Is The Sand Viper The Right Car For Me?

[reenmachine]

OK, so I have been thoroughly enjoying bashing my re-re Frog in all sorts of conditions. A couple of days ago I went to a track where some guys were running modern 2WD buggies (mostly RC10s) and the difference in suspension performance was stunning.

Those things were smooth as silk down the rough straight where I was boing-ing along and they'd hug the rough corners like they were on carpet where I would roll over.

I know, big surprise that 25 years of improvements yields night-and-day results!

Anyway, I love my Frog and will continue to enjoy it heartily, but I want to run a more modern rig from time to time as well. I like 2WD and I'd like a Tamiya car. I also don't want to spend RC-10 money. Is the Sand Viper the way to go? Is it Tamiya's best 2WD platform? What are my alternatives?

[taliesin]

the sand viper is a very stable and fun to drive buggy. its tough as nails and difficult to damage. it under-steers like crazy, but you can improve that by running spikey tires up front. that is pretty normal for a 2wd buggy i think.

there are very few hop-ups available, but it doesn't really need much. oil shocks and ball bearings come standard. nice upgrades include: servo saver, turnbuckles and trf aluminum shocks from the df-03. the car tends to bottom out a bit and the df-03 shocks help cure that. sport tuned motors are also a nice upgrade. if you want, all those options are available in the dt-02ms version of the sand viper, but you don't absolutely need them.

i have destroyed a few sets of tires, scratched the chassis up pretty well and thoroughly enjoyed the buggy. nothing has broke so far.

the dt-02 is somewhat limited on gearing options and you can only run 2 pinion sizes due to the way the motor mounts, so you'll need to be careful if you intend to stick some crazy fast low turn motor in it, but i think you would be very pleased by the performance of a sport-tuned motor and stock pinion gear.

if you like 2wd buggies, this is a very good choice for not much money. i don't know how it would rate as a race or competition buggy, but i suspect it would get clobbered by the more advanced race buggies, but then, they cost way more money. as a basher, this buggy is 1st rate fun.

hope that helps.

[reenmachine]

the sand viper is a very stable and fun to drive buggy. its tough as nails and difficult to damage. it under-steers like crazy, but you can improve that by running spikey tires up front. that is pretty normal for a 2wd buggy i think.

It can't understeer as much as my Frog. On semi-loose surfaces I have to tap the brakes at turn-in to induce oversteer just to get it to rotate!

there are very few hop-ups available, but it doesn't really need much. oil shocks and ball bearings come standard. nice upgrades include: servo saver, turnbuckles and trf aluminum shocks from the df-03. the car tends to bottom out a bit and the df-03 shocks help cure that. sport tuned motors are also a nice upgrade. if you want, all those options are available in the dt-02ms version of the sand viper, but you don't absolutely need them.

What is the dt-02ms version? Link? Part number?

the dt-02 is somewhat limited on gearing options and you can only run 2 pinion sizes due to the way the motor mounts, so you'll need to be careful if you intend to stick some crazy fast low turn motor in it, but i think you would be very pleased by the performance of a sport-tuned motor and stock pinion gear.

I agree. I'm not looking to race, and Sport Tuned is the way I would go.

if you like 2wd buggies, this is a very good choice for not much money. i don't know how it would rate as a race or competition buggy, but i suspect it would get clobbered by the more advanced race buggies, but then, they cost way more money. as a basher, this buggy is 1st rate fun.

hope that helps.

That's exactly the kind of input I was looking for. Thanks!

[reenmachine]

Ahhhh, I found the DT-02 MS on Tamiya's website. Very nice, but pricey! I think I'd start with the Sand Viper, which I can get for $92, and do the upgrades over time as I felt I needed them.

EDIT: OK, $169 from Tower isn't nearly as bad as the $255 MSRP. Add in another ~$20 for a Sport Tuned to bring us to $190...not soooo bad I guess...I wish you hadn't brought that one up as I'm sure I'd be very happy with the Sand Viper!

[DCLXVI]

the dt-02 is somewhat limited on gearing options and you can only run 2 pinion sizes due to the way the motor mounts, so you'll need to be careful if you intend to stick some crazy fast low turn motor in it, but i think you would be very pleased by the performance of a sport-tuned motor and stock pinion gear.

Acually, if you drill out the mounting holes by 1mm and then use a longer screw and a washer you can have a +/- 1 tooth on the pinion, I run mine like this with a BL system so it holds up really good...

(IIRC, I'm running a 18T pinion)

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.a...017&id=3327 (last pic)

[taliesin]

since the standard kit has ball bearings and oil shocks you would be perfectly fine just adding a servo saver and a sport tuned motor to the kit and saving some money.

unless you are really planning on spending all of that money later on anyway. i always tell myself that i won't do that and end up making mr. tamiya a very happy man by paying more in the long run by not buying the full option kit up front.

[reenmachine]

OK, now I'm sold on the DT-02 MS. The included hop-ups seem like a good deal vs. doing them separately.

I'm putting my NIB 5845 original-release Hornet up on eBay this Sunday to free up some capital

I should be able to turn it into a DT-02 MS, Sport Tuned, and tires. I have my fingers crossed!

[taliesin]

good luck! welcome to the dt-02 crowd. it seems like these are really under appreciated cars, but those of us who own one enjoy them greatly.

[reenmachine]

it seems like these are really under appreciated cars

Why do you think this is? They're Tamiya's top 2WD platform, no? Is it that everyone's into 4WD?

[taliesin]

i think maybe its the 4wd craze, but i'm not sure.

that, and the hobby stores that flog losi and associated 2wd buggies like there's no tomorrow. ask for a tamiya and they look at you like you grew antlers.

[reenmachine]

that, and the hobby stores that flog losi and associated 2wd buggies like there's no tomorrow. ask for a tamiya and they look at you like you grew antlers.

I'm not usually one for brand loyalty, but I developed a bond with Tamiya as a kid and I'm not really even considering other brands. It's weird, but I feel like Tamiya gave me so much back then and really put me on the path to the life I live now so I gladly give them my business now that I can actually afford a thing or two!

[3doorpete]

I actually found my DT02 Desert Gator to be pretty poor and sold it. I like my 2WD Tamiya's, but found the Gator to be lacking in ground clearance and spec. It's cheap but feels it and does not have the character of the vintage 2WD tamiya buggies to make up for the performance short falls. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but to me it's just a generic shaped underperforming cheap 2WD buggy IMHO. Sorry to those who own and enjoy them, but I'd encourage them to try out a quality 2wd buggy from any manufacturer or even an Astute or Dyna Storm from Tamiya themselves to see the difference.

On the plus side, they come with full bearings and oil shocks.

Rumour has it that Tamiya will be releasing a full on 2WD racer this year, which I will go for (similar to the Dyna Storm), with a proper spec.

I wouldn't expect to get near RC10's on a bumpy track with any standard DT02.

[Mad Ax]

I can't rate the DT02 since I don't have one, it's been on my list for ages but I have enough runners to keep me occupied for a long time!

Anyway, in the UK at least there are NIB RTR Associated RC10B4s complete with radio and tuned motors etc. for not much more than it would cost to buy a stock DT02 and kit it out with radio. I love Tamiya and am loyal to the brand, but if I was to get a 2wd buggy I think I'd go with the Associated - they don't look too dissimilar, but everywhere I've read says the Associated is streets ahead in terms of handling.

Just my two pennorth I'm sure the DT02MS will make a great fun basher but I doubt it'll run with the RC10s.

[bigoggy]

i have a sandviper. i find it reliable and tough. mine has an 18 turn in it and has a good turn of speed. it can bottom out but i just built the shocks with the single hole pistons and uprated springs. i think its a great car for bashing and i am considering racing it. i am now thinking about trying the spikey front tyres to cure some of the under steer.

[Tamiya_addict]

I have just added my DT-02 MS to my traderoom. I have always pined for a good 2WD buggy from Tamiya, from around 1991 when the Astute surfaced. So I leaped at the DT-02 MS. Built, I ran it a couple of times up my driveway on asphalt. It is quiet and quick with a BZ motor. But on power off, it oversteers unpredictably. The body roll in cornering is terrible. It needs sway bars. My 4WD touring cars are heaps more predictable, and although I was always a 2WD purist, I now find myself leaning toward 4WD buggies. The efficiency of the belt drive 4WDs has improved dramatically, such as the DB01 chassis.

A significant issue with the DT-02 chassis is its lack of slipper clutch. With a low turn racing motor and tyres glued, the car will flip.

I guess my conclusion is that a sand viper pepped up = DT-02 MS. For not much more an Asian pre-built RC10B4 will be a better buy longer term. It can be hopped up to full race spec. If you are keen at all to race, most local clubs run RC10B4s or Losi's, and at the end of the day, these don't cost all that much more than a Tamiya.

[Singapore_959]

My input on this:

Ground clearance is not such a big deal any more - all the modern 2wd cars, are designed to bottom out - that is why they are all plastic mix composite tubs. It absorbs the shock. Otherwise they would all be CF.

A well driven car will still be beat a less well driven better car.

Slipperclutch - adapt driving style. Yes they are nice to have but not essential.

Body roll, over/understeer has as much to do with set up and driving style as it has to with the basic design of a car.

Based on all the above, while I personally choose the DS everytime over any other car (blind loyalty/enthusiasm), the only thing I can really complain about on the Dt-02 is the sheer bulk and weight of the rear end/g.box/motor housing.

Otherwise it is a fine basher and basic racer.

Choose Tamiya! Plus, as I recently found out, all your tools will fit. I bought a asso B3 to compare and understand the differences with the DS and all the screws and nuts are different sizes, which is a pain. Even bearings are not metric so wheels can't even be swapped.

[Mad Ax]

Choose Tamiya! Plus, as I recently found out, all your tools will fit. I bought a asso B3 to compare and understand the differences with the DS and all the screws and nuts are different sizes, which is a pain. Even bearings are not metric so wheels can't even be swapped.

This is true - especially if you're in Europe and all your tools are metric, you'll have fun trying to play with an Associated without buying all new hex wrenches. I'm not sure if the modern euro-market Associateds are different but my vintage gold-tub is certainly this way.

However, with some careful swapping of parts, you can get Tamiya wheels onto an Associated. I put Hornet front uprights onto my RC10 goldie (needs a little shim/washer in the spindle but otherwise is a straight swap) and it looks like Frog or Brat axles will go in the rear. However I didn't get as far as trying this.

[reenmachine]

hmmmm....I'm going to start a new thread since the topic has drifted quite a bit. A bit more research has shown me that the DT-02 MS and RC10B4 Team Edition are very similarly priced and I'm getting the feeling that the RC10 would trounce the DT-02 MS.

EDIT: http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42051

[reenmachine]

...aaaaaaaaand I ordered a Sand Viper today!

[reenmachine]

And here it is. I was absolutely blown away by how things have changed over the last 25 years. The suspension is so silky smooth compared to the Frog with 90% less slop and play in the moving parts. I just finished it last night, and new radio gear is arriving today. It'll be out in the dirt tonight!

I didn't like the flashy box-art graphics so I kept things clean and simple. I still wanted to fly the Tamiya flag though to represent! I also had to add a little tribute to the Frog that got me back into the hobby.

[Danbox]

I had one of these for a little while, but I sold it. I liked the simplicity and the speed was good, but since I'm not one for throttle control it fish-tailed a lot.

The ground clearance was a little low, but overall I kind of miss my Sand Viper.

[reenmachine]

After my first trip to the track with the DT-02 I am rather underwhelmed. Maybe I got a dud silver can, but the car is painfully slow -- much slower in a straight line than my Frog. I can't make the big double at all that the Frog sailed over. My lap times are probably faster overall since I can take rough corners without rolling over, but the speed and acceleration just aren't there. The suspension is also way too soft and it bottoms out like mad. After 1 battery pack the belly shows significant wear.

I think I'll start by swapping motors with the Frog and looking at gear ratios to see what's up. I'm also going to rebuild the shocks with the single-hole pistons and put all the spring spacers I can find on there to stiffen it up. Any other suggestions?

[pastimesteve]

Reen -- I had a similar experience on my first test. Mine was slow as well with the stock motor. People like to complain about the Hotshot's suspension (which I don't think is that bad on the re-re), but the Viper is a new design that shouldn't do this. I'm also not happy about the turning radius on mine. How is the turning radius on your Viper?

Thanks,

Steve

[reenmachine]

Reen -- I had a similar experience on my first test. People like to complain about the Hotshot's suspension (which I don't think is that bad on the re-re), but this is a new design that shouldn't do this. I'm also not happy about the turning radius on mine. How is the turning radius on your Viper?

Thanks,

Steve

Not great either, but the least of my problems so I didn't mention it. It seems to be a common problem as well but everyone says that pin spike front tires help a lot. That would mean that it's an understeering issue rather than the wheels just not turning far enough. A slow-speed circle on pavement (no slipping) should answer that question. I'm going to do just that with my Sand Viper and my Frog and compare the circle's radius.

[taliesin]

i had all the same complaints with my viper at first. i got a sport tuned motor, spikey front tires and the spring hop-up package and now it rocks. i use heavier oil and 2 spacers on the shocks and that helps the bottoming out issue. the bottom is scratched like crazy, but it shows no sign of weakness, and i think these modern buggies can take it, so i just ignore it. i hope you come to like yours as much as i do, but it takes a bit of getting used to. it isn't crazy fast, but it is tough and fun to drive now. jumps really well too! keep us posted?