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agentsmith23

Battery And Motor Very Hot!

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So I have a new 3300mah NiMH battery from radioshack and the motor is one I got from a parts car, it is a DuraTrax Proline Wet Magnet Modified Motor 4WD/Off Road. These are being powered through a Tekin 410S ESC which barely gets warm but the battery and motor get so hot I can hardly touch either one after running them, I have only run the battery about 4 times and this last time was the best run I have had out of it yet and it smelled funny after the run and I noticed the sticker label on it was kind of distorted/bubbled up a bit. I know heat is bad for a NiMh battery during the charge but is it bad also during the discharge(it has only been slightly warm when charging 2.5a max)? I have taken the motor apart and the armature looks pretty much perfect, the can and end bell appears to have bearings instead of bushings what should I use to lubricate the bearings? I have also tried reducing the timing, the can has markings on it going from -6 degrees to +6 degrees. I have only tried to go with negative timing to reduce heat and I have only stayed within the markings on the can and -6 degrees seemed to make it run hotter than at 0. Is it possible to ruin a motor by adjusting the timing? Before I touched the timing I read quite a few articles about it and none of them mentioned anything about creating more heat by reducing timing so I was a little confused when this happened. Is there any way to test the armature to see if there is any damage to it?

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Dave

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My guess is that your gearing is to high. Try running a smaller pinion or larger spur. Incorrect gearing is the number on cause of overheated motor and battery. The motor will always try to reach it's rated rpm and until it does it will draw huge current from the battery and generate alot of heat. Gearing to high will make it constantly work extremely hard and you get the results your seeing.

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My guess is that your gearing is to high. Try running a smaller pinion or larger spur. Incorrect gearing is the number on cause of overheated motor and battery. The motor will always try to reach it's rated rpm and until it does it will draw huge current from the battery and generate alot of heat. Gearing to high will make it constantly work extremely hard and you get the results your seeing.

Couldent agree more cubsfan, sounds like the gearing is wrong, you should Never change the timing below 0 degrees. All this will do is retard the motor and cause loads of heat, go too far and the motor will run backwards so I'm sure you can see why this is not a good idea. Try to return too stock gearing and make adjustments from there, also work out if you want downright speed or really good acceleration as gearing also affects this considerably.

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Motors run clockwise unless i'm mistaken, by retarding the timing ie. going under 0 degrees you are effectivley holding the motor back although it will still draw max current as it is trying to rev out. This is why your motor got very hot when you went -6 degrees on the timing as the timing was starting to get the motor to spin anti-clockwise whilst you and your esc were telling it to go forwards, this is not good and i wouldent go there again as it can seriously harm your motor.

;) Hope this helps

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Motors run clockwise unless i'm mistaken, by retarding the timing ie. going under 0 degrees you are effectivley holding the motor back although it will still draw max current as it is trying to rev out. This is why your motor got very hot when you went -6 degrees on the timing as the timing was starting to get the motor to spin anti-clockwise whilst you and your esc were telling it to go forwards, this is not good and i wouldent go there again as it can seriously harm your motor.

:) Hope this helps

Can anyone else confirm the direction the motor is supposed to spin? The motor spins counter clockwise but if I switch the endbell around 180 degress it runs clockwise. Moving the timing within the -6 to +6 degrees of timing doesn't effect the direction of rotation. The ESC I'm using is forward only and if the motor is spinning clockwise the car wants to run in reverse and will run forward only when spinning counter clockwise. I could switch the polarity of the wires on the endbell but I don't know if that would really be much different then having the endbell spun 180 degrees.

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Can anyone else confirm the direction the motor is supposed to spin? The motor spins counter clockwise but if I switch the endbell around 180 degress it runs clockwise. Moving the timing within the -6 to +6 degrees of timing doesn't effect the direction of rotation. The ESC I'm using is forward only and if the motor is spinning clockwise the car wants to run in reverse and will run forward only when spinning counter clockwise. I could switch the polarity of the wires on the endbell but I don't know if that would really be much different then having the endbell spun 180 degrees.

By Moving the endbell through 180 degrees you are basically doing what I said would happen -180 degrees backwards, +180 degrees forward. The reason -6 and +6 dont make a difference is because you are not altering the timing enough fo it to affect rotation.

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By Moving the endbell through 180 degrees you are basically doing what I said would happen -180 degrees backwards, +180 degrees forward. The reason -6 and +6 dont make a difference is because you are not altering the timing enough fo it to affect rotation.

Yeah I know moving the endbell -180 or +180 (which is the same thing) would give me a reverse polarity and make the motor spin in reverse. I am just trying to figure out if the person who owned the motor before me had the endbell on in the opposite direction (180 degrees out of sync). So what direction is the motor supposed to spin normally? If it is supposed to be clockwise, why would my car be running in reverse with this setup? I have also hooked up a stock tamiya motor (regular silver can) and it runs clockwise and makes my car run in reverse. Something is really confusing to me about this whole thing. Is there something wrong with my esc? It is a Tekin 410S, and from what I have seen in the online manual it is all set up correctly.

Thanks,

Dave

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when you're looking straight on at the pinion shaft, motor normal rotation would be "anticlockwise"

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So what direction is the motor supposed to spin normally? If it is supposed to be clockwise, why would my car be running in reverse with this setup? I have also hooked up a stock tamiya motor (regular silver can) and it runs clockwise and makes my car run in reverse.
The motor turns anti-clockwise, looking from the pinion end. Your ESC is a forwards only so you can't program it to work the wrong way. You can tell when the motor is wired up correctly as your car will go forwards, if the motor is wired up incorrectly your car will go backwards and the motor wires want swapping over.
So I have a new 3300mah NiMH battery from radioshack and the motor is one I got from a parts car, it is a DuraTrax Proline Wet Magnet Modified Motor 4WD/Off Road. These are being powered through a Tekin 410S ESC which barely gets warm but the battery and motor get so hot I can hardly touch either one after running them,
The pinion on the motor is way too big, the motor I assume is a low turn wind (can't find the specification), so you need to fit a much smaller pinion to let the motor rev into it's power band. The motor and battery are getting hot because the motor is struggling so the ESC sends more current to it which heats it up. The battery pack isn't a high quality race spec battery, so when the ESC asks for more power the battery can't supply enough and heats up. The ESC stays relatively cool because it's the only high end equipment in there and can handle the extra current flowing through it no problem.
I have also tried reducing the timing, the can has markings on it going from -6 degrees to +6 degrees. I have only tried to go with negative timing to reduce heat and I have only stayed within the markings on the can and -6 degrees seemed to make it run hotter than at 0. Is it possible to ruin a motor by adjusting the timing? Before I touched the timing I read quite a few articles about it and none of them mentioned anything about creating more heat by reducing timing so I was a little confused when this happened. Is there any way to test the armature to see if there is any damage to it?
Motors should generally be left at whatever timing they were set at in the factory. They have been tuned and the timing is set at what will give the best overall performance and efficiency.

Some motor timing theory.

If the motor timing is set at zero the motor is running at it's most efficient. The winds in the armature are energised in the centre of the magnetic field and generate the most power, so uses the least current and runs coolest. As the motor speeds up, the rotation of the armature means the coils on the armature are energised further away from the centre of the magnetic field. Advancing the timing brings everything back in line at high speed, but means the magnetic fields are out of position at low speeds, so the motor needs more current to run at low speeds. This is why lots of advance timing means the motor runs hotter and less efficient.

You have also run your motor retarded, with negative timing. what happens then is that the magnetic field generated by the armature is way off centre with the magnetic field from the magnets. What this means is the motor wants more and more electricity to keep going, trying to line itself up again and never making it. With retarded timing you have low revs, low power and lots of current draw and heat. You should never retard a motor.

If you don't remember exactly where the motor timing was set before you started moving the endbell, set it at zero so it runs coolest. Advancing it 2-3 degrees will make it perform better while still being fairly kind on the motor. Advance it further and it will start to draw more power, so for a little more speed you have shorter run times and everything gets hotter, only of use if you are racing where you run for no more than 5 minutes then don't run again until everything has cooled down.

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The motor turns anti-clockwise, looking from the pinion end. Your ESC is a forwards only so you can't program it to work the wrong way.

Motors should generally be left at whatever timing they were set at in the factory. They have been tuned and the timing is set at what will give the best overall performance and efficiency.

Oops sorry about that Agent Smith, cant beleive I put clockwise as rotational direction :)

I got the timing information from http://www.misbehavin-rc.com/pit-lane/moto...motor-terms.asp If you click on motor timing in the Article section and read first paragraph it is saying that if you decrease timing too much the motor spins backwards.

I think I'll stick to the knoledge base on Tamiyaclub from now on. :lol:

Just while I'm here is a Team Orion 2007 Element V2 19t Spec motor any good? I've been told they are rare and people want them for Racing, I have one already with another one comeing in a car I've bought.

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I went to the hobby shop yesterday to get a smaller pinion and unfortunately they didn't have them in stock so they had to order them for me and they will be here tomorrow night! Since I had my car there I figured I would asked the shop owner if my motor was dying since I thought I saw some unusual dark spots on the armature and he said yeah it is on its way out. So I bought a new motor, a Team Orion Havok 19t. I know it isn't anything special and it isn't rebuildable even though the shop owner told me it was but at least it should last a while. I am still trying to find the specs for the motor, I can't seem to find them anywhere. I emailed Orion asking them about the specs, just waiting on a response now.

So anyway after putting in my new motor I tested it out to see if everything still got hot and it did. I don't know if it got as hot as before but it was still pretty hot. So i tried something different just to see how long it actually takes for the motor and battery to heat up. I flipped the car over and ran it upside down for a good 15 minutes or so and nothing got hot. The battery stayed cool and the motor got a little warm but it was a big improvement over a normal run. I know having it run upside down didn't give the drivetrain any resistance but what could be causing that much resistance to make everything get that hot?

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Make sure you don't have crazy tight gear mesh. There should be a little play. Also, Radio Shack batteries are fine for bashing around so that shouldn't be a problem. I think it would be good to know what car you are running and the pinion/spur combination you have.

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Make sure you don't have crazy tight gear mesh. There should be a little play. Also, Radio Shack batteries are fine for bashing around so that shouldn't be a problem. I think it would be good to know what car you are running and the pinion/spur combination you have.

I am running a TA02 Truck with the stock spur and currently a 21t pinion. I am however getting the tamiya 16t-17t set tomorrow night as soon as it arrives at the local hobby shop.

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So I bought a new motor, a Team Orion Havok 19t. I know it isn't anything special and it isn't rebuildable even though the shop owner told me it was but at least it should last a while. I am still trying to find the specs for the motor, I can't seem to find them anywhere. I emailed Orion asking them about the specs, just waiting on a response now.
It's one of the better budget motors available, to get better performance from a 19 turn you would be looking at spending $40+.
So anyway after putting in my new motor I tested it out to see if everything still got hot and it did. I don't know if it got as hot as before but it was still pretty hot. So i tried something different just to see how long it actually takes for the motor and battery to heat up. I flipped the car over and ran it upside down for a good 15 minutes or so and nothing got hot. The battery stayed cool and the motor got a little warm but it was a big improvement over a normal run. I know having it run upside down didn't give the drivetrain any resistance but what could be causing that much resistance to make everything get that hot?
when it's sitting upside down the power of the motor is just used to spin the wheels, very little power needed for that, maybe one or two amps. When it's on the ground the motor is moving the whole mass of the buggy, stopping and starting puts even more load on the motor. Accelerating from a stand still needs over 5 times as much current as when running constantly at speed. Once you get up to speed there's also a lot of drag, buggies aren't designed to slip smoothly through the air and even at 20mph there's a relatively large amount of force from the drag that has to be overcome by the motor.

Fitting the smaller pinion will both make the truck more lively while also putting less of a strain on the motor and battery pack.

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I am running a TA02 Truck with the stock spur and currently a 21t pinion. I am however getting the tamiya 16t-17t set tomorrow night as soon as it arrives at the local hobby shop.

There's the reason for the motor and battery temps. 21T pinion is the ideal for silvercan with rally car size wheels (This TA-02 chassis is also used for rally car and tourer). The 16T/17T pinions will solve it. The kit pinion would have been a 17T. These chassis with this size wheel are best with a 19T pinion when using the kit 540 silvercan motor. With a lower turn motor the 16T and 17T pinions are just right (and as low as the gearing goes for this chasiss).

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There's the reason for the motor and battery temps. 21T pinion is the ideal for silvercan with rally car size wheels (This TA-02 chassis is also used for rally car and tourer). The 16T/17T pinions will solve it. The kit pinion would have been a 17T. These chassis with this size wheel are best with a 19T pinion when using the kit 540 silvercan motor. With a lower turn motor the 16T and 17T pinions are just right (and as low as the gearing goes for this chasiss).

I had the stock 17t but it went bad back in the 90's when I last used the car. When i bought a parts car it had the 21t pinion and that's why I have been using that one. I guess I will have the problem solved tomorrow night!

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