M03m Vs Ff01

[Spetz83 0]

Hey guys,

I am thinking of buying a scale FWD RC car

And, I was thinking of either getting an FF01 and buying a Integra Type R shell (DC5R, the Beams Integra Tamiya) or a M03M and using a Civic Type R shell.

Now, which chassis is quicker/handles better?

Take into account that I would upgrade to oil shocks on the M03M

I noticed there are heaps more parts for the M03 chassis available and the car itself is cheaper to buy

Are the wheelbases adjustable on either car?

Also, is there a M03 chassis where the motor is in front of the front wheels rather than behind them?

Any advice is appreciated

[Acto-Tuned 6]

If you put TL01 suspension and the FF02 extension on a M03 chassis you get a FF02.

I prefer the chassis layout of the FF01 but I don't know for sure if it performs better than the FF02. The FF01 comes with a ball diff but you could buy one for the FF02.

The best performance fwd rc car is probably the Yokomo YR F2 but those are hard to find and parts would be even harder to find. http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.a...4386&id=470

Are the wheelbases adjustable on either car?

The M03/FF02 uses an extension piece between the front and the rear chassis module so your choices are 210mm,225mm,239mm or 259mm wheelbase.

On the FF01 you can reverse the rear suspension arms for a shorter wheelbase (used on the Clio)

Also, is there a M03 chassis where the motor is in front of the front wheels rather than behind them?

No

[Spetz83 0]

I heard the FF01 is better than the FF02

So any M03 kit can be made into a short, medium and long wheelbase? ie, I can buy a Mini and just build it different for a 225mm wheelbase to run a Civic shell?

How about traction? Which car wins in a drag race between FF01 and M03? The FF has more weight over the front wheels I guess but the M might be lighter?

Also, I read that the suspension on the M isnt adjustable (camber etc)

Is there a hop up to make it adjustable or is it always set?

And, how are the FWD cars to drive? I like the realism but is it one of those things that gets boring quickly?

[Butler 338]

I love my M03, is great fun.

My only issue is that it, obviously, can't compete with a 4wd car on anything other than dry tarmac or carpet. Which is why I am selling mine soon to go 4wd because my dad and brother have 4wd.

Another issue I have is that its a low tech chassis. Its not adjustable and they is a lot of play in it all. I do fancy something a bit more. I think I have taken my M03 as far is it will go.

The realism is good. The lift off oversteer is brilliant fun, they are giggle to drive. You can get them to perform on gravel too, just a lot of wheel spin.

Heres mine.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D7qFmv35-2Q

I guess an FF chassis will be faster as the wider track gives it more grip and stablity. But I doubt its as fun.

[HereBeMonsters 9]

A lot of good info on Minis here: http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=47011

M03s are ace...

[Spetz83 0]

How is the traction with good tyres and tarmac surface?

I've taken the rear driveshafts out of my TB01 to drive as a FWD but traction was pretty poor.

How much are you selling your M03 for and what does it have on it?

I'm just worried I will tire of the FWD chassis quickly... and thinking maybe getting a Pajero instead of a FWD car

[Butler 338]

I run 1/10 sized wheels on my swift, as the mini ones look too small, unless you run the mini shell.

The traction is fine, especially with Tamiya soft slicks.

I need to decide what I will sell and what I keep for the new car. I'll let you know.

[rc-martin 218]

As Harry Hill would say.

So, which is the better car? M03m or FF01? There's only one way to find out.

FIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!

[Lemming 48]

Hmm...

Got the following here:

M03 Mini - Standard plus rear tow-in, oil filled dampers, bearings, ESC and Sport Tuned motor

M03M BMW Mini - Standard plus bearings and ESC

FF02 Pug - Standard plus ESC

FF01 Project FTO - Currently standard LWB setup, full bearings and Novak SS5800 brushless

Will try to get all of them out at the next Cider bashers meet and see what they are like side by side, but my thoughts from driving them so far...

M03 - Tail happy in tight turns / under braking - real issues with traction

M03M - More stable than the short wheelbase - still lacking in grip

FF02 - Still in unused condition - not driven at all yet

FF01 - Very stable in corners compared to M series, more grip than the M series - Best of the 3 tested for cornering and getting the power down

Cheers

Steve

[Origineelreclamebord 45]

I also heard the FF01 handles better. Considering the fact that the weight balance is more to the front it should be more stable and should have more traction on the front wheels. It probably even has a lower weight balance because the FF02 has the servo above the motor...

[Spetz83 0]

Lemming please make sure to post back once you tested all of them

But from what it seems, the FF01 is the best choice

I thought the FF02 might be better balanced but have a harder time putting the power down but I guess I was wrong

How are these FWD cars and full lock driveshaft clicking? As my TB01 front driveshafts click (even the universal ones) on full lock + throttle

Do the FWD cars experience the same problem?

[kontemax 1725]

Go for FF01. They are better and many parts compatibles with TA01/02/03.

You can mount frp or carbon chassis and suspension geometry is better. Absolutelly needed CVD or Universals joints at front.

At the end FF02 is most economical than FF01.

Just one tip for you:

If you wanna change car performances in cornering and bends (understeering/oversteering) work on the rear suspension and not on front ones.

Max

[Spetz83 0]

The only problem is that the FF01 is so hard to find + it costs roughly double of the M03M

And parts are hard to find

I'll keep a lookout on ebay hopefully a good deal pops up

I just hope they are fun to drive.

Is it more fun than the TB01 I have?

[Butler 338]

Just got back for a day bashing my M03 with a couple of 4wd cars. It IS a fun car. My M03 is a bit too quick mind and suffers from being narrower than FF or other 4wd chassis.

Go for the swift and fit bearings, 1/10wheels, oil shocks and a EZRun brushless. Its mental. Needs tamiya super slicks and its still not tamed.

[Spetz83 0]

Brushless?

Isn't the standard motor fast enough? ie, isn't it just all wheelspin??

Can you get adjustable upper arms for camber adjustability?

[irenL 0]

an FF01 can handle 10 turn motor as long as the grip permits. The rule of thumb is, go for the lowest end ratio. As with any FWD chassis, you massage it into and out of corner, no abrupt throttle allowed, though swapping parts here and there will help. I've made threads pertaining to mine and how I run it against AWDs in spec motor class, look it up and see if that's what you're looking for. For what it's worth, it's rather competitive still.

an M03M is a decent fun chassis, but throw in a 9 turn motor and a locked diff and it become a very aggressive monster.

[HereBeMonsters 9]

If you're going to be racing indoors a high-spec (brushed or brushless) is just pointless. You'll understeer all over the place, wear out tyres and generally drive like a TVR on a track day*. If you have to have high power (and to be honest, most racing rules don't allow it anyway), you can get a ball diff which is tunable to put the power down coming out of the corners.

*If you're a regular at track days, you'll know what I mean. Fast in a straight line, tiptoe around the corners, then give up after ten laps as something's broken.

[Spetz83 0]

With a ball diff can you set it loose so that it slips (sort of like a slipper clutch) so that power comes on smoother etc for traction?

Iren, what I meant was that, from lets say 0-30km/h does it matter if you have a silver can or some crazy brushless? Seeing as the silver can still has enough power to spin the wheels, would more power get it accelerating faster or just more wheelspin?

[Lemming 48]

Always makes me smile when I see Brushless = Mentally fast. The Novak SS5800 is quite an old brushless setup and nowhere near as fast or powerful as many of the modern ones.

I read the initial post thinking that you were after a correctly powered car (as I am for my FTO project - fwd and motor out front if possible) rather than a car for club racing. Mine is not set-up for racing on a track, but for bashing in large areas. A standard silver can is just too slow for the large areas we frequent.

Geared correctly, a brushless setup simply removes the issues of comm skimming and brush replacing with an increase in speed. Also, in the case of the Novak SS5800, it's a sensored setup - which equals superbly smooth throttle control - which results in wonderfully balanced driving (when not being a looney muppet at bash meets).

Bear in mind that most brushless setups can be tailored. An example is reducing the max RPM on mine from 40,000+ down to 27,000 (ish) which is about a BZ/TZ/RZ motor pace (23 turns). Not particularly fast at all when you consider the precious posts about the car handling down to a 10 turn motor. Just means that you have the extra power for larger areas (once initial traction is attained).

At 40k RPM it is blinking fast, but then again I (rarely) use it in that mode for bashing in large open spaces such as car parks and have yet to have any gearbox / diff / out-drive issues. It helps that the car is fully ball-raced and that the 2wd system is very low drag compared to a 4wd car.

All depends on your skills as to what speed you want out of a car, but that is the same regardless of 2wd, 4wd, on-road, off-road etc. Also, remembering basic maintenance on the car (I forgot to re-check my steering on the top Force before the last meet - oops) makes a big difference to reliability and avoiding damage.

I have never* (as of yet - touch wood) broken any of my fast vehicles due to pace or ability - which have included two 35mph plus Top Forces, Brushless Jugg, FF01 etc. That includes multiple bashes and race meets over several years, so I guess the breakages issue is more in regard to poorly set-up cars or poor driving. * NB I have broken the E-Maxx previously, but that was down to a conflict of crystals (now avoided with a peg board at our bashes).

If you are using it for fun and bashing then a sensible brushless setup with correct gearing results in no motor maintenance, and therefore more reliable fun for the average enthusiast.

Steve

[Spetz83 0]

So, at a track you're saying your brushless engine would be no quicker than a silver can?

You own an FTO? Those cars are nice. I have seen an Evo 8 powered AWD (including yaw control) widebody FTO here in a car show. I creamed my pants.

Then I saw an immaculate white Version R with a twin turbo MIVEC 6A12...

Then Evo X's...

It was nice

[Lemming 48]

So, at a track you're saying your brushless engine would be no quicker than a silver can?

You own an FTO? Those cars are nice. I have seen an Evo 8 powered AWD (including yaw control) widebody FTO here in a car show. I creamed my pants.

Then I saw an immaculate white Version R with a twin turbo MIVEC 6A12...

Then Evo X's...

It was nice

A standard motor will put out about 17,000rpm max (mod/tuned ones can be quite a bit faster). You can run the RZ/TZ/BZ Tamiya motors on standard gearing (due to the increased torque) so could be up to 30 - 40% quicker than a bog stock silver can. Mine in the sports mode would be about the same pace really as these 23t motors, but still easy to control and well within what the car can take.

Currently my car is set-up more for stability in a straight line rather than turn-in or corner exit. Causes some understeer (front washes wide) exiting a corner, but leads to more stability under acceleration in a straight line. Did manage to improve the turn-in, but resulted in slightly more twitchy controls at speed. Not really played with it much more for handling as of yet - it's more of a long-term project (over 2 years to date).

I used to own a black FTO which was chipped. My favourite car of the ones I've owned by far. It wasn't massively powerful, but it just stuck to the road like glue - wonderful for the run from where I live (South Wales) to North Wales. A470, A483 etc up to the A5. Fantastic driving roads...

That's the main reason I have the FF01 and the FF02 - to recreate an FTO (bodyshell is being created by Keith at Kamtec) as per the one I owned, with the correct drivetrain. FF01 is the perfect set-up for this, but expensive / difficult for parts. FF02 is cheap for parts but the motor is behind the wheels, so will be used as the general runner.

I'm always hoping to get another FTO in the distant future (got a baby now, so long way off yet). Would love a standard looking version, in black (or maybe white for a change) with the manual box (mine was the tiptronic version). A 4wd or turbo variant does sound superb though!

All the best

Steve

[irenL 0]

With a ball diff can you set it loose so that it slips (sort of like a slipper clutch) so that power comes on smoother etc for traction?

Iren, what I meant was that, from lets say 0-30km/h does it matter if you have a silver can or some crazy brushless? Seeing as the silver can still has enough power to spin the wheels, would more power get it accelerating faster or just more wheelspin?

well, if you yank the throttle, any motor will produce a wheelspin in any FWD car, unless the tyre grip is greater.

0-30km/h actual RC speed? it'll do a wheelspin for the first 1 foot. Some drivers would set the rear end with medium springs to negate this, and run the rear toe-in. I run medium springs in the back with 0 rear toe (TL01 rear uprights), and 3 degrees of rear negative camber. Tamiya suggest soft springs in the back. Having the CEN wide span front arm setup helps.

thing is, by the time you got the ball diff set loose, it'll be too loose and simply burn it out. Set it "just nice".

For the M03/FF02 I've run locked diff with no problem other than accelerated drive cup wear. Front end is dead planted and very responsive. Even toed in in the rear the rear end still darts around. The main reason I got a spool up front is because I'm too lazy to split the chassis up after every run and re-adjust the tension. AW grease in gear diff will last longer still, but will still soften as the heat proceeds.

[Spetz83 0]

All this talk just makes me want an FF01 more

From what I gather, in theory the FF02 should handle better and change direction better, but the FF01 should have more forward traction.

However in RC scale, I think the added weight on the front of the FF01 helps in both handling and traction. Even though normally it's hard for the chassis to more something in front of the front axles when changing direction compared to behind the front axles

I have a lancer with a 6A12 engine in it. Blueprinted, balanced, hand assembled, ported, raised compression, intake header exhaust, ECU and I bought a Adelia close ratio kit for the manual box + cusco 1.5 way LSD

Those motors are a gem. Once you free them up they just love to rev

Iren, you're saying that a FF01 has so much traction that it'll only wheelspin the first foot if throttled to the max from a standstill?? With a silver can + good tyres?

[irenL 0]

All this talk just makes me want an FF01 more

From what I gather, in theory the FF02 should handle better and change direction better, but the FF01 should have more forward traction.

However in RC scale, I think the added weight on the front of the FF01 helps in both handling and traction. Even though normally it's hard for the chassis to more something in front of the front axles when changing direction compared to behind the front axles

I have a lancer with a 6A12 engine in it. Blueprinted, balanced, hand assembled, ported, raised compression, intake header exhaust, ECU and I bought a Adelia close ratio kit for the manual box + cusco 1.5 way LSD

Those motors are a gem. Once you free them up they just love to rev

Iren, you're saying that a FF01 has so much traction that it'll only wheelspin the first foot if throttled to the max from a standstill?? With a silver can + good tyres?

How good a tyre are you talking about? I'm usually running either 40 shore foams or 32R rubber up front.

There is a reason I'm running stiffer springs in the rear end.

There used to be a japanese company that did a slipper (TCD) setup for both the TA01/02 and FF01 series.

Others with their outlaw spec M03 has been running nitro left over 37 and 35 shore foamies on the front end.

I'm not an avid driver, but if I can wrung the FF01 mid-field in a pack of X-rays and the like, then that should tell you something about the chassis itself.

[Butler 338]

Brushless?

Isn't the standard motor fast enough? ie, isn't it just all wheelspin??

Can you get adjustable upper arms for camber adjustability?

Its down to the track. We have a lot of room. A standard can is faster enough on a twisty track.

You can't get adjustable upper arms, but I made some. You don't need them really for tarmac use if you lower the car because it naturally gives you a bit of negative. My arms are for my off road M03 which I rasied up.

What are you after? Fun or speed. The FF chassis will always be faster because its wider and longer.

My brushless M03 is a monster, which is why I am looking at 4wd. I do fear the 4wd will be, although faster, less fun.