Super Stock Rz/tz Motor In Hotshot?

[hammond 0]

I wonder how will a re release tamiya hotshot handle the super stock motor type RZ? will the transmission hold?

and what are best of the RZ or TZ?

if I buy one of these, what esc do I need?

[lucasan 28]

I wonder how will a re release tamiya hotshot handle the super stock motor type RZ? will the transmission hold?

and what are best of the RZ or TZ?

if I buy one of these, what esc do I need?

I put an rz motor in my rere hotshot and I didn't see juch of a difference between that and the dirt tuned. I have full bearings too, but I guess a little friction reduction would be barely perceptible.

[hammond 0]

okay.

but compared to the technigold motor it will be better.

what is the most teeth you can get for the motor? 17 or 19?

[Striker01 0]

TTT- I didn't wanna start off a new thread relating to the same question so I'm brining this one up from the dead. Can I run the super stock motors on my hotshot and will I have to change the ESC?

[TA-Mark 195]

The TEU-101BK or TEU-104BK ESCs are rated for 27 turn motors. The TZ/RZ/BZ motors are 23 turn, so not recommended to run on the kit ESCs. Tamiya's recommended ESC for the 23 turn motors is the TEU-302BK ESC, or there are alternatives from other manufacturers.

Using a 23 turn motor would also require a change of pinion. 1 or maybe 2 less teeth than the kit pinion because of the change of motor rpm (540S @ ~16,000rpm vs Dirt Tuned 27 turn @ ~18,000rpm vs RZ/TZ 23 turn @ ~23,500rpm).

The Hotshot can use from 13T to 17T pinions. The pinion pitch is 0.8 module, but a steel 32dp pinion makes an ideal, longer lasting replacement. Without changing the gear ratio to match the hotter motor you will see little to no performance increase, and if anything, everything just runs hotter (ESC, motor, battery). The gear ratio you choose also depends on where you run the model. High load areas like lawn or soft sand need a smaller pinion, where as hard dirt or seal surface running can use a taller ratio. Pinions are cheap (~$2.50 each), so I'd get a set of them so you always have the right ratio.

[mike_o 35]

...what are best of the RZ or TZ?...

The specs are very identical. I bought both and can't really tell the difference. (As usual) I run them with a TEU-101 in a 2WD buggy with no problems. I also ran one in a DF03 Dark Impact (4WD buggy) briefly, also with no problems.

[Striker01 0]

Not to sound completely lazy, but in a nut shell, which motor can I run with the stock ESC that will provide me with some more speed and fun? Right now I'm running the 15T that came with the kit.

[TA-Mark 195]

Not to sound completely lazy, but in a nut shell, which motor can I run with the stock ESC that will provide me with some more speed and fun? Right now I'm running the 15T that came with the kit.

I think you have turns and tooth counts mixed up. I hope this clarifies this for you:

15T (teeth) is the pinion. The kit motor is 27T (turns). It is recommended you use only 27T (turn) motors with the TEU-101BK ESC.

Optional motors with the standard TEU-101BK ESC are: Tamiya Sport Tuned (black sealed type can), Tamiya 27T Dirt Tuned (rebuildable endbell motor - designed for offroad buggy use); Tamiya 25T GT Tuned (really is meant for touring cars with the kit ESC).

Some have run the 23T (turn) Super Stock motors (RZ/TZ/BZ) on the TEU-101BK with success, but take note, this is out of specification and it may kill the ESC. 4WD buggys do add more load to the motor over a 2WD buggy. If you were fitting a 23T (turn) motor (with the recommended TEU-302BK ESC as I'd already mentioned), you would then need to change the pinion gear (standard 15T) to a 14T or 13T (teeth) pinion.

The Tamiya 27T (turn) Dirt Tuned motor is approx 2000rpm higher than the kit silvercan, and about 1/3rd more torque (ideal for more power when running offroad). the downside to fitting a hotter motor is the runtime will decrease. This motor would still require the kit 15T (teeth) pinion.

[Striker01 0]

I think you have turns and tooth counts mixed up. I hope this clarifies this for you:

15T (teeth) is the pinion. The kit motor is 27T (turns). It is recommended you use only 27T (turn) motors with the TEU-101BK ESC.

Optional motors with the standard TEU-101BK ESC are: Tamiya Sport Tuned (black sealed type can), Tamiya 27T Dirt Tuned (rebuildable endbell motor - designed for offroad buggy use); Tamiya 25T GT Tuned (really is meant for touring cars with the kit ESC).

Some have run the 23T (turn) Super Stock motors (RZ/TZ/BZ) on the TEU-101BK with success, but take note, this is out of specification and it may kill the ESC. 4WD buggys do add more load to the motor over a 2WD buggy. If you were fitting a 23T (turn) motor (with the recommended TEU-302BK ESC as I'd already mentioned), you would then need to change the pinion gear (standard 15T) to a 14T or 13T (teeth) pinion.

The Tamiya 27T (turn) Dirt Tuned motor is approx 2000rpm higher than the kit silvercan, and about 1/3rd more torque (ideal for more power when running offroad). the downside to fitting a hotter motor is the runtime will decrease. This motor would still require the kit 15T (teeth) pinion.

Yep I got it, the pinion and motor turns I understand now. You answered my question for motor choices with the stock ESC. Tamiya Sport Tuned and the Dirt Tuned. Now I've gotta decide between the two.

[94eg! 834]

I run an original Hotshot with a super-stock RZ, 13T pinion and 101BK ESC. Car runs amazingly well. Only reached the thermal protection on the ESC when I actually raced it with a lipo (on-road), and when bashing w/ NiMH in 110+f weather. Otherwise this setup has been superb.

[Striker01 0]

I run an original Hotshot with a super-stock RZ, 13T pinion and 101BK ESC. Car runs amazingly well. Only reached the thermal protection on the ESC when I actually raced it with a lipo (on-road), and when bashing w/ NiMH in 110+f weather. Otherwise this setup has been superb.

Good to hear man. I'm not sure which way to go just yet as I finished building the car only a two weeks ago. I would like to see what I can do about getting me a LiPo and a charger for it. With the cold weather and me running it outside, I'm lucky to get 10 mins out of the tower hobbies batt.

[94eg! 834]

Good to hear man. I'm not sure which way to go just yet as I finished building the car only a two weeks ago. I would like to see what I can do about getting me a LiPo and a charger for it. With the cold weather and me running it outside, I'm lucky to get 10 mins out of the tower hobbies batt.

Just remember, lipo allows more the motor to pull more continuous current. That means more heat in the electronics. In cold weather it shouldn't really matter.

[Jason1145 3986]

On ‎10‎/‎01‎/‎2011 at 8:58 PM, TA-Mark said:

The TEU-101BK or TEU-104BK ESCs are rated for 27 turn motors. The TZ/RZ/BZ motors are 23 turn, so not recommended to run on the kit ESCs. Tamiya's recommended ESC for the 23 turn motors is the TEU-302BK ESC, or there are alternatives from other manufacturers.

Using a 23 turn motor would also require a change of pinion. 1 or maybe 2 less teeth than the kit pinion because of the change of motor rpm (540S @ ~16,000rpm vs Dirt Tuned 27 turn @ ~18,000rpm vs RZ/TZ 23 turn @ ~23,500rpm).

The Hotshot can use from 13T to 17T pinions. The pinion pitch is 0.8 module, but a steel 32dp pinion makes an ideal, longer lasting replacement. Without changing the gear ratio to match the hotter motor you will see little to no performance increase, and if anything, everything just runs hotter (ESC, motor, battery). The gear ratio you choose also depends on where you run the model. High load areas like lawn or soft sand need a smaller pinion, where as hard dirt or seal surface running can use a taller ratio. Pinions are cheap (~$2.50 each), so I'd get a set of them so you always have the right ratio.

Dragging an old thread up here but wanted to ask about the above.

I was going to buy a RZ Motor 23t to run in my M03 on the stock TEU101BK.....  I know it is out of spec for the esc and I might take that chance on it as others have had success..... but I was just planning on dropping this faster motor in to replace the silver can but leave the gearing on the highest 20t pinion. (M03 can take 16/18/20)

In my mind, putting the faster motor in will make it faster on the same 20t pinion, but the advice above says to change the gear ratio to match the hotter motor or I will see little to no performance increase?

So am I wrong.... will it not be any faster?

[t3garett 268]

It will be a bit faster but no where near what it can be with the proper gearing but the main problem is the motor will run way too hot, you ll burn the comm and brushes. I run an RZ in my m05 pro with a 1060hobbywing lipo and a 16 tooth pinion. It fast and runs quite mild temps. 

[Jason1145 3986]

I still can't get my head around why that is the case lol...... if everything is the same..... changing to a faster motor should make the car go proportionally faster..... but you are saying I would need the appropriate gearing to make the most out of it.. you mean get more top speed... and by appropriate gearing you mean drop down a pinion from 20t to either 18t or 16t?

I am thinking I will just buy this RZ motor and then do some real world speed runs on a 20t, 18t and 16t pinion.... what would I expect those results to show?

[Prescient 671]

Torque, rpm and heat re gearing. You want to maximise efficiency and the motors have sufficient torque to run the bigger pinions. A small pinion and they spin out and get too hot. 

The Supertock motors rpm are actually pretty high revving at 26500-27500 (minus circa 20% on efficiency calcs) iirc with the BZ/TZ having slightly higher torque, lower rpm and stand up brushes. RZ has the slightly higher rpm and lower torque with lay down brushes.

They are more comparrable to 19T-15T mod motors from other quality brands and certainly kick things like the firebolts into touch. 

You can cut the timing tab on them to have fully adjustable and reversible timing. Great in a clod buster. 

I have Super Stock BZs that are now 11 years old and still run as if they were almost new. 

Good thing too as no chance of getting comm skims done anywhere near me any more though. 

 

[Jason1145 3986]

2 hours ago, Prescient said:

Torque, rpm and heat re gearing. You want to maximise efficiency and the motors have sufficient torque to run the bigger pinions. A small pinion and they spin out and get too hot. 

The Supertock motors rpm are actually pretty high revving at 26500-27500 (minus circa 20% on efficiency calcs) iirc with the BZ/TZ having slightly higher torque, lower rpm and stand up brushes. RZ has the slightly higher rpm and lower torque with lay down brushes. 

 

Ahhh so I can see how the smaller pinion will allow the motor to spin out... but I thought a motor would only spin to it's max RPM's and it would be happy there as it is designed for that? Are you saying when they quote the best efficiency for a motor at 27,000 RPM that it can actually spin faster than that and then it is spinning out.. working too hard and getting too hot etc?

I thought a motor listed at 27,000 RPM could only go 27,000RPM at the correct supplied voltage (7.2V in this case).... and if you put a 3s lipo through it then it will obviously spin a lot faster over it's 27,000 RPM causing all these unwanted issues.

[Prescient 671]

27k X 0.8 (80%) = 21.6k at best efficiency @ 7.2volts or in simple terms (very over simplistic as brushed motors are governed by their max rpm rather brushless by KV so rpm stated limited by volts not motor rpm) the equivalent of 3000kv at best efficiency or 3750kv at max rpm. Higher volts or fresh charged pack will make it rev faster than spec as would a 3s lipo. 

I can't remember the exact figures on these motors as don't have boxes in front of me at the moment. 

Won't rev faster due to gearing but with too small a pinion it reaches closer to full rpm at best efficiency which over drives the motor. If you run a motor on full throttle out of a car you will find it starts to get pretty hot as some load is required to reduce/inhibit max rpm.

I am over simplifying this tbh.

[Jason1145 3986]

That makes sense..... don't run a motor at max RPM but try to run it at it's best efficiency (I didn't know about the 0.8 rule) .... so the RZ below

Super Stock Motor RZ

• 23 turn motor
• Usable voltage: 7.2V
• R.P.M. at best efficiency: 27,500rpm (7.2V)
• Torque at best efficiency: 500g-cm (7.2V)
• JRM certified motor

Would it's max RPM then be 27,500 x 1.2 = 33,000 RPM.

How would I know to get it running at 27,500 RPM then?

 

[Prescient 671]

24 minutes ago, Jason1145 said:

That makes sense..... don't run a motor at max RPM but try to run it at it's best efficiency (I didn't know about the 0.8 rule) .... so the RZ below

Super Stock Motor RZ

• 23 turn motor
• Usable voltage: 7.2V
• R.P.M. at best efficiency: 27,500rpm (7.2V)
• Torque at best efficiency: 500g-cm (7.2V)
• JRM certified motor

Would it's max RPM then be 27,500 x 1.2 = 33,000 RPM.

How would I know to get it running at 27,500 RPM then?

 

The max rpm ie 27500 (RZ) or 26500 (TZ/BZ) as per the BZ box pic below is stated at no load. The BZ motors don't state efficiency on the paperwork I have here, although 20% was an example but I am sure it is in the 78%-85% region. Hence yes unloaded or with a small pinion it spins up over its rated rpm / torque curves and over heats or doesn't have the torque it should.

However the Sport Tuned gives its rpm at best efficiency (18,300) not as no load. 

The RZ/TZ do state efficiency and show it in one axis on the power graph on the back. The Sports Tuned has a power graph but not stating efficiency in the axis. BZ/TZ are essentially the same motor but BZ has dust cover and states torque in mN-m whereas the TZ in gf-cm to differentiate.

Raw rpm isn't that helpful a metric either of motor performance as without sufficient torque you can never achieve the correct performance, hence why for example 9T brushed mod motors can perform worse in off road buggies than the BZ does. Great in touring car though as gearing, wheels and weight enable the mod motor to work as intended.

In many ways brushless negates the issues above but gearing and heat is still a major consideration, hence preference for lower KV, high torque, correct gearing, more volts for off-road.

[Jason1145 3986]

Its a bit clearer but maybe I'm just over complicating it... the bottom line is I had a spare 17t motor that my TEU104BK isn't rated to handle... it's limited to 23t and that's why I found this 23t RZ motor.... and it's so nice looking in red too!

my plans going forward now are to buy a cheap esc which can handle lower turns and pair it to my 17t motor.... then  buy a Super Stock RZ ( @Prescient you want to sell a used one?) motor to mate with my TEU104BK... happy days.

 

[Prescient 671]

@Jason1145out of interest what 17T motor. You may find it doesn't perform as well as the SS, despite the turn ratings.

My Orion Method Pro 15T underperforms compared to the BZ in all but the perfectly geared touring car.

[Jason1145 3986]

It's a used Etronix 17t Sport Tuned Motor (about £20 new on Ebay)

 

I was going to pair it up with this bargain bucket ESC rated down to 12t 

[Prescient 671]

@Jason1145oh :/ 

Those cheap brushed motors are cheap for a reason. 

Only downside with the Super Stock motors is the price. Into speed passion or trackstar brushless prices, so unless brushed / Tamiya brand (both very valid reasons and why I still use them) is a must then there isn't much point to buying them. 

Upkeep on modded motors isn't really worth it these days.

[Rb4276 803]

I have both the tamiya bz and rz, both are basically the same as stated. Imcam say the bz seems to have more torque. Those cheap low turn motors which i have a bunch of such as hpi firebolt 15t, absima 15t and yeah racing 13t are comparable to the 23t superstocks. Actually only the yeah racing is as fast or faster as the tamiya if geared right but still overheats. The reedy radon 17t might be faster then the superstocks but none have the torque as the superstocks.