28yoKid

Which Esc/motor To Create Fire Breathing Fire Dragon?

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Hi all,

I have nearly completed the build of my first Fire Dragon -I love it! However, I really want to make it an absolute beast!

I have the standard tamiya ESC (101?), which I have been told can handle a ST Tamiya 540.

I really would like to go a bit more powerful than the ST, but am aware that I would need to upgrade the ESC too.

Would I need lower turns (more torque) to counter the 4WD transmission drag?

I am looking to run it off-road on mud, grass and over jumps, with some climbing too.

So c'mon guys, what ESC/Motor combo would you recommend for a Fire Breathing Beast?

2926898295_fc25ee4783_b.jpg

Link to My Fire Dragon Gallery!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31286367@N06/

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Personally I like running the older 550 can motors in my Hotshot- any of the Kyosho LeMans or AYK Magnum 360 series. The 101BK handles them nicely as they have a much lower draw rating than the new motors and they have tons of torque. I don't know if this is an option for you.

BTW you want lower winds for more torque.... lower turns = more RPM. You want to look for 'doubles' at least for 4wd (so a 19x2 is 19 turns and 2 winds).

I have tried some 'hotter' 540 stock motors- Trinity P2Ks, Cobalt CO27- and they seem to thermal out a 101BK in any buggy with limited ventilation. I ran a Futaba MC800C with a P2K at the Vintage Nationals with a 13tooth pinion and the thing went well even geared so low. I have also tried a Mamba BL system and that redefines fast, but also is costly.

If you want decent speed at a lower price get a mild (15T or 16T) ESC and a 19x2. It really depends how much you want to spend (and what part of the world you're in for brands, etc) but I would say get a mild mod ESC w/ reverse (Duratrax Intellispeed, Novak XRS) and a Fireball (or similar) 19T motor (total about $60-70) and have fun.

Just my ramblings...

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Personally I like running the older 550 can motors in my Hotshot- any of the Kyosho LeMans or AYK Magnum 360 series. The 101BK handles them nicely as they have a much lower draw rating than the new motors and they have tons of torque. I don't know if this is an option for you.

BTW you want lower winds for more torque.... lower turns = more RPM. You want to look for 'doubles' at least for 4wd (so a 19x2 is 19 turns and 2 winds).

I have tried some 'hotter' 540 stock motors- Trinity P2Ks, Cobalt CO27- and they seem to thermal out a 101BK in any buggy with limited ventilation. I ran a Futaba MC800C with a P2K at the Vintage Nationals with a 13tooth pinion and the thing went well even geared so low. I have also tried a Mamba BL system and that redefines fast, but also is costly.

If you want decent speed at a lower price get a mild (15T or 16T) ESC and a 19x2. It really depends how much you want to spend (and what part of the world you're in for brands, etc) but I would say get a mild mod ESC w/ reverse (Duratrax Intellispeed, Novak XRS) and a Fireball (or similar) 19T motor (total about $60-70) and have fun.

Just my ramblings...

Thanks CivilGuy! I feel a bit more knowledgeable now. So 2 winds minimum. What would be best for winds? What options are there?

Any other advice anyone?

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WOW - I just searched for ezRun systems. Those prices are L-O-W! All my BL systems were much more than that!! But I guess all technology prices drop quickly?

If your budget allows a little more money, go brushless. They are low maintenance and quite powerful.

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If I was just starting out, I would try the EZ-Run as well...

I can say for sure to stay FAR away from the Novak XRS. It's a current limiting ESC that only puts out 40A (TEU-101BK runs 60A ;)). This means no matter what motor your using, you have about the same acceleration of a stock 540 with different top speeds. Complete waste of $50 IMO. If you want to stay with brushed motors and need an inexpensive upgrade, I would go with the Tamiya TEU-302BK ($60 on ebay). It's runs up to 120A continuous and has adjustable drive frequency for different levels of punch w/ different motors. It's also a great match for Tamiya Super Stock 23T motors which are great brushed motors.

Keep in mind that if you stay "brushed", you will wear motors out. This means you have to rebuild or replace...

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I can say for sure to stay FAR away from the Novak XRS. It's a current limiting ESC that only puts out 40A (TEU-101BK runs 60A ;)).

I didn't know that- my first recommendation was the Duratrax which is rated at 128A. The upper end Novak stuff is great, but is all I have used (GTX @ 700A). I had seen the XRS on the LHS shelf so I threw that in there. Please ignore that and forgive my ignorance. ;)

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Don't worry about it. I made the same mistake too and actually bought one (for my brother). His 17T powered DF02 w/ XRS couldn't keep up with my 23T Vanquish with a 20yr old Tekin Sport ESC... ;)

I think the advertised 15T limit just seemed too good to be true... ;) BTW: The same goes for the LRP Ai Runner ESCs that are the same price. Buyer beware... ;)

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Why not get the ezRun combo and go brushless? Good value for money and a decent turn of speed...

Checked ebay, they seem to be 17T, 13T or 9T. What 'T' should I go for with the EZ run combo?

ps looks gr8 value for money!

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The 9T/35A combo is the one everybody has been raving about. Should be similar to a good 15T brushed motor. You can see several videos on Youtube to give an example. Just make sure to buy the smaller pinions that fits your Fire Dragon. The kit pinion is meant for the low-reving silver can that comes with the car. Start with the smallest pinion and work your way up (until the motor starts getting warm)...

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer..._type=&aq=f

BTW: The 13T is supposed to be similar to a or 19T motor (I forget which). A 17T is similar to a 27T race motor. I would stay away from the 17T unless your actually racing in a "stock" class that requires 17T brushless and/or 27T brushed

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I went to the Off Road track at Southport in NW England a few weeks ago and had 8 year old kids rocketing past me using Associated B44's with either Novak GT7 or similar and 10 turn double motors (I asked), or Novak brushless ESC's and Novak 6.5T brushless motors. I was using a Top Force, Tamiya Super Stock RZ motor with 16T pinion, GP3300 NiMH and Tamiya 302 ESC. To be honest it was quite a shock as I thought my car was fast compared to a stock motor. The acceleration AND top speed that they were doing down the main straight had to be seen to be believed. It was quite an eye opener. Several top drivers had won major championships there and at other similar tracks using Novak GT7 and a 10 double turn Reedy Krypton motor.

My cells which had never really got more than hand warm before when "fun running" were actually hand hot after running on the Southport track, and the motor's commutator was a dull colour showing the Copper getting burned up (although the brushes did not go purple at the tip which was odd), and the ESC did cut out just the once, and my Tamiya connectors and motor bullet connectors were getting quite hot.

So I decided to change over my "race" car to running Corally style connectors (4mm) like the team drivers all do (Tamiya connectors melt) and I decided to at least get a steel pinion (coming in the post) and try an old second hand Reedy motor that I dug out (that I have never tried before).

I did notice that when I dug the old Reedy motor out (it was a Reedy Ultra but the label identifying the wind has come off) and tried it, it sounded a lot faster than the top speed of the Tamiya Super Stock RZ, and more importantly, whereas the Tamiya motor whined and vibrated as though the armature was unbalanced, the Reedy motor showed no brush bounce or horrid arcing or vibration and was very smooth right up to the top end. I was most impressed.

That led me to grabbing a second hand Novak GT-7 off Ebay for 18 quid (GBP), it's a forwards only controller but has won world championships so it's way good enough for me.

Prior to all this I thought that comm. lathes were cheap and that brushed motors would do me fine. However I just found out last night how much comm. lathes cost and I got a shock :blink:

I have looked at the EZ run combo's, RC mart seems to have them at insane low prices like 50 quid for motor and ESC, they are sensorless brushless motors. However they do 5.5T and not 6.5T, and the EZ Run ESC could only pass 60 amp's continuous I think (not 120A like the XERUN which is the next step up) but still would be better than brushed as it's maintenance free. Trouble is if I imported one to UK I would be VAT'ed (sales tax) for 17.5 per cent, plus 8 quid Royal Mail Clearance Fee... and what do you do if they burn out? If I am spending significant money then I need a UK dealer that I can return the thing to if it burns up. Several people at the Southport track told me they had burnt out a few Novak motors LOL.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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If you like to run vintage equipment, a comm lathe is a wise investment. I got the Integy Super Lathe 3 for only $119 at Tower. I've rebuilt dozens of vintage motors that we found in my friends garage. So many that we have not had a chance to test hardn'y any... :P

The only trouble I had with my lathe, was learning how to use it. Integy had great products with terrible instructions... :blink:

It's certainly not for everyone...

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Integy had great products with terrible instructions... :blink:

It's certainly not for everyone...

Another way to pick up a lathe is second hand from a racer who's gone totally brushless. (Of course we had one bitd but sold it around 1990!) I got a nice Integy Xipp lathe with the original bit and a diamond bit for $40. I've cut many comms and the diamond bit still cuts like butter! :)

Integy directions are definitely low on the helpfulness scale.... but if you have a little mechanical know-how and patience they are easy to use. If you're in a rush and just want things done, a lathe is not for you!! :P

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Another way to pick up a lathe is second hand from a racer who's gone totally brushless. (Of course we had one bitd but sold it around 1990!) I got a nice Integy Xipp lathe with the original bit and a diamond bit for $40. I've cut many comms and the diamond bit still cuts like butter! :P

Integy directions are definitely low on the helpfulness scale.... but if you have a little mechanical know-how and patience they are easy to use. If you're in a rush and just want things done, a lathe is not for you!! :blink:

When you say Xipp lathe, can you tell me whether you mean this one ;-

http://www.integy.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_...21&p_catid=

...or this one ;-

http://www.modeltech.co.uk/catalog/product...d6319df941b761d

...as both have Xipp written on them.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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I have the one in the second link. The included carbide tip still works great after many many cuts, and the carbide V-blocks are very easy to use. It's also easy cause the included 55T lathe motor was built to run on your spare 7.2v packs...

The first like doesn't look like it includes a bit, and I don't think the drive motor can run on 7.2v (may be typical 4.8v). It does offer more range of different motors. I don't know the benefit of being able to cut left AND right, but it's probably one of those "personal preference" things...

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I found the "perfect" comm(utator) lathe for my own personal purposes ;-

It's the Integy "Perfect" Lathe 2, shown in the "1st link" above.

...reason being it cuts from size 130 to 550 arm(atures) because the second shaft support is on a sliding lathe bed which you can adjust. So I can renew a 380 motor on a Holiday Buggy or a Grasshopper, or a 540, or a 550 like on a Kyosho Turbo Scorpion etc.

http://www.atomicmods.com/Categories/Tutor...Rebuilding.aspx

They are listed as being 160 USD ;-

http://www.integy.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_...21&p_catid=

...and are unbelievably (for us in the UK) FOR ONCE (HOW REFRESHING!) THE EQUIVALENT PRICE in the UK!!! :rolleyes: - 80 quid. Makes a change! ;-

http://www.xtreme-rc.biz/store/index.php?m...products_id=510

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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The width on the super-lathe-3 is also adjustable. It just doesn't have a dial. You simply loosen the two bolts holding the second v-block and slide it in or out. I honestly can't say exactly how large/small a motor it will work on. If this interests you, I suggest you contact Integy to find out...

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the Reedy motor showed no brush bounce or horrid arcing or vibration and was very smooth right up to the top end. I was most impressed.
That's why they cost 56 new. :rolleyes:
Trouble is if I imported one to UK I would be VAT'ed (sales tax) for 17.5 per cent, plus 8 quid Royal Mail Clearance Fee...
Maybe, maybe not, that's the gamble. Although I would say just about everything I've bought from the US has needed duty paying, but I've yet to have anything stopped from RCMart(yet!)
and what do you do if they burn out? If I am spending significant money then I need a UK dealer that I can return the thing to if it burns up.
You are on your own there with the EZrun.

If you want a backup service then you need to buy your setup in the UK as no UK distributor is going to deal with parts you have not bought from them. Then again most people I know use a local electronics engineer as unless it is a warranty claim if you buy a Novak or Tekin system it has to go back to the US for repair, same with LRP and Nosram systems having to go back to germany, usual waiting time is 6-8 weeks. As you have chosen Corally style connectors it is very easy to reverse connect the battery and blow up the ESC, in fact saw someone do this at my club last week and destroyed a Novak GTB, it will cost him as much as the Ezrun system to get it repaired. (which is why a lot of the racers I know use Deans or Powerpoles)

And if you are buying a comm lathe don't bother with the diamond bits. They are overhyped, overpriced and makes no difference to how true the comm is. A diamond bit will give a more mirror like finish but you can break the diamond bit in so many ways (even just brushing the swarf off!) and you have to replace it. When a diamond bit is worn it still gives a good finish, but the cut won't be true. When a carbide bit is worn you will have a rough finish, but it wil still be round. Carbide bits can be sharpened with a diamond stone, mine gets touched up every so often to keep it's edge. I also use a cutting fluid to lubricate it and you will need a decent light oil for the vee blocks to stop any vibration.

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The 9T/35A combo is the one everybody has been raving about. Should be similar to a good 15T brushed motor. You can see several videos on Youtube to give an example. Just make sure to buy the smaller pinions that fits your Fire Dragon. The kit pinion is meant for the low-reving silver can that comes with the car. Start with the smallest pinion and work your way up (until the motor starts getting warm)...

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer..._type=&aq=f

BTW: The 13T is supposed to be similar to a or 19T motor (I forget which). A 17T is similar to a 27T race motor. I would stay away from the 17T unless your actually racing in a "stock" class that requires 17T brushless and/or 27T brushed

I have bought an EZ run 9T with esc.

I have seen 8T pinions for clods on ebay. Is this gonna be too small/big?

Thanks

29 YOK

2927753614_aef09cd7ed.jpg

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You'll have to check your manual to find out what pinions fit your car. I've never heard of an 8T pinion in any car...

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You'll have to check your manual to find out what pinions fit your car. I've never heard of an 8T pinion in any car...

and the mesh quality would be absolutely terrible!!!

Paul

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I have bought a 9T EzRun system for my Thunder Dragon (same chassis as your Fire Dragon) and have also bought the 13t and 14t pinions to go with the 15t it has as standard - it should hopefully be here this week so I will let you know what I find :)

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I have bought a 9T EzRun system for my Thunder Dragon (same chassis as your Fire Dragon) and have also bought the 13t and 14t pinions to go with the 15t it has as standard - it should hopefully be here this week so I will let you know what I find :)

Thanks Skip! How funny, our lives must be running in parallel! Just to give you a headz up, my lady has just got herself pregnant -Don't say I didn't warn you!!!!!!

Are the pinions you bought tamiya ones? I understand that a more powerful motor will have less torque and will need lower gearing...but will 13T/14T be low enough considering 15T is standard???

I don't know. but just wondered.

Also, I have just picked up a 2nd hand Thunder Dragon from ebay. I'm gonna run it as a basher and get a Thunder shot body for it.

Looking fwd to ur findings!

28 YOK :D

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Thanks Skip! How funny, our lives must be running in parallel! Just to give you a headz up, my lady has just got herself pregnant -Don't say I didn't warn you!!!!!!

Are the pinions you bought tamiya ones? I understand that a more powerful motor will have less torque and will need lower gearing...but will 13T/14T be low enough considering 15T is standard???

I don't know. but just wondered.

Also, I have just picked up a 2nd hand Thunder Dragon from ebay. I'm gonna run it as a basher and get a Thunder shot body for it.

Looking fwd to ur findings!

28 YOK :)

Arrrrgh I hope not! :) Well, not yet anyway! :D

They are indeed - Tamiya 50238 13t and 14t pinion kit.

Cool - they make great bashers - I have had mine for about 17 years and bashed it hard - and replaced very few parts! Hence thinking it can easily handle this brushless setup :)

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