M04 Based 2wd Dakar Buggy Development Thread

[Wrc action 0]

Right Simple bit of fun, Im going to add hopefully an item from the build list a day to the picture of that this project is.

He who guesses what i am making will get a kitkat posted to there workplace for a tasty breaktime snack on me

so Your first pic and just to confirm that this is a real car.

Best Wishes

Ryck

Edited May 25, 2008 by TWINSET
Title changed from "Guess The Project?"

[ryanbored 3]

Off Road motorbike (Only 2 wheels!!)

[dready 0]

I think and bare in mind I've had One too many stella's so i apologise now, read on if you dare....

the Top gear Nissank that crossed the channel

Hi-lift 3speed chassis with a wacking great electric brushless ouboard motor on the back for when you want to drive to the lake and go sailing but with only one car!

Great idea for a project that.

now where's that spare hi-lift (hick!)

[Wrc action 0]

Dready - most imaginative idea and one that I confess to have looked at, using one of those kyosho outboards where everything is built in, Just thourgh that sinking a highlift wasnt for me when it could be better used for a support truck like my other thread http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=38015

so thats a no to ure guess,

ryanbored - Interesting, tho no think bike making and the gyro is a little over my current abilities.

Looks like my kitkat is still safe

[igbandy 34]

Bowler Wildcat crawler type thing

well maybe not a crawler as such, but a Wildcat with solid axles and coil springs, as opposed to the other model Wildcats

[Badboy 94]

Trophytruck!!!

Badboy

[twisty 8]

Some kind of rally raid car,mabe a buggy like the Schlesser or Honda powered Saluki 2wd.

If i win can you auction the Kit Kat and send the proceeds to charity please.

I am trying to loose some weight

[blakeatron 16]

oh, oh i know! is it what you told me about - the one that you bought that thing off me for (that was posted today)

i think i seen them tyres before too....

[Wrc action 0]

igbandy - Could well be, got a bowler that I am doing slowly and perhaps dad will do a proper chassis for the 280mm 110 landrover shell that I got him for xmas,

blakeatron - shhhhhh or not any more as it seem.

twisty - Go on I'll give u it, Im looking to make a schlesser machine with the MO4L chassis that blakeatron has sold me, Along with the infernal beetle shell :@

Also Arrived today is the MO4/MO3 carbon shafts from Joel so cheers for those bud,

The Aim is to keep the chassis and shell down to around 1300 grams some 400/500 grams lighter than the touareg, which also with the lower ratio I can afford to run should give this thing like the real schlesser a distinct speed advantage even if thr traction isnt always there!

Thinking about the shell I know nikko made a schlesser can on there jump chassis, anyone know where one of those is lying around? Failing that I am looking at making a shell semi-scale based on a cut up touring car with a cockpit style centre, Any Ideas?

Cheers

Ryck

Lets start the bidding for twisty's kitkat here,

Starting 1p?

what charity do u want to send it to? alcholics anonamos?

[Wrc action 0]

Update picture the item for joel today that was going to be your second clue.

[twisty 8]

Yeah i win,good luck with the build,take plenty of pics and keep us posted please.

[thesuper 1]

Wrc action...did tamiya even make a shell like what you need?

[dready 0]

is it something like this?

i think it's made by cen.

[dready 0]

With a bit of time i'm sure you could convert a toe rag shell into something similar.

[terry.sc 16]

Cen made a Schlesser buggy on their basic nitro buggy chassis. Not much good for a Mo4 chassis as it's buggy size and fits perfectly on a Manta Ray

BTW Tamiya were going to make a Schlesser Buggy, model number 58238, based on a TL01 chassis, but it never made production and it resurfaced as the Stadium Raider with a truck body.

Photos of Tamiyas prototype here

[dready 0]

Got to be an easier route to take to find a cen body and build the chassis round it surely.

How about two m04 chassis put together.

Twin engined four wheel drive would go like stink!!!

[Wrc action 0]

Well my MO4l arrived yesterday - many thanks to blakeatron again will add pics l8er when i get home.

The plan is to use the TL01 LA suspension set or the TB01 LA/TB02 set if that fits to keep the overall parts down between my models in order to limit the spare parts that i need to carry when out running my cars.

I will also need to make a new frotn suspension mount and uprate the shocks to get more groundclearance and better damping.

I am going to add a few more spacers for the M chassis - If anyone has any spare they would want to sell/send me that would be superb (Y)

On the shell front im not going to use the carson one as its not a fav of mine and at 235mm wide is in between sandviper and normal touring car width, What I plan to do is to make a shell from parts using a central part from something like a CLK GTR and then custom making the rear end and front end parts out of plasticard and alloy for a front sump gaurd. call it more semi scale/close scale than 100% accurate as the cuts on the buggy changes year to year,

Best Wishes

Ryck

[Wrc action 0]

update - My shinny new built donar chassis arrived on wednesday from blakeatron (yes wonder why u have seen it before ) Last night I set about stripping out all the "VW" parts such as the wheels, suspension and driveshafts which will need to make way for a much more stable and long span set up.

Once these parts where all disposed off I was left with what I wanted, a very simple and lightweight chassis that should prove ideal for a schlesser style buggy with its lightweight and good supple suspension.

After doing this I looked into my parts box to see what suspension sets would fit, And rather nicely found that the TB01 LA set fitted on. So that would say on spare parts with my TB01 rally car sharing the same bits.

However before I went and brought a whole new LA set I also remembered that for the short term I have a whole TB01 stock suspension set in my bits box upstairs so have setabout installing that, the issues and solutions of which will be in the next thread, so stay posted........

Cheers

Ryck

[thesuper 1]

Wrc action.....i'm gonna be watching this one closely.....

i wonder mostly about the suspension mount points up front. how will you get the top portion of the damper that connects to the chassis to reach the lower arms from such a severe angle? let me know what sort of solutions you come up with.

also....for some reason....the M04 body mounts are set further apart than all the touring mounts. weird, no? i can't figure out how to correct for that.

[terry.sc 16]

This is starting to remind me of ChrisBs M04 Stratos rally car conversion, except he used TL01 suspesnion - all that was available at the time http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4255

[Wrc action 0]

thesuper - well the front mounts will be solved in a very similar way to chrisB's with the making of a new front upper shock mount. as for the odd body mounts these wont be a major issue owing to the custom nature of the shell that I will be producing to put on this shell.

terry.sc - yeah I know of ChrisB's thread and its a great model. Im off to take a look and see if there are any hints that I can draw from it.

As as update the TB01 suspension is all on and I have made new links for the front steering as well as having to remove some chassis material for the right stroke.

Also added 2 of the now redundant Tb02 driveshafts as the stock Tb01 shafts are to short and kept poping out as I turned the machine over on my desk.

Best Wishes

Ryck

[thesuper 1]

thesuper - Yeah mine is an MO4 but it needs to be full length 257 so I needed another spacer that Mad Ax very kindly sent me so all should be sorted on that now.

let me know how close that other spacer gets the chassis to 257. thanks

Interested ride there how wide does the TL01 LA set compare with the normal TL01 set as I think i am going to have to change to TL01 suspension as the hubs on the TB01 set are to short on there arms and have therefore left the steering geometry out and also means that they catch on the chassis with the angles.

did you mean on the M04 or M03/FF02?

i don't own a TL01 but if someone posts dimension i'll post the ones for the FF02 with the long arm set.

i'd love to get an M04, put the FF02/Tl01 long arm kit on it, deck it out with some moderate hop ups.....and then top it off with an 037 shell. i'd be afraid to drive it at maximum attack but.....i bet it would look cool. but i'll keep up on this thread for info on how well it works out.

[Wrc action 0]

thesuper - I am refering to the width of your M chassis with the TL01 LA arms on and comparing that to my chassis which is using at present the TB01 arms. The reason why is that I want to try and make the car as wide as reasonably possible in order to get the best stability and lowest centre of gravity that I can.

Onto an update so far I have sorted much of the chassis to the basic specification that I want to start testing the car on both performance and reliability, as well as a little back to back testing with the touareg to see how the two compare in performance terms.

Schlesser should be faster when its goes straight and flat but less adept on the technical sections or when the going gets soft and boggy.

to start matters of is a whole car picture from this you can see the status of my overall development the front and rear suspension are on, the chassis length is set and the steering is done on one side.

The first area that I will detail is the rear suspension. This is just a straight fwd lift from the TB-01 with the stock suspension. I am using shorter up arms taken from another kit with small threaded rods in between. Due to the upper suspension mount being for the smooth section of screw I have had to use a 3mm threaded screw and a 5mm ball stud screw on the end held by friction. This should prove ample for testing tho I hope to get longer screws as they are a little on the short side and use some threadlock to ensure that I have no embaresing collapses whilst running.

The shocks that I am using are Trf touring ones that I have spare from the tarmac spec of my TB01. I plan to get some longer bodied shocks in order to get the maximium stroke that I can with the suspension travel improved due to that. Those these will do for testing again.

The axles are presently the stock ones tho I do plan to upgrade to the wide axles and hubs in the near future to move the wheels further out, again improving the performance and lowering the COG. I have chosen to be relatively conservative on the suspension angles to start with, the ground clearance is in the same order of my other cars at about 28mm tho I think that there is a much greater scope to get perhaps 40mm tho I think there that the Centre of Gravity will be to high for fast speeding running, tho it might be a setup option as the dakar cars do change the ride heights from stage to stage espically in the dunes where they are raised to prevent bottoming out on the crests of the dunes and lowered on the more open and flat sections where high speed high grip tracks would lead to traction rolling if they suspension remained at such high levels

I have also had to fit larger dogbones than the stock MO4L ones that where really short or the Tb01 stock ones. As the diff outdrives are further in than on a TB01 car so I needed the longer dogbones of the TB02 which are 42mm in length are fit perfectly tho I had to remove the small rubber O-rings that where fitting in both the axle and the diff cups.

Working down the chassis is my next addition another spacer courtesy of Mad Ax, so many thanks to you. This has extended the chassis out to 257 dead on. tho you do have to note the orientation of the chassis in order to get it straight as you can set it up to be "bent" tho for what you would use this I dont know.

Next on the list is the front end. This has proved to be a much bigger issue with much work taking place on the steering arms and getting full steering on both top and bottom compression of the shock. In order to achieve this I am using Tb01 lower arms with the MO4 hubs and C hubs. the reason why I need the M04 hubs is that they are longer than the TB01 hubs that didnt travel back far enough and therefore caught the chassis when the steering turned and also lead to a greatly disproportiate amount of turn on each side when u turned either left of right. the inside wheel would over turn and the outside wheel would underturn. a Situation that my Touareg currently suffers with tho to a lesser degree and needs work to sort out the steering once and for all.

As you can see the from the second of the two pictures the steering link is now totally straight in line with the chassis and this is due to the MO4 hub being the correct length needed from the hub. The mount point underneath the hub also allows for the steering to operate at full effectiveness through out its range from normal ride height to make compression where should the steering be mounted upwards from the hub so the steering would bind on the opening into the chassis where the servo is located when the suspension is under full compression.

Also on my to do list was a new front shock mount, as you have seen above this came from a previous shock mount that I made to replace a plastic one that snapped on my TB01. its simple 2mm aluminium and was originally removed as it bent under impact. So with a quick bit of hammer and vice action it was all straightened back out and some simple new holes made sure that everything was ready for fitting. still needs some work and sleeves to ensure that it sits totally level as I have noticed on closer inspection that things are totally level then again I also think that the shocks needs a rebuild as theya re different lengths from side to side (marginal but enough to make me want to take a further look)

the final picture that you can see above just shows the overall front end design and its alignment. I need to work out the upper arms that where made in the same way as the rear end to get the angles sorted and there is also a fair amount of movement backwards and forwards with the MO4 C hubs inside of the TB01 hubs tho this should be sorted with a few shims or the O-rings that i removed from the cup joints and axles at the rear. I also plan to put the wide axles on the front end in time to get the full width up that like the rear is now 200 from edge of tyre to edge of tyre and the front is 190mm from rim to rim or about 195 when I fit the XC tyres.

Comments and questions as ever welcome. I am currently on the look out for a pair of XC tyres for the front end

as well as a 50mm threaded rod for the other side of the steering.

Next update should see the machine running and perhaps an early report on its capabilities.

Cheers

Ryck

[thesuper 1]

Wrc action....ok...the M03 chassis with the long arm kit comes in at 183mm with a set of +2 offset road wheels.

i think the TB01 with the same wheels and long arm kit is closer to 185mm.

this is turning into one awesome thread. you're confirming a lot of what i thought could be done with the chassis.

as for the front sus mount.....do you think it's possible to use the stock upper mounts or would the dampers lay too far down that they interfere with something?

that's neat about the 257 wheel base!

what chassis did the driveshafts come from?

i kinda thought theremight be soem issues with the steering portion. but it looks like you've got it. i'm excited to see this thing run!

i see also that you put a silver can in there....will this just be for testing and then you'll put something hotter in there? or are teh silver cans addequate?

[Wrc action 0]

thesuper - looks like I will be sticking with my present setup then as Im up past 190mm at the moment which is looking good for the 200/205mm target with the wide axles that will put it on a par with the race touareg and also by using the same axles lead to another parts sharing for spares

cheers i think that this could be another very good thread to run alongside the support truck and the Race Touareg. You cannot use the stock front mounts as the shock will sit to inclined and should u wish to put the arms anything beyond perpendicular the chassis side then the shocks will not reach due to the shape of the front end they get blocked by the mounts for the front bumper. As thus I have dug out and re-straightened a front shock mount I made for a TB01 a few year back which in theory should work well with the TB01 front lower arms that I am employing.

Yeah the wheelbase is very good, I do seem to find that tamiya's cars do seem to have this "extra" built into them as tho tamiya is like all good auto makers building in possible developments paths into a chassis so that its lifecycle can be longer and should a certain project i.e. a 2wd 257 lancia 037 be deemed viable in the market that the tooling and development costs are lower, which in effect will lower that point of product viability which must be gd for us all

the driveshafts are as mentioned from my TB02 and are in there as I now have those shiny blue ones from yourself in there instead. The steering wouldve been a problem had i stuck with the TB01 hubs which are shorter and so not in the correct alignment, so using the kits own MO4 ones solved the problem as Im now effectively just moving the setup outwards not in any other angle meaning all i need to change is the steering shafts. Tho the MO4 hubs do seem rather small and fragile I think that i will need to upgrade to some alloy ones.

The silver can is only in there as that is how the car came to me as a built shelfer with half done shell from blakeatron. So Its in there till i take it on a test run and I will think about power once I have done that. Hope to have it faster top end than the Touareg tho that shouldnt be a problem with the ratios and lighter drivetrain once i fit the hollow carbon prop shafts.

Cheers

Ryck