Electronic Speed Controllers Vs Old School Ones....

[Malakite]

After recently running my newly acquired Monster Beetle which has the original speed controller & resister in it, I noticed that the battery did not last that long at all, and wondered if in fact it is because new electric speed controllers are so much more efficient that they save a lot of the battery power? Also do they make the cars any faster at all?

[markbt73]

They're way more efficient. With a mechanical speed control, the battery supplies 100% current at any speed, and the resistor just burns off some excess to slow the car down for the lower speeds. An electronic speed control actually throttles the current, and only uses as much power as is needed for the speed you want to go.

Some of them also have regenerative braking, which turns the motor into a generator when uyou hit the brakes, and pushes a little current back into the battery. Not much, but a tiny bit.

I suppose it's possible that a car with an ESC might be a hair faster than the same car with an old MSC, because the greater efficiency means more power gets to the motor, but you won't notice a huge jump in speed. YOu'll probably double your run time, though.

[Malakite]

They're way more efficient. With a mechanical speed control, the battery supplies 100% current at any speed, and the resistor just burns off some excess to slow the car down for the lower speeds. An electronic speed control actually throttles the current, and only uses as much power as is needed for the speed you want to go.

Some of them also have regenerative braking, which turns the motor into a generator when uyou hit the brakes, and pushes a little current back into the battery. Not much, but a tiny bit.

I suppose it's possible that a car with an ESC might be a hair faster than the same car with an old MSC, because the greater efficiency means more power gets to the motor, but you won't notice a huge jump in speed. YOu'll probably double your run time, though.

Thats a very interesting response, many thanks. Very interesting that the battery supplies 100% current at any speed! No wonder I used to get so annoyed when I was a kid and my cars would run out after about 5 mins (I kid you not - especially with the old batteries being like 1700mah tops!!)

[taliesin]

Yup, he said it well.

Mechanical Speed Controls must die.

[HereBeMonsters]

Mechanical Speed Controls must die.

MSCs are awesome.

For one thing, they work. They can stand getting thrashed about, submerged and bashed up. You can run any turn motor on them, and not have to remortgage your house. They're a doddle to set up, easy to troubleshoot if they go wrong, and easier to control between forwards and reverse.

I'm also not entirely sure that the the "draws 100% current at all times thing is true". If it were, then howcome I get far more runtime out of one when I'm using no more than half throttle as I walk through the woods with it, than I do when I jam the throttle on 100% out in the open?

[Malakite]

MSCs are awesome.

For one thing, they work. They can stand getting thrashed about, submerged and bashed up. You can run any turn motor on them, and not have to remortgage your house. They're a doddle to set up, easy to troubleshoot if they go wrong, and easier to control between forwards and reverse.

He has a point here

[KingPin]

Their not that great when the throttle servo glitches and your car decides to wander off and have a little adventure on its own......

Nah, give me ESC's everytime.

KingPin

[Palfertronic]

Their not that great when the throttle servo glitches and your car decides to wander off and have a little adventure on its own......

Nah, give me ESC's everytime.

KingPin

Well said!

MSC's were a means to an end, we would all have run ESC's back in the 80's if they were affordable!

If you want to be truly retro, run a MSC..for everyone else...just plug and play!

[Jonny Retro]

I like the extra control an ESC gives over 3-step MSCs, but I do miss the tomfoolerly-proof robustness of the MSC - J-turns (full speed reverse, lift off, full steering lock, full power & straighten up), wheelies (full power reverse, full power forwards), major overgearing, extra sub-c cells, etc - you could do that all day long with a Tamiya MSC ... well, unless your tyres, motor or gearbox let go

Do moves like that more than a coupe of times, and an ESC will, at best, sulk for a few minutes.

[Spetz83]

The MSC is also silent

I hate that whine noise after adding my ESC

[mymonsterbeetleisbroken]

MSC's are junk.

They for sure cannot run any turn motor. Many years ago, my midnight pumpkin's msc caught fire when running a 17 turn motor. (the plastic base of the msc melted and caught fire)

Secondly the harsh throttle control messes with old gearboxes.

No fail safe means you're car can go mad all by itself if radio signal is lost.

If a bit of dust or dirt gets between the contacts they do nothing.

No brakes, just reverse - easy to crash or spin out.

Now don't get me wrong, for a bit of vintage nostalgia they are great, for vintage shelf queens they are a must have. But, they've got no place with runners now days, when an esc is the same price as a round of drinks

[Singapore_959]

And the difference between older, or budget esc's versus the top of the line ones is also interesting.

I have run for while with mid range LRP and robbitronic escs and was always very happy with them. All unbelievably small to tiny, and functioning with essentially immediate set up and no problems.

Then I got an expensive lower turn race esc but honestly couldn't really see/feel much or any difference in performance.

Finally I got the TOP of the line race escs from robbitronic (cube) and KO Propo (or Volac in Tamiya speak). NOW, the difference is remarkable. I swear a 27turn stock motor feels/looks like it goes like the 17 turn was going with the average to quite good esc's. I genuinely could not believe how much more speed was gained using the top esc's. I makes a significant difference. Need to also add that I used these esc with much more expensive AWG11 guage (4mm thick) wires so some of the difference may be attributed to that. So yes, there is a large difference.

I like the look of MSC's in vintage Tamiya's, but after having a bec failure and a model run away, I will not use on again!

The resistor in the cage with the "Warning - Hot!" label does however suit some cars (boomerang, Fox eg.) to my mind, so I would be inclined to leave them in just for the look.

[loaded]

I like this discussion. You are all right and wrong!

Please don't anyone take offence :-)

It is kind of like discussing whether to put a hybrid engine in a 356, or whether it is worth installing a steam engine into the front of an Enzo :-)

Chalk and cheese.

Don't get me wrong, most of the arguments are right, but not relevant, in my opinion.

After all, I think a Monster Beetle should be run as god intended, MSC, stock motor (no options suggested from what I recall from my builds) pretty much stock and great fun. Same for the Wild Willy for that matter, who needs speed when it is twists turns and wheelies with a silver can?

If you want to go faster than the speed of sound (and there is nothing wrong with that) don't put a brushless in a vintage car, run something modern with modern electrics, just the job. If you want to dream of tank tops, the Common market and the dawn of radio control, and Dr Holly Goodhead (!) make your 934 stock and don't look back!

My point is that this is like Billie Jean King beating Bobby Riggs in his sixties (who, it must be admitted was a prat for saying what he did) and then assuming Billie Jean King was better at the sport etc. Or, to put it another way, whether Mohammed Ali would beat Mike Tyson. It isn't really the point, is it?

OK, well I have had my dose of exclamation marks and smiley's for one day (chalk it down to beer) and I will now sit back and hopefully not get totally panned :-) I think we can safely chalk some of this down to the beer not mixing with my new meds.

Paul.

PS : There is a certain frisson about not knowing if your car might lurch forward and skin your shins without warning.

[Singapore_959]

I like this discussion. You are all right and wrong!

Please don't anyone take offence :-)

It is kind of like discussing whether to put a hybrid engine in a 356, or whether it is worth installing a steam engine into the front of an Enzo :-)

Chalk and cheese.

Don't get me wrong, most of the arguments are right, but not relevant, in my opinion.

After all, I think a Monster Beetle should be run as god intended, MSC, stock motor (no options suggested from what I recall from my builds) pretty much stock and great fun. Same for the Wild Willy for that matter, who needs speed when it is twists turns and wheelies with a silver can?

If you want to go faster than the speed of sound (and there is nothing wrong with that) don't put a brushless in a vintage car, run something modern with modern electrics, just the job. If you want to dream of tank tops, the Common market and the dawn of radio control, and Dr Holly Goodhead (!) make your 934 stock and don't look back!

My point is that this is like Billie Jean King beating Bobby Riggs in his sixties (who, it must be admitted was a prat for saying what he did) and then assuming Billie Jean King was better at the sport etc. Or, to put it another way, whether Mohammed Ali would beat Mike Tyson. It isn't really the point, is it?

OK, well I have had my dose of exclamation marks and smiley's for one day (chalk it down to beer) and I will now sit back and hopefully not get totally panned :-) I think we can safely chalk some of this down to the beer not mixing with my new meds.

Paul.

PS : There is a certain frisson about not knowing if your car might lurch forward and skin your shins without warning.

WOAH! Next rounds on Paul!

Bobby who and steam what? Lol, I think I'd like to join you in the bar there after today's market numbers, and we can agree to race Wild Ones in Sundays snow (finally!)

Cheers! and save a Starop. for me

Long live the Volac! The Volac is killing my RX!

[Singapore_959]

I like this discussion. You are all right and wrong!

Please don't anyone take offence :-)

It is.....

My point is that...

PS : There is a certain frisson about not knowing if your car might lurch forward and skin your shins without warning.

And no, I'm not wrong!

[loaded]

I decided I needed a beer,

It has been a bad week. Firstly, one of my tenants flooded their apartment and 2 more below them (how is this even possible with gravity?). The basement is an inch deep in water even today. I need to find these people somewhere to live.

Then a distributor I deal with went bust with 12K worth of my stuff (paid for) in their stockroom. It has already been auctioned off and sold on again. Apparently this is legal (although it seems immoral).

There have been more problems, but it is just one of those weeks.

But what the heck, I thought I would pitch in with my bizarre opinions again :-)

P.

[Singapore_959]

I decided I needed a beer,

It has been a bad week. Firstly, one of my tenants flooded their apartment and 2 more below them (how is this even possible with gravity?). The basement is an inch deep in water even today. I need to find these people somewhere to live.

Then a distributor I deal with went bust with 12K worth of my stuff (paid for) in their stockroom. It has already been auctioned off and sold on again. Apparently this is legal (although it seems immoral).

There have been more problems, but it is just one of those weeks.

But what the heck, I thought I would pitch in with my bizarre opinions again :-)

P.

GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do an adventure drive down to me tomorrow night (night be fine with a little snow) and we can can have a forgot everything night and Sunday with alcoholllll and vintage Tamiya's in the cold

I was going to drive to England on Sunday but am putting that off now.

Flooding . XXXX! I remember that from Sydney and it sucks.

What week!!

[Malakite]

MSC's are junk.

Secondly the harsh throttle control messes with old gearboxes.

No brakes, just reverse - easy to crash or spin out.

Hi mate, can I ask, when you say its harsh on old gear boxes - do you mean that you can slam it in reverse straight away, or that its literally more harsh because of the acceleration somehow?

Also when you say no brakes, do ESC's literally use a 'braking' system, I though it just slams the neutral, but I guess thats still less harsh than slamming the wheels into reverse straight away right?

[mymonsterbeetleisbroken]

Hi mate, can I ask, when you say its harsh on old gear boxes - do you mean that you can slam it in reverse straight away, or that its literally more harsh because of the acceleration somehow?

Also when you say no brakes, do ESC's literally use a 'braking' system, I though it just slams the neutral, but I guess thats still less harsh than slamming the wheels into reverse straight away right?

Both the reverse slam and harsh 3 step speed increases will wear out an old gearbox faster. With an esc you've got such fine control of the throttle you can gently run an older car instead of thrashing it with the msc.

An esc will brake the car using the motor. If the car is 4wd, you've kind of got a 4 wheel braking system. Open diff gears will of course send all that braking force to any wheel off the ground, which isn't ideal, but it's better than nothing

The esc simply takes the energy generated by the rolling motor, and directs it back to the motor, against the direction it's turning.

[Malakite]

Both the reverse slam and harsh 3 step speed increases will wear out an old gearbox faster. With an esc you've got such fine control of the throttle you can gently run an older car instead of thrashing it with the msc.

An esc will brake the car using the motor. If the car is 4wd, you've kind of got a 4 wheel braking system. Open diff gears will of course send all that braking force to any wheel off the ground, which isn't ideal, but it's better than nothing

The esc simply takes the energy generated by the rolling motor, and directs it back to the motor, against the direction it's turning.

Hi, so do you mean that I should slowly increase the speed/throttle in order to save an old gearbox, as if I just stick it straight info full speed, there is no difference from an ESC to an old school manual one...is there?!!

[94eg!]

When you get into top-level racing ESCs, you are able to adjust the frequency at which the ESC switches. This is part of what causes a 27T motor to behave like a 17T. Lower frequencies give more punch, but can quickly destory hotter motors so care must be taken when adjusting. The other, more important factor, is internal resitance. The lower the internal resitance, the more power gets to the motor without making heat. This allows the motor to run stronger and the ESC to run cooler.

Bigger wire allows for lower internal resitance as well as less voltage drop. The lengths of wire and number of connectors plays a big part as well. For racing I direct solder my batteries and motor. I also run one single piece of wire from the battery positive to the motor positive. I simply cut of a bit of insulation in the middle of that wire to solder it to the ESC. EFFIECENT!!!

Here's a pic for reference:

BTW: If your running your 27T motor on a Volac (Ko Propo VFS-1) ESC with the stock frequency profile, your REALLY missing out. Stock frequency is set high to be safe on Mod motors, so it certainly isn't optimised. If you get the handheld programer or PC-hookup, you can set the frequency to one of the recommended "stock" profiles, and you will have even more punch all around...

PS: MSCs are for the shelf (or the trash). I'm running a borrowed 1980's Tekin Sport that's been in countless cars in my old Vanquish, as well as a pool, and it still beats the pants off the old **** MSC. I burnt through 3 resistors with a 16T in my vanquish before I gave up on that stupid thing...

Driving a MSC is for kids who can't afford anything else (or crazy vintage die-hards)...

[loaded]

Miao :-)

[HereBeMonsters]

Took out two cars for a bash at the weekend - Hornet with an MSC, and Lunch Box with an ESC. Guess which one broke?

[redzone]

if you're having reliability problems with an esc, you're doing something wrong, or its a poor quality cheapo unit. no ifs or buts.

[HereBeMonsters]

if you're having reliability problems with an esc, you're doing something wrong, or its a poor quality cheapo unit. no ifs or buts.

Driving it through puddles.