramic in what will be a light runner on mixed terrain. I am looking at FastEddy, any other brands available in Canada/USA to consider or avoid like the plague?

5. I intend to use silicone aquarium tubing, but recall reading that this mod could negatively affect suspension travel by tightening too much…thoughts?

6a. There are varying options in the 3d print world, most appear to just simply do the job of centering the servo, however, I’ve seen Frog Jumper mention the CMC V2 version that moves the servo back further in the chassis. Does the CMC V2 play nice with the S/KBF MSC plate mentioned in #1? Is the CMC V2 only needed to make room if there is a plan to use the add-on servo horn bracket from CMC? Or does the CMC V2 improve the steering in some other way?

6b. Which Kimbrough part number should be used? Their website shows various model numbers for various sizes depending on which servo it is going on…what size Kimbrough do I want? Does that choice change if I am going to use the CMC add-on servo horn bracket?

7. I am going with new black CVA shocks from a reissue, they are relatively easy to come by and the price seemed right.

8a. What is the point of this mod? I assume it is to cut down on bump steer, it’s just not mentioned anywhere? I can find the Mad Bull parts, but as in #1 the S/KBF parts are hard to find unless I want to go with 3d prints, I’ve read 3d prints are not the most durable when it comes to steering/suspension parts, so not sure i want to go that route. I’ve also seen mentions of Parma (haven’t seen any available), CRP (expensive), home made/rigged using ball risers, etc. What is the best current option for this mod without drastically changing the design/character of the BF?

8b. I am going to bring in #1 from Frog Jumper’s “Additional Recommendations” here because I think it relates. First, as mentioned before S/KBF parts are difficult to find, although these parts are available as 3d prints, again I have read 3d prints in steering/suspension is not the most durable. The real question here though…if the swap to the longer S/KBF arms is done, are different metal radius arms (the parts mentioned above in #5 that you put the tubing inside) required as well? I would assume longer control arms would require longer radius arms. I have yet to see S/KBF metal radius arms anywhere, but had a thought about using metal shock mount brackets from a GH2 mounted with screws at each end and rig up a replacement for the radius arm using rod ends and threaded rod/turnbuckles. I figure the rod ends would still allow for movement and the threaded rod/turnbuckles can be adjusted to a suitable tension…thoughts?

9. Frog skid plate is still easy to source, I’ve also seen some CRP versions out there and various 3d print versions…any reason not to use the Frog part?

10. How is the ESC holding up under the dust cover?

11. (And relating to 12 and my comments above in 1b) I fully intend to use the longer screws, but I’ve also seen a post/thread somewhere (can’t find it now) that uses a 6mmx48mm internal threaded metal rod (Tamiya part) in place of the recommended nuts to secure the screws. The explanation I read was that in addition to the strength gained from the longer screws/nuts it ties the two sides of the body mounts together at the chassis like the brace that is used up higher. Add in the CRP parts mentioned in #1b above and in #12 below and it should be the ultimate reinforcement of the rear body mounts. I am awaiting a full replacement A parts chassis because both of the body post mounts are completely broken off the existing chassis. Thoughts?

12. These shock mounts are completely missing on my BF and a past owner rigged up some booty fab vertical shock mounts with shelving brackets etc., for now I will be using stock replacement parts because I needed the J parts tree for something else (can’t think of what right now), but will likely swap to the CRP parts in the future.

13. I have the Frog parts coming because they are in the same bag as the skid plate needed for #9. As for the CRP parts, I can’t seem to find any pictures or write-ups/instructions that show how to install them and where the cylindrical parts mount on the BF, I just can’t wrap my head around how the cylindrical parts are used.

14. I’ve seen various versions from a flat metal plate that ties the two holes together to 3d printed versions, is the Ampro 3d printed metal version worth what seems like a high price (when compared to 3d printed plastic) from Shapeways?

15. (Side note: I am hoping for a surprise inside my transmission when I eventually open it up, pretty certain there is at least one surprise in there but hoping for two), do these recommended gears work with the Ball Diff options out there?

15b. As for the CRP/CRA adjustable motor mount, hard to find and/or expensive, but lots of Chinese or 3d printed options out there…when using an adjustable motor mount what pinions are needed? I have read about Thorp extra long pinions, but they are hard to find and expensive when you do find them, any other options? Also any direction/thoughts on choosing pinion size, obviously it depends at least some on motor choice etc. but is there somewhere to read some basics about where to start?

16. Lots of Chinese versions available if you can’t find an original Trinity, I will wait and see how mine runs, I plan to go with a lexan body (more on that later) so I m hoping some of the weight savings up high will help lessen the likelihood of rolling.

17. I am planing to go with 2s Lipo. I have looked at the battery door/lower chassis brace Ampro used on the double wishbone rear suspension conversion and the side entry removable battery side plate/door. He mentions the new side entry battery door adds a little extra room, hoping it would allow for the average 2s Lipo pack to fit. If it doesn’t then I have found a 3d print file for 1/2/3/4mm spacers for the battery side plates that should help.

 

Frog Jumper’s Additional Recommendations

1. Addressed with additional questions in my #8b comments above.

2. I assume this is for the steering? Any suggestions on lengths or brands for an easy to find modern solution?

3. But of course!

 

My additional comments

 

1. Bodies - there is no trace of an original body with my BF, it does have an unknown source hard body that resembles a 97-04 (10th gen) F150 body, the wheelbase doesn’t match (too short if I remember correctly) but that could be solved with trimming if I wanted. I am thinking I don’t want that much weight up that high, so I am leaning towards lexan. The old Parma (I think) BF lexan replacement doesn’t seem to be available anywhere. The best option I can find appears to be the Proline PRO341200 1/10 1966 F100 for a Stampede, wheelbase is listed as 10.1”, BF has a 9.72” wheelbase according to Google, that leaves a difference of about 3/8” which i think can be addressed through body placement and trimming of wheel wells. I’d much rather have a GMC/Chevy body, but the BF has always been Ford and even this Chevy guy would have trouble putting anything other than a Ford body on it. Any other lexan options out there to consider?

2. Tires - any 2.2” truck tires fit the original BF wheels? No specialty sizes that are hard to find like some of the Tamiya buggies? Thinking of current model stadium truck tires for regular running, maybe something like a brasher/gravel tire to use on mixed terrain.

3. Motor recommendations? I want to stay brushed, don’t want to spend a lot…thinking either a modern Sport Tuned or Torque Tuned, I figure the Torque Tuned would be better with the added weight of the BF vs say a buggy.

4. Servo specs? Currently has a vintage Futaba S3003 or 148 (can’t remember which right now), if I am going to replace the servo, what kind of minimum specs for torque and speed should be considered?

 

That’s about all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance for responses.

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First off, imo you should disassemble, clean, and reassemble your BF and leave it as is.  OG plastics get brittle over time and (based on my my own experience) you’ll end up replacing a lot of the plastic with ReRe.  Screws get stripped or rusty, etc.

But to go through your notes…

1a. Neither part is required and the Frog metal MSC plate and the ReRe metal bars work just as well to provide lateral support.  The dust cover is a good method to support the front shock brace and you should keep and eye out for one.

1b.  If you plan on piecing together a CRP setup, you won’t need the SBF cover and you can use the standard BF dust cover.  Both versions of the dust cover will work in conjunction with the CRP setup.  I personally think the CRP setup is a required upgrade.

2a.  I own an MIP but I have never installed it.  I also have a Thorp in one of my Frogs, the standard ReRe gears and Frog dogbones in two others.  I’ve also run a Robinson.  The Robinson was nice but replacement parts are next to impossible to find and expensive when you do.  The Thorp is awesome but it’s a ball diff and by definition is fiddly and required regular adjustment.  The kit gears are reliable and cheap and easy to replace.  At this point, I prefer the Frog gears with the Frog ‘bones.  I have not tried any of the CVD shafts.  I’ve also never done the FrogShot mod.  I use the MHeald tranny brace and a couple of the Xeostar braces.  IMO, I think the brace is a required upgrade bc it eliminates the need to upgrade the gears or do the FrogShot mod.

3.  I can’t find the thread now either  too tired to do the serious searching.

4. Bearings of your choice.  I buy Fast Eddy bc it’s easy.

5. I still use the brass tubes with a washer on top.  On one of my Frogs, I’ve eliminated the radius arms altogether.

6. The CMC v2 plays nicely with the SBF msc plate.  It made to work with it actually, but also to fit the larger Kimbrough HD servo savers. (Kimbrough #124).

7. 50520s are my go to for BFs.  50519 for the front of a Frog.  You’ll have to limit the downstroke so as not not bind the dogbones.

8. The only thing I can think of as to why you would this mod is that the KBF/SBF knuckles are more common (I think they’re the same as many other chassis’).  Yes you will need longer radius arms.  Search and find my 12mm hex front mod.

9. Frog or CRP plate is required.  I prefer the CRP.  Look for the center plate from ampro on Shapeways.

10.  It was fine, until it died.  I’ve since made a new DIY mount and have mounted my new ESC where the original AA receiver battery pack used to sit.  I cut a hole in my SBF msc plate for the fan.

11.  I’m using different rear mounts depending on the ORV.  No comments except that the CRP setup above will work with the kit rear BF mounts (no need to get the very rare CRP rear mounts), and you should get the aluminum cross member to replace the horrible plastic one. The CRP setup will protect the rear mounts.

12.  Get the CRPs now.  You’re going to need them anyways.

13. The CRP part is far superior to the Frog part.  The advantage is that you can run a threaded rod through the lower hole, through the tranny (the unused battery clip hole) to the other side.  Loosening or tightening this helps with slop.  The little tube piece goes inside the tranny case where the swing arms insert.

14.  The metal ampro ones are nice.  The DIY plexiglass ones I took off a beat up eBay BF are nicer.  Just pick something and go for it.  This is a required upgrade.

15a. Each third party gear set will have its own recommendations.  Be sure to research.  For example, the Robinson ball diffs use imperial pitch.  Thorp is a clone of Frog. MIP uses the BF spur.

15b. The CRP mount is the easiest to work with.  The CRA is just a metal version of it.  There is a round mount that works but is a pain to mount.  You will need a Thorp extra long pinion unless you use a motor with a long shaft,  even then I would recommend the Thorp extra long steel.

16.  I think the sway bar is junk.  There is a better design out there but I haven’t tested it yet.

17.  The CRP battery clip is junk.  Use the Frog clip.  Use the leftover plastic bushing bearings as spacers for the battery holders.

FJ additional comments:

1. N/A

2.  The length of your turnbuckle will depend on the lengths of your suspension arms and the ball ends you use.  I recommend using cheap M3 threaded rod (cut to length) to determine the length you need, then buying a turnbuckle around me the same length.  If need be, get one a couple of mm too long and cut off the excess.

3.  Yes CRP all the way!

Additional additional questions:

1. Lexan bodies.  The Tamiya Landfreeder is the same as the Bush Devil and will fit.  All others will need work of some sort to fit.

2. Any 2.2 truck tire will fit.  2.2 buggy tires are too skinny.  Be sure NOT to get 2.2/3.0 tires which will not fit.  I still love Imex and Proline tires the most.

3. Motor?  Torque tuned.  Or mild brushless.  See HobbyWing.

4. Servo?  I’m currently a fanboy of Power Hobby servos.  I’m using a #130MG servo in my main runner and I love it.  Fast, lots of torque, waterproof, metal gears and case.

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