New Vintage Races...

[Hibernaculum]

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[Corpse Thrower]

I'm no racer, just a nobody backyard basher So that's an important disclaimer.

However, I've seen a fair bit of talk lately about various vintage race meets (proper organised racing) and so on, being held around the world. Which sounds great. Except that, well to me "vintage" = vintage. I would go so far as to say, running the cars pretty much close to stock is part of that (no hop ups) in order to truly get that real vintage feel, and enjoy/appreciate the limits in speed and handling of vintage cars. But if that's impractical, then vintage hopups would be ok, but perhaps stuff like brushless motors should not be allowed? e.g. here - even the "classic" class of this race allows brushless?

I don't know much about the above, other than to stumble across it on Google. I must be totally naive about racing - I just think vintage racing sounds like a great idea, but the point (to me, as a spectator and huge fan of vintage buggies) is lost if the cars aren't run as they would have been run back in the day. I wouldn't mind catching a race between vintage buggies. But I wouldn't bother going if I knew all the cars were hopped up to something they never were. Be a bit like going to Goodwood to watch classic F1 cars from the 50s or 60s, but with their classic engines upgraded to current F1 engines.

I could continue with a rant here about how "speed isn't everything!!", and how a race between half a dozen stock Grasshoppers can be the best fun ever, and how all this talk of brushless bores me to death, but...I won't It just feels as though the sport/culture of R/C racing, which was largely responsible for the original stripping-away of all realism from R/C off road buggies in the quest for speed in the late 80s, still hasn't found peace with the scale realism aspects that first made off road R/C buggies popular between 1975 and 1985, or why many of them are worth $thousands now on the collectors market in stock form. Even when it comes to organising non-profit, no-pressure vintage racing for fun.

Ah well. I'm waaay too old, boring and old-school (he says as he sits here, fitting an MSC to a Scorcher )

Thoughts?

cheers,

H.

Thoughts you ask? No need to add anything mate, its been said!

Totally agree, although I haven't given the subject a lot of consideration, other than pondering my reply after reading your post!

[B.M.T.]

MY thoughts on vintage rules, is that

Pick a cut off date, OR categories by year:

Class 1 : - 1983

Class 2 : 1983 - 1990

So that SRB's don't have to race JR-X2's and '89 Worlds Cars.

Box stock only has credence for re re's where you can get OEM parts for them, like Frog and Grasshopper.

As far as modifications go, I think if it was brought out for the model, during it's time, it's allowable. Sort of "as they were raced in the day" theme.

Again, for motors - If it was available within the models production run, it's legal, OR across the board, silvercan RS 540's.

[markbt73]

I think a "spec" motor, either a 540 or a handout 27 turn stock, is more fair (and more interesting) than brushless. Most brushless setups are overpowered even in a car that can handle it; why get a motor that you have to tone down and run at half-potential just to be able to control it? The old adage applies to RC as much as it does to full-size cars: it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow. (And with that in mind, I installed a 17 turn mod in my Grasshopper, ran it once, and went back to the 380. Much better that way.)

But if people insist on going overboard with horsepower, it would be interesting to see an "endurance" class: Run the vintage cars with really hot brushless motors and high-capacity batteries. Keep going, as ill-handling cars crash at high speed and 25-year-old gearboxes detonate from the stress. Last car running wins.

[terry.sc]

Once again we have that good old myth that "brushless=insane speed"

In the example above the 17.5T brushless is no faster than a 27 turn stock motor, the spec of the brushless motor has deliberately been designed that way so it can compete in stock class racing. Running a vintage car with a 17.5T brushless motor will actually be slower than the motors we used to race with back then.

The point of the brushless is that they require virtually no maintenance, which is why they are taking over in racing and nothing to do with extra speed. No more motor rebuilds and brush replacement to keep the performance up, more consistent than 27 turn stock, and especially more consistent than the good old 540 which vary greatly between two motors - if you ran 540s back then you would buy them by the tray full and test them to find the fastest one or two, there really was/is that much difference. If everyone runs brushless at least you know no one has a tweaked 'special' motor, it was common practice BITD for the top drivers to be provided with specially selected and tuned motors due to the wider production tolerances back then. If we are discussing 'back then' if racing in stock class you would buy a new motor for every major meeting as the sealed can meant there was nothing you could do to them to keep them in good condition - or usually you would buy 2 or 3 to see which one was the fastest and just use the others for practice/club racing.

Race meetings using handout motors back then were a real lottery, the best drivers in the world had no chance of competing if they didn't get a good motor in the draw - and then you would start on skimming, new springs, new brushes, breaking in the bushings, etc. to try and get you handout to be as fast as everyone else's tweaked motor.

If we are considering using the equipment we used back then 27T stock motors were running 34 degrees advance to really make them scream, today motors are limited to 24 degrees advance timing so again the stock class motors were faster back then compared with the ones we use today, but they really would be finished with after one or two race meetings at most and usually given to the kids at the local track if they still had some life left, or quite often just binned.

There's also a conflict in your choice of running buggies box stock or as they would have been run, once you got past a few lads running at a local club there certainly wasn't anything 'box stock' about any racing buggy in the early days as they wouldn't last the length of a 5 minute race unless you did some work to them. For example I raced a Scorcher BITD and it had no radio box, a Nodis differential, Mardave Apache complete front end, torsion bars replaced with coilovers, Mardave tyres, Demon ESC(I've used ESCs since 1982!) and a TMS Hawk lexan body. Almost all of these parts weren't made for the SRBs yet were necessary to get the best performance out of what little remained of the SRB chassis. The appeal to me back then was the fact that you had to start modifying your own cars to try and get the most speed out of it, rather than just buying something competitive like today.

Again by the time I'd moved on to a Frog again it had TMS alloy front arms and servo saver, home made trailing links on the front end, TMS bumper, Demon ESC, 21 turn motor, CRP rear arm supports, Mardave Apache springs all round, CRP dampers, STP plastic driveshafts and lots of other parts fettled in some way to cut down the weight. Once again all this work wasn't unusual for any serious racer at the time. As I used 21 and 23 turn motors I ran back then if I still had it and raced it in a vintage meeting today it would again be slower than when I raced it back then.

So saying you would like to see them run as they were back then is really in conflict with what you would like to see.

To use your classic F1 analogy, modern vintage buggy racing it's like taking the old f1 cars from the 50s and 60s, converting them back to the original form without all the hacking and modifying that went on between races, and fitting them all with a slightly slower engine that has the same horsepower between them all so the car that had the more powerful engine back then no longer has that advantage over the rest.

[WillyChang]

the only time i've ever seen a race featuring box stock RCs... is on Punky Brewster!

As mentioned, brushless by itself doesn't cure everything. On a long enduro they'll still cook too, might as well use a 540.

same issue with:-

- batts... high capacity modern cells? LiPo?

(heck we did a Hornet Cup series a few yrs back which limited racers to 2000mAh cells... which could no longer be bought new then. So i had to go digging in racers' old castoffs to try and find some decent cells etc etc)

- tyres... modern rubber? or kit tyres?

(Hornet Cup allowed freedom of wheels/rubber... jeez, its pretty hard finding glovesoft minipins in 2", i drove like 250km to a countrytown LHS to grab some... but it sure made the Hornet much more driveable)

- radiogear... oldskool Acoms Techniplus? or Spektrum DSM?

(ok no huge advantage either way... not until there's a GPS-autopilot to be invented)

- re-re's even allowed?

(Hornet Cup was pre re-re... everyone was running SuperHornet, i decided to run a olde Hornet... with Grasshopper rear hingeing!)

its a hard Q... put too many limitations and racers won't bother entering

Has parallels with Classic motor racing... vintage chassis but they'd use the latest technology & metallurgy to build their engines etc.

You'd race on modern rubber and ok use re-production parts to replace originals. Cars had to meet current safety rules.

The only way is a "spec" class race where everybody is using the same car.

[Hibernaculum]

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[Lemming]

Sorry, I have to join in... (as usual, these are my opinions only, and not meant to upset anyone...)

I think I said "As they would have been run" could include whatever hopups were around at the time, for practicality.

You actually said: "I would go so far as to say, running the cars pretty much close to stock is part of that (no hop ups) in order to truly get that real vintage feel, and enjoy/appreciate the limits in speed and handling of vintage cars. But if that's impractical, then vintage hopups would be ok, but perhaps stuff like brushless motors should not be allowed?"

Basically you want, hop-ups where box stock is impratical. Box stock is not really ever impratical (as stock parts will always be easier to come by and cheaper) but is simply not accurate for racing in the day. Most racers would go hopped up back then. My Avante is from an ex-racer (I had 4 off him in total) and came fitted with nearly all the imaginable hop-ups. That is how he raced it, and not stock.

I understand the sentiment about motors completely, hence my Avante is still run using the Technigold motor rather than a modern motor. On the down side, who can get hold of / maintain motors like these for regular running. This is why my Top Force is brushless. Not massively quick, but less maintenance for regular running than fitting another Technigold.

Although you're right. My personal preference would be to watch a race between box-stock cars, because I just reckon that would be the most fun.

Would definitely give some superbly close races and is the reason I love Kidderminster meets! This is also why I haven't bothered with the "Tamiya Cup" races organised by a TC member later this year near Minehead (I think that's where it is being held). The rules for 4wd and 2wd buggy are anything goes. Unless you have big money to throw around it simply isn't going to be a close event, therefore removes much of the fun and hope.

Preferences aside though, your line about "once you got past a few lads running at a local club there certainly wasn't anything 'box stock'" makes club level racing sound like nothing much, whereas it's actually a lot closer to how I would imagine a vintage race to be - a very club like atmosphere. Perhaps I'm missing the point, because I have a different notion of what vintage means

I personally love seeing the vintage "race" set-ups. How many Avante's have you seen fully hopped up? How many Frogs with full CRP set-ups? Standard ones are easy to find/see and that is what makes proper vintage racing buggies interesting to me. Seeing something completely different from the norm you see everywhere here on TC.

Also, it's such a change when I see a vehicle in non-boxart colours. Too many people do boxart for the "original" look or for resale value. I hardly ever saw a boxart coloured car back when I was young. Everyone wanted to have a "unique" look to their vehicle. Sort of miss that now.....

All the best

Steve

[Saito]

Quite an interesting topic. I dealt heavily with this in my last career of auto restoration. There were clients who demanded all out originality (points ignition systems, date coded engine blocks, original painting techniques etc.) and others that were happy with a few more moden touches like electronic ignitions newer, tougher urathane paints and such. The point is, different strokes for different folks. For vintage racing to truly emulate what it was back in that simpler time, there would be modifcations as others had mentioned. Nobody ran a car box stock.

On the other hand I would really like to see box stock racing as Hib implied. While not truly "vintage" (other than the cars involved) it might prove more interesting. I don't mind the idea of brushless motors if it meant a level playing field for those involved in terms of a powerplant. I'd like to see MSCs retained. Driving a car with a vintage three-step is quite a bit more challenging the today's ESCs with brakes (though some MSCs did have that feature). I'd even like the old 1200mah nicads. Remember when gearing was important just to get through a race with those old packs? But thats not too feasible so a modern battery would have to be sourced. The tricky part is breaking up the cars. Even in the Tamiya line up there are wild variations in performance. I sure wouldn't want to be the Hornet driver facing a Fox (or even a Frog for that matter). Vintage racing is fine for now but box stock racing could be just as neat.

[stulec52]

I think ( as a racer who started in 1983) that it is much easier to get into racing now, both technolocigally, and financially.

I raced today at a local club event. The atmosphere was great, very friendly.

I ran 2 Li-Po packs all day long. and brushless 13.5 ( same motor all day long, never taking it out to inspect or clean)

the car ( X Ray tourer) wasn't particularly fast, but was about the same as the other top 5 cars.

I could run a few laps at the start to warm up.

My brushless will run many more events before requiring replacement.

I had spent not too much to get the car to the track, and felt it was really good value for money.

Back in the 80s, you HAD to have a fresh pack for each heat and final ( you could not re-charge during the same 24 hour period)

the packs were most certainly not cheap.

They only just made 5 minutes run time, if you peaked them on the starting grid.

So, you needed 6 packs to go to an event.

We ran stock motors which you could not open. 2 motors per each event, usually.

I had to personally make parts in the tech. dept. at my school to keep the car together.

I loved those days, but am well aware that we have it so much better/ easier now.

As for vintage racing, there are quite a few people into it now, and so long as they are having fun, I don't care what they run for motors or batteries.

Just put down some rules, get into the spirit of it and have fun.

[WillyChang]

your main trouble is... vintage racers are still RACERS at heart - they all wanna WIN!

when i spend all day at the racetrack racing, i go there to WIN... coming second is only first amongst the losers

i'd love to see a fleet of boxstock (say) Fox ('cos it ain't re-re'd) running a full heat on 540s, stock tyres... 6c NiMH only, any ESC.

but if i were racing... i'd still try to build it to go as fast as it can within the rules

[TA-Mark]

i'd love to see a fleet of boxstock (say) Fox ('cos it ain't re-re'd) running a full heat on 540s, stock tyres... 6c NiMH only, any ESC.

All ESCs are not created equal. Everyone run the same ESC too, then it would be all down to driver skill.

TEU101BK vs MambaMax(In brushed mode and tuned)... I know which I would want to use.

[WillyChang]

of course i'll be going for the freshest IB 4x00 "SHO" cells and run them thru the zapper, they'll pumping out 1.40V each by then...

[DudeWalker]

Vintage racing class seems to be bringing people to/back to the track. That's the most important thing. The reasons are above.

[larbut]

Earlier this summer I participated in my first race ever when I was invited to join arranging the vintage race classes (due to my vintage Tamiya interrest)

What we did was the following:

Two classes, 2WD and 4WD (like the nationla championship we joined)

Cars from 1990 or older.

2WD max Sport Tuned motor, 4WD max 19 Turn.

Re-re's allowed as long as the original was from before 1990.

That is all we defined, because the main thing was to get out those old runners and have a good time.

Sure, my Rough Rider could not compete with the Team Losi JRx2 Pro that won it all, but that was not the point.

We all laughed all day long by looking at re-re brats crashing, re-re Hornets jumping all over the track, and my Rough Rider simply falling to bits on every occation.

My point here is; yes, I would love to see only original vintage racers competeing with original or "at the time" hop ups, but I feel such rules would exclude so many from having the fun we had.

So, make it simple and let as many as possible attend and drive more or less whatever thay got :-) 8as long as it's "vintage" by apperance.

-Lars

[terry.sc]

Stand by for a mega post.

Once again, we have condescension? Anyway, I may not know even 0.1% as much as you about racing Terry, but I did already know that brushless motors aren't always faster (and I never referred to brushless purely in terms of speed)

My comments were aimed at all the replies you got before my reply, they all assumed "brushless" meant extremely fast motors in a vintage chassis. I know your point is about originality, as usual

Whether it's the speed or reliability, my point that running them in a vintage class alters what "vintage" really means, is still a point. It's a mechanical advancement to a car that didn't exist in the old days, so I thought it was worth a question. I think I said "As they would have been run" could include whatever hopups were around at the time, for practicality.

Again it depends on your perception. In 1985 I was running with a carbon fibre top deck on my Optima, there was even a very nice full carbon fibre monocoque chassis for it. Even way back in 1982 racers were using carbon fibre chassis and ESCs on the racing SRBs so although you might think these upgrades are too modern they were certainly around at the time. Would you feel disappointed if modern racers used these same parts on their vintage racers? I'm sure you would but they are legitimate hop ups of the time.

And if that's all they raced at Goodwood, what motor racing enthusiast wouldn't feel a little disappointed knowing those classic F1 cars had all been tainted and homogenized in such a way?

I'm sure racing enthusiasts aren't disappointed that the old F1 racers aren't going around on radial tyres, that they use modern brake materials to stop them and that the drivers now use seatbelts and fireproof overalls. They also running with modern rebuilt Cosworth DFVs in the back of them and enthusiasts are happier seeing them racing around the track rather than being kept absolutely original and therefore in a museum somewhere.

My personal preference would be to watch a race between box-stock cars, because I just reckon that would be the most fun.

As others have pointed out the only way for that to happen is for someone to provide all the cars and equipment. Make just one part of the setup restricted (box stock cars) means a lot more work on motors/batteries/setup/etc to get the winning edge. I ran a spec class at my own club so we all used standard 540s and the same chassis and gear ratios. I used an old ESC I had lying around, but because it has a high end race ESC my car was so much faster than all the others. Limit the motor and ESC then everyone will be using the latest LRP Stock Spec batteries for that little bit more speed. Limit the batteries as well and especially if they aren't the large capacity modern cells you will see some very "creative" methods of charging them to get the most out of them as the racers certainly wouldn't be using them again after the event. In the 90s the Trinity Street Spec was a race championship using pan cars with limits on just about everything they could, in the end it died out as such items as the damper lube you used on your kingkpins and bearings, how you ran in your motor and how you charged your batteries became really important to keep up.

Preferences aside though, your line about "once you got past a few lads running at a local club there certainly wasn't anything 'box stock'" makes club level racing sound like nothing much, whereas it's actually a lot closer to how I would imagine a vintage race to be - a very club like atmosphere. Perhaps I'm missing the point, because I have a different notion of what vintage means

Vintage racing is a lot more like what you imagine, where having a good time is as important as getting your hands on a little plastic trophy which seems to be the priority for a lot of people today. Modern brushless motors and lipo batteries are something that revives that old atmosphere as racers now spend time between races chatting with friends instead of rebuilding motors and discharging/charging batteries, and they certainly work out cheaper in the long run than brushed motors and Nimhs. Club level racing in the 80s was never a friendly meeting up and running your cars as you imagine it to be, it has always been competitive even in the early 80s and back then you would spend all your time between races rebuilding your car for the next race, the old highly tuned motors usually taking a lot of work. I was even going to the extreme of stripping the rear end of a Frog down between races to sort out the diff. With the reliability and ease of maintenance of modern equipment todays race meetings are a lot more relaxed and friendly than they used to be back then. If a modern club isn't a welcoming, friendly place then that is down to the members of that club, not racing in general, and that club will be due to no new members to replace the old ones when they move on.

Weren't those simple club races where it all began for most people? Perhaps the friendly atmosphere of local club racing in the 80s was the last truly great era of R/C racing? It certainly was according to a lot of people I've spoken to over the years. But unlike you (and them), I wasn't there. I've just collected a ton of old R/C magazines from the 80s, and if the "letters to the editors" columns are anything to go by, then by the mid 80s many clubs were lamenting the spiraling costs and dwindling attendance rates of R/C racing as it (quite unavoidably) became more professional and serious. This time seems to correspond fairly well with the moment when cars started losing their realism, and nowadays it's also corresponds to when a lot of collectors consider the "vintage" era of R/C buggy design to have ended, so...

The realism of buggies really ended in the early 80s, the Frog, RC10, Ninja, etc although having a passing resemblance to full size buggies were no more realistic than a modern B4 or others. The 'golden age' for collecting r/c is more down to the age of the majority of us, in 10 years time collectors won't be interested in any early 80s buggies apart from those seen as important cars by previous collectors, and eventually at some point a T-Maxx will be seen as a prized collectable.

R/C certainly in the UK never really took off until until the mid 80s and the Hornet/Grasshoper/Frog/Hotshot era where the cars were readily available, durable and easy to maintain, although less realistic. The racing scene was never those 'simple club races' you are thinking of unless you really were there purely to be with your friends rather than to compete, the majority were there to race and beat the others. The end of the 'great era' you are talking about ended thanks to the introduction of video games consoles taking away the funding of those 'simple club racers', where the dedicated racers kept on going and numbers only really dipped in the early 90s due to the power war with highly tuned one race meeting motors.

I can't say what it was like anywhere else in the world, but in the UK we certainly had strong support for the racing side of the hobby right through to the late 90s, the only ones affected by a drop off in numbers were those clubs that were nothing more than a few mates meeting up to have a few races for fun, so when they grew up and moved on there was no one to replace them, and the really serious racing clubs. Having looked back to those 'innocent' times of racing and comparing the work and money I had to put in to remain competitive at club level in the early to mid 80s, a Frog including necessary upgrades and electrics costing todays equivalent of 480, my 4WD costing the equivalent of 1000 today to be competitive, and with spending todays equivalent of 45-50 per month in running costs, it is certainly considerably cheaper to race today and was actually cheaper over all to race in the late 80s when those letters were complaining about spiraling costs. The late 80s when you are talking about regarding 'spiraling costs',the only areas that got more expensive was motors and tyres (as we now had soft tyres that actually gripped so the cars were easier to drive) This expense was offset by better quality batteries (they lasted longer than 3 months!) and cars no longer needing a fortune spending on them in upgrades so the kits were a lot cheaper than before.

The relaxed and friendly clubs back then are still around being exactly the same relaxed and friendly clubs today, the 'great era' of club racing you describe has never gone away. The clubs that took their racing seriously are the same ones that take their racing seriously today, the clubs that have generally disappeared are those serious racing clubs. The relaxed and friendly clubs are the ones still here because those are the clubs that have continually attracted new racers over the years, the serious ones frighten new racers away with the long list of 'must haves' that the racers seem to need, so when the old members stop racing there's no one to replace them.

My point was that if there are going to be vintage race meets that revive vintage cars, perhaps they should revive that vintage atmosphere too - the time before the kids with their Frogs stopped turning up to clubs, and before the winner was the person with the fattest wallet. Keep the cars and the competition as simple and as vintage as practical, and you might just be harking back to an era worth reviving? Just a thought though.

It seems such vintage meets are impractical on a large, organized scale (unlike in the 1:1 world, where there is no end to people's devotion toward running their cars at their original specs), and perhaps instead only on a small scale between friends.

Running old chassis with new equipment makes things a lot more simpler, limiting it to old motors/tyres/escs, etc means more work for the trophy whores and a wider range of performance difference between cars compared with using modern equipment. It also helps that the limits imposed (such as 27 turn 17.5 Turn motors) mean any old equipment you already have can be used so helps encourage interest in vintage racing - the only specific item you need to buy is the car itself.

Where do you stop? Limit motors to brushed only, then do you limit it to modern 27 turn stock motors or allow the highly strung vintage motors instead? Then do you allow motor rebuilds and modifications, a lot of racers will buy a motor, then replace the brushes and springs with their own preference so unless you are using handout motors and banning any tuning or running in you still won't get that level playing field you want to see. Putting more controls on the event is what makes it more serious.

Then do you restrict them to the tyres of the era? Until the late 80s for buggies the tyres were relatively useless, for example at the 87 worlds on the hard dirt surface there was only one tyre that gave any hint of grip and if you didn't have those you struggled just to drive a 2WD in a straight line, never mind around the track. Allowing the most suitable tyres for the track once again makes vintage racing easier and therefore more fun.

Giving free reign to use modern electronics is what is attracting people to vintage racing, every racer will have spare radios, ESCs, motors and batteries. Allowing them to use this equipment instead of them having to buy a whole load of "period correct" electrics means they just have to buy the car to go racing, with no worries of whether they will last the length of the race with their 1400mah batteries, or in the case of brushless they can go have a chat after the race instead of tearing the motor down, skimming and rebrushing it, and rebuilding it before the next race. All this freedom is what makes sure vintage meetings have a relaxed, friendly atmosphere.

[tecnica2001]

I agree whole heartedly with Terry.

I used to race Touring cars, when It all became too technical and serious, I lost interest, because it was more like work than fun, it was stressing me out having to try and keep up with some of the guys that had better know how, regarding motors etc.

I don't mind the battery charging, but dredded the motor tunning and watching my motor loose performance, because I wasn't good at motor tunning.

I'm definitely going to vintage national, after almost two years out off racing, and maybe next year I'll go again if they do it in CT.

[RichieRich]

Interesting topic. I had the same question a while back when I saw an add for the Vintage Nationals in CT. (What board has Erich not posted on? ) I mean, brushless is the antithesis of vintage, right?

Anyways, after thinking about it, I believe that brushless is fine. The theme of the vintage races is to go out and have fun. Who wants to sweat over making a 5 min race with the proper gearing while running a 1200 mAh SCR pack? Remember that guy who's pack dumped on the last turn of the final lap? I knew it was you!!!! So, it's just plug and play and have fun. Who cares if you blow out a vintage tranny with a brushless 3.5 motor?

[Capt Splatt]

I've now been to 1 vintage meet, so I am in my opinion, now, an expert.

What I found came down to this. There appear to be 2 types of racers.

The racer's racer. He turns up with the fastest **** thing he can lay hands on from the period and the proceeds to ensure its well capable of mixing it with the latest and greatest kits of the modern era. These guys are more than happy to squeeze LiPo's, brushless systems, whatever into there cars. They'll do whatever it takes to ensure that they have every chance to win. They didn't seem to care about whether the interesting little quirks of the tech back then. It was more important to see their old favorite still doing what it was designed to do, race. I think these guys should have as much latitute as you'd allow any modern class. At least then they can be up front about the mods they've made and revel in the ingenuity they've displayed. I used to love that part of racing when I tried to compete. There was nothing better than seeing an innovation succeed ( and you could get a good laugh out of seeing it fail ). So, as long as everyone agrees on some basic restrictions to ensure its still good fun and reasonably even, like a motor limit brushed or brushless, let them go for it.

The other kind is the one I fall into. The collector/runner. I don't have the finances or time to compete anymore. Not if I want to pursue the part of the hobby I really enjoy. Building or restoring old RCs to watch them run again. When you get one of these guys on the track they stand out. They're slow and tend to be a little erratic. This is normally because they are:

A. Trying to learn how to drive a proper track;

B. Trying to get a car that has, at best, been bashed around a local park to do 2 consistent laps; or

C. Busy watching everyone else, because they just can't get enough of watching these cool old cars try to take jumps or wallow around corners.

In the classes we ran there was an option to run the Sports Tuned or the silver can. For most in the plastic tub (sporstman) class the silver can was more than ample and the one guy that bravely bolted a sports tuned was absolutely ballistic (regardless of which was up he was). Which lead me to think that the sound of a really nice old car grinding itself to death as it tumbles down the track end over end is the ugliest sounds I've heard. And I've been ina delivery room! But I didn't mind when he passed me on the straight like I was reversing, I was having a blast just running. To me, I'd rather spend the money on another resto than a bunch of race quality gear that gained me nothing the other 50 weekends of the year. After all, while a brushless is flawlessly reliable, how many of us still run 10 or 15 year old silver cans?

So my thought was, vintage might benefit from adopting the 2 approaches favoured by my two stereotypes. Let the Associated/Losi/Schumacher/Mugen drivers have their 4WD and 2WD classes and open up the tech as far as the guys are happy to go. Then give the "collectors" their classes that are tied more closely to the tech of the time. badword, I'd even run a 3 speed msc if everyone else did. AS for chassis differences for the "collector" (I'm using the term because I can't think of a better one), I'd love to see how my Wild One would fair against an Ultima of the period.

That's my 2 cents spent.

I feel better now

[WillyChang]

To be honest... i don't really miss 1970s/80s racing when I was running 1/12th electric and 1/8th gas onroad.

The amount of innovating & DIY required was all-consuming; you'd burnout if your wallet didn't first.

What i do miss is, when you took a drive around the suburbs on weekends, in EVERY deadend court

you'd find kiddies riding their bikes and rollerskates, playing with their RC Frogs & Hornets.

That is sorely missing today, and i suspect that will never be relived again.

[hedge]

The amount of innovating & DIY required was all-consuming

Yes it was all about this back then, I used to enjoy reading about the mods in the magazines of the time - still do

[Z]

I'm definitely going to vintage national, after almost two years out off racing, and maybe next year I'll go again if they do it in CT.

By CT, do you mean Connecticut? Maybe there's a chance I'm not the only vintage fan in the state! I wouldn't hold out much hope for a vintage class being started around here, though. The nitrohead punks in running all the tracks around here probably didn't know what a Hotshot was until Mr. T rereleased it. Some tracks are so far gone they don't even run an off-road electric class at all. There just aren't enough vintage enthusiasts to start a vintage class in this part of the country, but even if there was, I doubt a friendly attitude would last long. The deep-pocketed hardcore racers would make it miserable for people just wanting to have fun. Pessimistic though it may be, that's my take on vintage racing in New England.

[tecnica2001]

By CT, do you mean Connecticut? Maybe there's a chance I'm not the only vintage fan in the state! I wouldn't hold out much hope for a vintage class being started around here, though. The nitrohead punks in running all the tracks around here probably didn't know what a Hotshot was until Mr. T rereleased it. Some tracks are so far gone they don't even run an off-road electric class at all. There just aren't enough vintage enthusiasts to start a vintage class in this part of the country, but even if there was, I doubt a friendly attitude would last long. The deep-pocketed hardcore racers would make it miserable for people just wanting to have fun. Pessimistic though it may be, that's my take on vintage racing in New England.

Hey Z, off course in Connecticut, where have you been bro, they're having a big Vintage Off Road Nationals in Waterburry, Connecticut, there are people coming from all over the place, and a lot of people from Connecticut too. Come on down

[Z]

Hey Z, off course in Connecticut, where have you been bro, they're having a big Vintage Off Road Nationals in Waterburry, Connecticut, there are people coming from all over the place, and a lot of people from Connecticut too. Come on down

It appears I've played the fool , and looked for my info in all the wrong places! I'll continue this conversation by PM.

[Live Steam Mad]

Once again another great topic H., I enjoyed reading this one.

Yeah my thoughts are that I would like to see a small local dirt track (say about 4 feet wide lane, track being about 40 feet by about 25 feet, I sometimes hate those large tracks where I am 15 feet above the ground on a podium trying to control a 1/10th scale car that I can't see properly becuase it's like 100 feet away) where a bunch of about 5 or 6 vintage Tamiya fans could get together at least once a week and run a selection of re-release cars or originals, e.g. Frog, Brat, Hornet, Fast Attack, Super Champ, and Pajero (original one), maybe even a Wild Willy 1. Sound familiar?! :lol: Yes, basically I want to recreate the Punky Brewster race as an official Tamiya Club event. I seriously believe that it would be very popular.

I am always put off and intimidated from going to my most 'local' track in Southport, 22 miles away, because of needing to have lots of modern expensive racing equipment (in my mind), and I know that it will (at least in my mind) always be associated with being 'competitive' racing, and I got very dissolutioned with that many years ago (1993) when I last raced my cars at Earlestown, 5 miles from here (which we can't race at now since we were in a Supermarket car park and the Supermarket started opening on Sundays so we couldn't use it anymore) (although I admit I still enjoyed it greatly).

That was one of the wonderful things about going to Kidderminster in 2007 for the big TC meet, i.e. it was just a huge fun event and I had a great time 'racing' my car when I knew that the competitive element was largely meaningless. Thank goodness!

The only thing that would have to be modified about the Punky Brewster race in this country would be the dirt surface of the track, i.e. it would have to be done with a lot of sand mixed into the dirt, because England seems to be nearly always damp...

Cheers,

Alistair G.