Another 14.4v Wild Dagger

[Mad Ax]

My Blackfoot Extreme has been one of my favourites for a long time, but limited funds made it difficult to get any more speed out of it. So imagine my surprise when a whole load of parts suddenly arrived cheaply to allow me to convert it to:

Twin 550 motors

Twin 7.2v batteries

4x4 gearboxes

Everything has arrived in the last two days. HPI GT 550 motors from Apex Models, a slightly-damaged Wild Dagger rolling chassis from Loaded, and a Hot Bodies 14.4v twin-motor ESC from bfst24.

Here is everything as it began. My Blackfoot Extreme up top, the Wild Dagger beneath, and the motors and speedo at the bottom.

And this is the fuel I consumed to help me through the process:

Here is the Blackfoot chassis, ready for its dummy front gearbox to be removed and the proper one slotted in place

And, finally, the completed conversion - very untidy, as I still need to fabricate a proper option for mounting the second battery until I can afford a proper twin battery chassis.

I slapped on the El Camino shell and some Wild Dagger wheels and took it straight out for a blast. It was dark, so it was only a quick test-run - but boy does it fly!

Handling is awful, as the off-centre battery badly affects the grip and makes it swerve under acceleration and braking. The extra weight is also too much for the springs, which will need tuning at the next proper run.

In short - I can't wait to get the battery properly mounted and have a proper play in the sunlight... Wow!!

[Lemming]

Awesome!

Having driven Hillman666's 14.4v Dagger at Kidder last year, I can safely say that these things fly!

He had the twin battery carbon chassis under it, so stability wasn't an issue, but it was definitely faster than my Novak based Carbon Jugg

Keep at it!

Steve

[bfst24]

hi mate

looks good.

does it pull wheely's?

cant wait to get mine up and running.just need to sort a few other projects.

also have you had any troubles with the blackfoot wheels?ive bought some hpi ones and the offset is wrong and they rub.

[Mad Ax]

does it pull wheely's?

also have you had any troubles with the blackfoot wheels?ive bought some hpi ones and the offset is wrong and they rub.

It doesn't wheely from a standstill because there is too much weight up-front, also the soft springs absorb a lot of the punch from the launch, however I did notice it lifted the front a little when reversing and slamming forwards. I didn't want to try this too hard as the gearbox was never designed for this much torque, and I want this to be a reliable as well as fast runner!

I also have HPI wheels - the wheels don't rub but the Ho Bao Monster tyres do. I have invested in some Junfac ally axle wideners (see link in my other thread about axle wideners). I figure these will put extra strain on the knuckles, so I have also ordered all new ally knuckles too. I won't do any more with the car until these arrive as I really want to test out the Ho Baos, even tho I think they're a little too soft for fast racing - I expect five minutes on a hard surface will rip them to shreds.

Hoping to sell some gubbins over the next week which might raise enough cash for an alloy or carbon chassis. Not really sure which one to go for... I very much like the Machette from Demonic Designs.

[Rabiedmushroom]

Nice one Ax. How many projects have you got on at the moment?!

I'm bored with my Dagger I reckon its drearily slow even though its got 2xSportTuned motors, and my lovely Landrover shell looks great but it doesn't land on its feet like the original body. It isn't fun to drive anymore. I think I need (20?) pinions to make it goes faster and putty in the diffs. Does anyone know where I can get a NIB Wild Dagger bodyshell & decals? None currently on Fleabay.

Otherwise I'll never be able to keep up with Mad Ax's Extemely-Extreme next time we go play!

[Mad Ax]

Nice one Ax. How many projects have you got on at the moment?!

I'm actually cutting down - I've sold my Bear Hawk resto, I'm selling my RC10 project on ebay next week, I'll be breaking up and selling the Grasshopper NIB that I bought and partially-chopped for another abandoned project, because I just have far too much on right now. Other projects (like the 4-Linked Grasshopper) are being retired to the shelf because, cool tho it was from an engineering POV, its performance doesn't match its looks.

Current projects are:

14.4v Wild Blackfoot - purchase twin-battery chassis when funds allow

Mad Max Truck - sturdify body posts with flexicard and paint interior

TLT Scaler - mount gearbox, mount body, purchase clocks, motor and propshafts, decide on paint scheme (another Mad Max scaler, or a very shiny street truck)

King Blackfoot shelfer - paint body when weather allows

Clod PVCane Crawler - still in the box, leaving it until all other projects are finished

TT01 "Steele Walker's Silvia" Streetrace Car - build as per box, fit custom decals and put on shelf

Box Deluxe - remake shortened chassis, check and replace gears if necessary, paint and mount body, investigate possible 4" shock options

I'm bored with my Dagger I reckon its drearily slow even though its got 2xSportTuned motors, and my lovely Landrover shell looks great but it doesn't land on its feet like the original body. It isn't fun to drive anymore. I think I need (20?) pinions to make it goes faster and putty in the diffs.

You definately need 20T pinions on a Dagger. Apex Models have 20T .6 pinions in stock but they're hard to find - look under Manufactureres, then RW. About 6.50 each so not cheap

Does anyone know where I can get a NIB Wild Dagger bodyshell & decals? None currently on Fleabay.

There's a dagger shell sat spare in my living room. I was going to use it on my Schumacher, but might be tempted to pass it on to a friendly TCer - it's not in perfect condition but it's painted box-art, with decals, I don't think it's split or cracked anywhere. Fine for a runner. If you want it we can meet up one weekend for another mini-bash

[Mountain]

Out of interest does anybody know what the specs (RPM/Torque) for the HPI 550 motors are.

I have two which could either go in a Wild Dagger or TXT-1 in which case I will have two BZ motors to donate to the Wild Dagger. Assuming I set the timing up correctly on the BZ then it seems I can either run these at 7.2V or 14.4V. Does anybody know what these would spin at 14.4V and would it be better then the 550's. I didn't think the stock 550 were that much quicker than stock 540 but can't find any figures so wonder if anybody has done any A-B comparisons.

Just trying to work out what would give the fastest performance (assuming same pinion) as well as reasonable battery life.

[Lemming]

Out of interest does anybody know what the specs (RPM/Torque) for the HPI 550 motors are.

I have two which could either go in a Wild Dagger or TXT-1 in which case I will have two BZ motors to donate to the Wild Dagger. Assuming I set the timing up correctly on the BZ then it seems I can either run these at 7.2V or 14.4V. Does anybody know what these would spin at 14.4V and would it be better then the 550's. I didn't think the stock 550 were that much quicker than stock 540 but can't find any figures so wonder if anybody has done any A-B comparisons.

Just trying to work out what would give the fastest performance (assuming same pinion) as well as reasonable battery life.

First things first... DON'T rune the BZ motors on 14.4v as it will kill the brushes and probably the comm in a run or two. They are only rated for 7.2v and have about 25,000+ rpm

Tamiya BZ are 7.2v, approx 26,500rpm

The HPI 550's (Johnson st550) are 14.4v - 16.8v, approx 33,500rpm

The Traxxas Titan 550's are 14.4v - 16.8v, approx 31,500rpm

Not sure on power outputs, sorry.

Steve

[Mountain]

First things first... DON'T rune the BZ motors on 14.4v as it will kill the brushes and probably the comm in a run or two. They are only rated for 7.2v and have about 25,000+ rpm

Tamiya BZ are 7.2v, approx 26,500rpm

The HPI 550's (Johnson st550) are 14.4v - 16.8v, approx 33,500rpm

The Traxxas Titan 550's are 14.4v - 16.8v, approx 31,500rpm

Not sure on power outputs, sorry.

Steve

Thanks Steve

Interesting point about the BZ at 14.4V I would have thought the same but the guy I bought it from has being running them at 14.4V for a while and no issues which I find strange. Will double check with him though.

The 550s are faster than I thought they would be. Out of interest where did you find the specs, I googled for ages.

Also Traxxas do a 12T 550 motor although they don't recommend it for dual motor setups. Anybody know how fast this is, assume its going to be faster than stock. Anybody know why its not recommended for dual setups. Presumably if your ESC can handle two it should be ok.

I also have a pair of Reedy Badd Maxx motors but not sure of specs they seem to be Modified 550's but they eat brushes for breakfast under load.

[Lemming]

Thanks Steve

Interesting point about the BZ at 14.4V I would have thought the same but the guy I bought it from has being running them at 14.4V for a while and no issues which I find strange. Will double check with him though.

The 550s are faster than I thought they would be. Out of interest where did you find the specs, I googled for ages.

Also Traxxas do a 12T 550 motor although they don't recommend it for dual motor setups. Anybody know how fast this is, assume its going to be faster than stock. Anybody know why its not recommended for dual setups. Presumably if your ESC can handle two it should be ok.

I also have a pair of Reedy Badd Maxx motors but not sure of specs they seem to be Modified 550's but they eat brushes for breakfast under load.

From experience, any motor run at 14.4v which isn't designed for it will definitely eat brushes and ruin comms. Thing is, the motor performance will drop so fast that he might not have noticed it, and possibly thinks that the curent speed is normal. Having run a 12t and silver can motors on 14.4v I have seen the damage caused by 14.4v, especially on my 12t motor which lost almost 50% of it's pace after 2 runs on 14.4v. I only know this as I then tried it back in the car on 7.2v and it registered half the pace on the Speed Meter.

Motor Info is something I grabbed ages ago from the web whilst looking for specs on the Traxxas motors. From memory it was something to do with the E-Savage forum and Torque (although I don'e seem to have any power ratings other than in Watts).

The 12t 550 is only rated to 7.2v, hence they list it as not suitable for twin motor applications (by which they mean their twin motor beasts like E-Maxx) to avoid people putting 14.4v through it.

For a laugh, try silver cans at 14.4v... A normal RS540SH motor runs at 15,000rpm or so and is cheap to replace. On 14.4v it is quite something! Maybe 30,000rpm? Well worth a try as my 14.4v Thundershot was stupidly fast.

Just a thought though, for pure speed I would consider looking at brushless (older cheap sets). If you check out my videos you will find a Brushless Top Force and a Brushless Juggernaut. Both are running Novak SS5500 setups, 40,000+ rpm and a lot more torque than you might imagine! Put it this way, my Jugg was almost as fast as a 14.4v Wild Dagger at Kidderminster last year, and that is impressive considering how much heavier it is!

Cheers

Steve

[Mountain]

For a laugh, try silver cans at 14.4v... A normal RS540SH motor runs at 15,000rpm or so and is cheap to replace. On 14.4v it is quite something! Maybe 30,000rpm? Well worth a try as my 14.4v Thundershot was stupidly fast.

Just a thought though, for pure speed I would consider looking at brushless (older cheap sets). If you check out my videos you will find a Brushless Top Force and a Brushless Juggernaut. Both are running Novak SS5500 setups, 40,000+ rpm and a lot more torque than you might imagine! Put it this way, my Jugg was almost as fast as a 14.4v Wild Dagger at Kidderminster last year, and that is impressive considering how much heavier it is!

Yes I tried 14.4V and even 16.8V in my stock clod (apart from steering) and boy was that quick (for a clod anyway). I had the opposite problem the motors appear to work, you can't see the inner bits so I don't know how bad it really was but it used to kill the batteries. At least one cell would pop and ruin the battery. After 3 pairs of batteries I gave up and stuck the Reedy Badd Maxx in. Which apart from eating brushes which is one of their faults they seem fine.

Emailed the previous owner of the TXT-1 to see he noticed. Not having had a TXT-1 normal or otherwise I don't know how fast it should be. Seems a lot quicker than a stock clod.

I would do brushless but can you do that on a Wild Dagger with having to have one motor reversed I didn't think it was that easy to set up.

Do you have the watts for the motors as that should then be able to equate the current and run times etc.

[Lemming]

Yes I tried 14.4V and even 16.8V in my stock clod (apart from steering) and boy was that quick (for a clod anyway). I had the opposite problem the motors appear to work, you can't see the inner bits so I don't know how bad it really was but it used to kill the batteries. At least one cell would pop and ruin the battery. After 3 pairs of batteries I gave up and stuck the Reedy Badd Maxx in. Which apart from eating brushes which is one of their faults they seem fine.

Emailed the previous owner of the TXT-1 to see he noticed. Not having had a TXT-1 normal or otherwise I don't know how fast it should be. Seems a lot quicker than a stock clod.

I would do brushless but can you do that on a Wild Dagger with having to have one motor reversed I didn't think it was that easy to set up.

Do you have the watts for the motors as that should then be able to equate the current and run times etc.

Ouch on the batteries!!!

Got this info in total on the motors, wish I could find a link, still looking:

EDIT: Darn forum keeps removing multiple spaces!

Motor Voltage Power RPM Eff

Johnson st550 (HPI) 14.4-16.8 149W 33700 70%

Kyosho Magnetic Mayhem 12-14.4 181W 32100 70%

Traxxas Titan 550 14.4-16.8 129W 31200 70%

I know the Wild Dagger would only end up being 2wd, but reckon it would go like stink with the Novak setup. Really 4wd is better though so ignore my suggestion

Steve

[Mountain]

Ouch on the batteries!!!

Got this info in total on the motors, wish I could find a link, still looking:

EDIT: Darn forum keeps removing multiple spaces!

Motor Voltage Power RPM Eff

Johnson st550 (HPI) 14.4-16.8 149W 33700 70%

Kyosho Magnetic Mayhem 12-14.4 181W 32100 70%

Traxxas Titan 550 14.4-16.8 129W 31200 70%

I know the Wild Dagger would only end up being 2wd, but reckon it would go like stink with the Novak setup. Really 4wd is better though so ignore my suggestion

Steve

Yep the batteries where painful. I think it didn't help that I was putting the motors under excess load like through wet puddles with grass getting stuck and then the final set in the snow. Which set one battery on fire and destroyed the EVX (althought that would was probably water ingress). Good thing about snow is that it can be used to put out burning batteries.

Thanks for those figures look am I right in thinking with 4500mAh batteries I would be getting run times of 12 mins full throttle. Seems a bit low (is my maths wrong). What do other people get?

[Lemming]

Yep the batteries where painful. I think it didn't help that I was putting the motors under excess load like through wet puddles with grass getting stuck and then the final set in the snow. Which set one battery on fire and destroyed the EVX (althought that would was probably water ingress). Good thing about snow is that it can be used to put out burning batteries.

Thanks for those figures look am I right in thinking with 4500mAh batteries I would be getting run times of 12 mins full throttle. Seems a bit low (is my maths wrong). What do other people get?

Nasty! Might explain why so many new E-Maxx owners are frying batteries as the new one is "waterproof" and everyone seems to be trying to test it!

If it helps, my 16.8v one is running twin Traxxas Titans and 4400mah Vapextech batteries (which are proving to be excellent).

I get about 20 mins with mostly full throttle (other than turning) over all terrain (grass, wet sand, water etc).

I guess the figures are based on running in an E-Savage, so maybe the weight makes a difference (not sure on the whole maths side of it). If I remember correctly, these figures also originally had details of pinion uses and the figures were also based on a single motor. Not sure what difference that makes.

I also remember something about maximum efficiency being used for calculating the power outputs. Again, I'm going from a rusty memory but maybe that would help as most of these have max efficiency at 70%... Again, maths on this side of things isn't my strong point

Still trying to find the page, and will add it here if I find it. Off to trawl the E_Savage forums again

Steve

EDIT: Look what I found here! Looks to have the same figures I have, so guessing it's the same information, but not got time to look as the little monster hath awakened! Aka my baby boy

EDIT 2: Also found this for explaining how they calculated power at max efficiency rather than at max rpm

[Mountain]

Nasty! Might explain why so many new E-Maxx owners are frying batteries as the new one is "waterproof" and everyone seems to be trying to test it!

If it helps, my 16.8v one is running twin Traxxas Titans and 4400mah Vapextech batteries (which are proving to be excellent).

I get about 20 mins with mostly full throttle (other than turning) over all terrain (grass, wet sand, water etc).

I guess the figures are based on running in an E-Savage, so maybe the weight makes a difference (not sure on the whole maths side of it). If I remember correctly, these figures also originally had details of pinion uses and the figures were also based on a single motor. Not sure what difference that makes.

I also remember something about maximum efficiency being used for calculating the power outputs. Again, I'm going from a rusty memory but maybe that would help as most of these have max efficiency at 70%... Again, maths on this side of things isn't my strong point

Still trying to find the page, and will add it here if I find it. Off to trawl the E_Savage forums again

Steve

EDIT: Look what I found here! Looks to have the same figures I have, so guessing it's the same information, but not got time to look as the little monster hath awakened! Aka my baby boy

EDIT 2: Also found this for explaining how they calculated power at max efficiency rather than at max rpm

Thanks that's great just got to find time to fit the project in round the kids

[deltron]

here's my brushless tnx