Srb Gearbox Differences In Finish?

[Live Steam Mad]

Hi, I today received yet another SRB gearbox in the post off Ebay, and was expecting good things but when I took a look at it I found I had a problem. So I thought I would ask about it here.

OK here we go;-

I have one "perfect" SRB later style gearcase which I am going to use with my "perfect" Sand Scorcher shell. It has a mid-to-light grey / silver finish, matt but slightly gloss, and textured with a silvery glittery twinkley finish which is reasonably subtle. The condition of it is "as new" with no scratches or marks. I got this from UK and paid a fair amount for it.

Then I have also got one "perfect" SRB early style gearcase which is for use with a Rough Rider that I hope to purchase at some point. Again the surface finish is a very near identical colour, a gnat's wing more glittery, and again the condition of it is the same. I got this from USA and it was reasonably cheap, considering.

Then there is the one that came today. It's an early style SRB gearcase but the surface finish and colour are markedly different. It's quite a dark grey, matt, and there is practically no glittering visible. The condition is excellent, not a scratch on it and very few marks.

The thing that is worrying me about all of this is whether someone has done something to the surface finish of this latter (or indeed any of them) gearcase. I know that you can bead blast them - but then they are generally very light, almost cream in colour when that has been done, from what I have seen? And this is quite a dark grey. If this is a finish that has been applied later on, then it has maybe been put on by professionals since the finish is way beyond a simple brush paint or spray job as it is near perfect, with no marks, overspray, runs, bubbles, or anything at all.

So the question is, is there an early series of SRB gearcase that I have been previously unaware of, that was a dark grey dull flat finish?

Or is it (more likely?) that I have been ripped off yet again on Ebay?

I would be VERY interested to hear experienced views on this, and in particular to hear from owners of NIB's or from people that had bought an SRB in 1979 or 1980-ish.

Pictures below to show the gearcases. The one on the right in the shot of the 3 is the later style one, the one in the middle is the early style one and the darker one on the left is the "odd" one. I also included an overall shot of the darker one and then a close up of it, and also a close up shot of the early style "as new" one as a comparison. The glittering effect is not quite so visible in real life and in fact I had to soften the image as this camera lens is ruthless!

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[KEV THE REV]

Hi Alistair, I wouldn't say that you have been ripped off - the darker g/box (todays) looks like a lot of SRB g/boxes that i have had that were a bit oxidized ,dirty , greasy etc and when cleaned up (without blasting / ultrasonics etc)they look like your darker one .It looks like a normal ,cleaned up good condition g/box to me .The lighter ones you have look to be have been stored away from the atmosphere thus have no oxidisation etc.I also have SRB g/boxes like those .I have noticed that SRB parts from different chassis when mixed together to make one chassis can sometimes look like a patchwork as SRB parts vary in colour due to the different lives and conditions they have been subjected to but can generally be polished up to equalise the colour tones again- hope this helps

[terry.sc]

As Kev said, the darker gearboxes is what they should all look like after nearly 30 years of oxidisation. The shiny ones have obviously been kept sealed in the packaging for most of their time, if they came from a runner I would question the shiny glittery finish of the other two rather than the dark grey casing.

[A_ortiz]

the one in the lower pic seems like it was sand blasted , it makes stuff look like new with a glittery rough surface and if i remember right i never had any superchamp parts that looked like that when new, infact they looked a little dark ..

[Live Steam Mad]

Maybe you are right and mine have been fine grade sand blasted. I have seen some glass blasted SRB gearcases on here from one TC member and they looked almost white ;-

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.a...0151&id=610

...in particular look here where the normal silver colour textured SRB gearcase is on the left (original used condition) and the glass blasted one is on the right. Looks almost white to me...

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/pictureframe.asp...003113045_6.jpg

...and the results don't seem to match what I have. Also I saw some on Ebay from a seller who confirmed to me that they had been sand blasted (or at least blasted by something) (I didn't buy them!) and they were beige (cream).

My bright ones are just like my many other SRB gearcases that I have which are dirty and corroded, but minus the dirt and corrosion (the surface is the same texture and very similar colour). The excellent condition "dark" one that I have has almost no texture, and could almost have been bead blasted but it's not cream / white, it's dark grey.

I feel that there is some information missing here, like maybe the very early SRB gearcases were not painted with casting paint, but the rest of the later ones were.

I notice that if you rub too hard on a later version "typical" SRB dirty / corroded gearcase, it makes a dull, more reflective mark, as though you have rubbed through some kind of casting paint (doesn't seem to happen on the MK1 ones). I think that the company that Tamiya contracted to make the metal parts used a casting paint. Just a hypothesis at the moment!

Like most of these vintage mysteries that we investigate into here on TC, I think this one is deeper than first it seems.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[Live Steam Mad]

Well I think that I may have solved one of these mysteries with the help of another TC member. The dark coloured MK1 SRB gearcase that I had above is apparently made using some different procedures / processes from the later gearcases. Look at what Zulu69 says here ;-

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.a...6&cid=82739

... "The later models have a satin finish at the gear case that is almost impossible to restore to original state and most of the times you end up polishing it that I just dont like for the big alloy parts of the chassis.I like to polish only small parts and bits if needed... With MKI you just need to clean the parts and most of the times you will get an amazing result ,specialy for parts with little use...they look like new out of the box...!!"

This is his killer statement and it does indeed seem to be true, I cleaned up some sections of my dark MK1 gearcase with White Spirit and indeed it does now look strangely close to being almost like new!

Have a look at the pic's below. One shows the dark MK1 gearcase using a flash (sorry about the use of my new compact camera LOL) and as you can see the area looks great where I used only White Spirit (i.e. original proper apprearance, matt, slightly sparkly). The other shows a reflection from the table light (no flash) where I have used " Carr&Day&Martin " metal polish, i.e. an abrasive (of course the section done with White Spirit only has no abrasive of any kind used).

Great thanks to Zulu69 for solving one of these issues for me!

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[retroman]

If it's any help, the gearbox casing on my Super Champ, is a lovely satin silver finish, but the casing on my Scorcher is quite a dark grey. Mostly because it was very dirty, and some idiot (namely me!!) tried cleaning it with Mr Muscle, which sent it a very dark grey colour. Whoops! Oh well, it is a runner

Both cars have the Mk2 style gear casing

[Live Steam Mad]

Interestingly there is tonight an auction on Ebay for "brand new gearcases". Check out the pictures ;-

Frustratingly there is not much entropy in the pic's and interpolating and sharpening just brings out the compression macroblocks and other artifacts.

The gearcases seem to resemble the ones that I bought i.e. light silvery colour with a very fine texture with a slight glitter (not white or cream at all).

Unless these and mine have both been beadblasted

107 GBP is the asking price on the auction Too pricey for me, I paid 1/2 that.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[TA-Mark]

I've found this with more than just the gearbox halves while chasing up SRB alloy parts. 1 whole side of my chassis had been destroyed and the replacement alloy parts were a mix of silvery and creamy coloured alloy. Once I'd hit them with a fine burr bit in the dremel to remove any dags and them polished them you can't tell the difference. I realise not everyone wants a polished SRB, but the other option for the regular kit finish is to buy the right colour and if the picture is so bad you can't tell what colour it is, ask the seller for more photos or skip the auction.

Fully beadblasted would look ok. The alloy would naturally tarnish on the shelf and retain an even finish over time.

[Live Steam Mad]

I've found this with more than just the gearbox halves while chasing up SRB alloy parts. 1 whole side of my chassis had been destroyed and the replacement alloy parts were a mix of silvery and creamy coloured alloy. Once I'd hit them with a fine burr bit in the dremel to remove any dags and them polished them you can't tell the difference. I realise not everyone wants a polished SRB, but the other option for the regular kit finish is to buy the right colour and if the picture is so bad you can't tell what colour it is, ask the seller for more photos or skip the auction.

Fully beadblasted would look ok. The alloy would naturally tarnish on the shelf and retain an even finish over time.

I've never seen any cream coloured SRB parts. Not even slightly cream. However glass blasting seems to make them look cream (so I have seen in someone's showroom on here (Simensays ISTR ?) and also on multiple Ebay gearboxes were I e-mailed the owner who told me that they had a slightly weird cream look to them and that he thought that they had been blasted by something).

Cheers,

A.G.

[TA-Mark]

I would go photograph to show you, but they are all the same mirror finish polished now. It was a greyish cream and yes, may have been sand/bead blasted. Every individual part I got from ebay had a slight different colour. Some were yellowish grey (my guess it was on a shelf in a smoker's house - front arms), some were very clean perfect silver like new alloy (rear arm), some were very greasy and dirty and stayed darker grey when cleaned (bars that go between the front uprights) and then there was the creamy grey colour of the front upright. All the replacement parts were a different colour to what was on the chassis already.

If I hadn't polished them all the same or done something to make them all the same shade of grey the chassis would have looked terrible. I'm in the process of making alloy extra parts at the moment so no photos until I'm completed the buggy. If it looks 1/2 as good as Rad22rad's SRBs I'll be over the moon.

[Live Steam Mad]

Well another interesting (for me at least ) episode happened today.

I got another gearbox off Ebay, this one being brand new, but an original MK2 gearcase and not a re-re Buggy Champ one (no "R" / "L" inside the case) and it's not like any of those 3 gearboxes that I mentioned above. This one has a surface finish is instead exactly the same as several crappy scratched MK2 gearcases that I have had off Ebay, but with the addition of being cleaner and perfect, no damages or scratches. The surface finish is mostly satin with a slight semi gloss on the round motor housing part, very slight sparkle but almost none, just looks like a normal Aluminium casting.

Now it seems obvious to me that this is how they are supposed to be. The 2 sparkly (also flawless) looking ones above are either been processed with casting paint (seems unlikely) or have been bead / fine grade sand blasted I think.

Photos blurred slightly to more realistically simulate what I see when I look at them!

This one cost me 17 Euros!

Seller assured me that these were not re-re parts and were originals from 1980's. Actually I would like to have a look at Buggy Champ gearcase parts in the flesh to see what they look like in comparison, that would interest me.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[Badboy]

I haven't gone thru everything here but...

You can either Sand blast, metal blast or glas blast!

All three gives different colouring on the metal.

Sand gives mor whitish wile metal gives...(pause) metal look and glas gives more glittery finnish on the metal.

I know Trail Jero has been glas blasting his Super Champ parts...

Sorry no pics but his is more of the glittery one...

Badboy

[Live Steam Mad]

I haven't gone thru everything here but...

You can either Sand blast, metal blast or glas blast!

All three gives different colouring on the metal.

Sand gives mor whitish wile metal gives...(pause) metal look and glas gives more glittery finnish on the metal.

I know Trail Jero has been glas blasting his Super Champ parts...

Sorry no pics but his is more of the glittery one...

Badboy

AHH VERY INTERESTING. This is some of the missing information I think. Now the jigsaw puzzle starts to come together!

However you mention that Sand blasting gives a whitish finish? That's odd because the ones that I saw in Simensays showroom (and presumably the cream ones that I saw on Ebay) have been Glass blasted he says, not sand blasted http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.a...0151&id=610 . Personally I dislike the white / cream finish.

" Metal blasting " is a new one on me.

You say that one of these techniques gives a glittery finish - this is very interesting and is exactly what my MK1 and MK2 glittery gearcases look to have been done with. I which case, I can HIGHLY recommend it, the finish is totally awesome and looks incredibly nice, infact I prefer it to the original

Time to look up blasting on Wikipedia methinks...

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[Live Steam Mad]

Well that's odd, Wiki has nothing on the surface finish that is obtained. Anyone got any good web links with pictures or good information on the finish obtained with these 3 different types of blasting?

Or if anyone can clarify further who has done any blasting themselves it would be appreciated.

Cheers,

ARG.

[Grubby]

ok then i hope this helps i did some sand blasting yesterday with an 80 synthetic grit the gearbox cases i did come out like a really light grey colour & they do sparkle in the sun, but because the surface is rougher it traps all the dirt from your fingers very easily.

Picture isn't brilliant had to take it with camera phone but when i get my batts charged for the camera will try & take a better picture.

[Live Steam Mad]

ok then i hope this helps i did some sand blasting yesterday with an 80 synthetic grit the gearbox cases i did come out like a really light grey colour & they do sparkle in the sun, but because the surface is rougher it traps all the dirt from your fingers very easily.

Picture isn't brilliant had to take it with camera phone but when i get my batts charged for the camera will try & take a better picture.

Interesting and helpful. You gotta love TC!

My MK1 and MK2 gearboxes shown and mentioned in my 1st post glitter quite noticeably even under domestic 60W Tungsten lighting.

My guess is that someone blasted them with finer grit that you used?

I have handled them many times and never noticed any even slight grubbiness from my mucky modelling hands LOL.

Yes better pic's would be great and much appreciated. I think the problem was you had the phone camera too close. That's the trouble I have with my compact camera (Casio Z750) it won't focus close unlike my 300D SLR . However the battery on my 300D is nearly dead and cut out 1/2 way through my previous pic's I hate Li-Ion batteries, they only seem to last 50 cycles or so and then die

Regards,

Alistair G.

[Live Steam Mad]

I recently found a helpful and interesting showroom entry by jeffy (Wayne) and SCORCHER KID where the latter TC member has processed some parts for Wayne using a blasting technique. Not sure whether it would come under glass blasting or sand blasting or metal blasting. Anyway here it is ;-

http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...89&id=17179

...that's the before, here is the after, showing the results ;-

http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...2&sid=19069

...looks very nice. Not a polished finish, and not really gloss, but instead seems to be a satin finish, just about devoid of any glittering or texture of any kind it seems, kind of like a "micro hammered metal" finish, and looks to be a bit smoother than the finish on my gearboxes that were rather glittery. I quite like the finish on these parts that SCORCHER KID has done.

In SCORCHER KID's showroom entry above, he says that these parts have been blasted with "Aluminium Oxide [Alundum] of 300 / 400 mesh at 80 PSI, and then given a nice tickle at the right pressure with Soda-Lime glass beads of 150 / 250 microns diameter at 5 PSI at the gun".

For anyone interested, here are two more showroom entries showing where SCORCHER KID has renovated 3-speed (Hilux, Blazer etc.) parts using a very similar technique ;-

http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...3&sid=17179

http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...21&id=17179

I am kinda itching to have a go at this myself and would like a list of the equipment that you need to do this as I have no experience of this. Hope it's not expensive but I have an awful feeling it might be? I'll contact SK when I get a mo' and ask the guy.

Anyone else done any of this blasting castings on their SRB's / 3 speeds?

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[Live Steam Mad]

OK I contacted SCORCHER KID, a great chap called Simon, and asked him what exact equipment he used (brand, model code) and how much it would cost here's what he told me ;-

"concerning the media blasting [on these SRB parts in my showroom entry of http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...89&id=17179 and on the parts in Wayne's showroom entry of http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...2&sid=19069 ] , all the machines that I used are very expensive industrial equipment made for the aerospace industry which costs thousands of Pounds. The reason why the finish on these [processed SRB] parts is very smooth and uniform is because of the finish that I put on them, Ipcote Sermetal finish which goes straight on to the aerospace parts, with no primer coat, and baked at 350 degrees Celcius, then the finish is burnished back with Soda-Lime glass beads...

...the [sRB] parts are first cleaned using aluminium oxide 120/220 mesh... I've recently started using a finer media of Soda-Lime glass, of 200 / 300 microns (uM) diameter, which give a even finer finish !!"

I think it's OK for me to post this here since it's in his showroom as well.

So it seems you need at the minimum ;-

1. A compressor capable of 80 PSI and a reasonable air flow at that pressure

2. A spray gun that you don't mind blasting abrasive materials through!

3. A decent amount of Alundum (Al203, Aluminum (Aluminium) Oxide) of either 300 / 400 "mesh" or 120 / 200 mesh, depending on your preference

4. An oven that you can set aside for a few hours (?) and that can sustain 350 degrees C for long periods

5. Ipcote Sermetal coating "paint"

6. Soda Lime glass powder / beads of 200 / 300 micrometres diameter

I did some searching and found out that Ipcote is a brand called "Indestructible Paint Inc." ;-

http://www.indestructiblepaint.com/Special...cts/IPCOTE.html

http://www.indestructible.co.uk/ipcote-coatings/

...and that the product is called Sermetal ;-

http://www.indestructible.co.uk/application-hints-ipcote/

...and of course the Sermetal is maybe an expensive paint!

So these parts haven't just been media blasted, they have been coated as well. I am not sure that I personally like the idea of them being coated, but I have to admit that they do look nice

Cheers,

Alistair G.

[SCORCHER KID]

OK I contacted SCORCHER KID, a great chap called Simon, and asked him what exact equipment he used (brand, model code) and how much it would cost here's what he told me ;-

"concerning the media blasting [on these SRB parts in my showroom entry of http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...89&id=17179 and on the parts in Wayne's showroom entry of http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?c...2&sid=19069 ] , all the machines that I used are very expensive industrial equipment made for the aerospace industry which costs thousands of Pounds. The reason why the finish on these [processed SRB] parts is very smooth and uniform is because of the finish that I put on them, Ipcote Sermetal finish which goes straight on to the aerospace parts, with no primer coat, and baked at 350 degrees Celcius, then the finish is burnished back with Soda-Lime glass beads...

...the [sRB] parts are first cleaned using aluminium oxide 120/220 mesh... I've recently started using a finer media of Soda-Lime glass, of 200 / 300 microns (uM) diameter, which give a even finer finish !!"

I think it's OK for me to post this here since it's in his showroom as well.

So it seems you need at the minimum ;-

1. A compressor capable of 80 PSI and a reasonable air flow at that pressure

2. A spray gun that you don't mind blasting abrasive materials through!

3. A decent amount of Alundum (Al203, Aluminum (Aluminium) Oxide) of either 300 / 400 "mesh" or 120 / 200 mesh, depending on your preference

4. An oven that you can set aside for a few hours (?) and that can sustain 350 degrees C for long periods

5. Ipcote Sermetal coating "paint"

6. Soda Lime glass powder / beads of 200 / 300 micrometres diameter

I did some searching and found out that Ipcote is a brand called "Indestructible Paint Inc." ;-

http://www.indestructiblepaint.com/Special...cts/IPCOTE.html

http://www.indestructible.co.uk/ipcote-coatings/

...and that the product is called Sermetal ;-

http://www.indestructible.co.uk/application-hints-ipcote/

...and of course the Sermetal is maybe an expensive paint!

So these parts haven't just been media blasted, they have been coated as well. I am not sure that I personally like the idea of them being coated, but I have to admit that they do look nice

Cheers,

Alistair G.

Hello alistair it seems we have a few cross wires regarding our recent conversation regarding the srb castings...i mentioned the ipcote sermetal as i point to why the surface is smooth and uniform,to accept this finish on jethete aerospace metal,not that the parts are coated in this material...i don't think the castings would stand up to the cooking time anyway ,350 degrees...

the parts are just blasted as normal using aluminium oxide but then burnished using sodalime glass bead...

hope this clears things up a bit ...soz pal...if i get 5 minutes today i'll put some clearer photos up

cheers

simon

[Live Steam Mad]

OK well that's good news, no coating needed and no baking, on either the SRB or Hilux / Blazer parts. Just blasting with Aluminium Oxide and then Soda Lime Glass. If I ever get access to a compressor capable of 80 PSI I'll have a go at it myself! Somehow I don't think that Tamiya's battery powered air compressor that I have is going to be able to do this task!!

Yes good close up pictures of the SRB items would be really good. The trick is I suppose to take the pictures in daylight without the camera flash, and get them really focussed very sharply and with fairly high shutter speed (1/150th sec.) so that the metal surface is shown as true as possible to what you see with your eyes on these parts so we can judge what they look like, that would interest me greatly.

Thanks Simon,

Alistair G.