Help Me Pick My 4wd Offroad Buggy

[nakedsv]

I've got a good re-entry into this hobby.

In the 80s, I started out with a Tamiya Falcon. It could not handle an adolescent's street bashing. Broke the front bulkhead about 3X; couldn't afford to fix or replace it any more, so it went into mothballs. Shortly after that, I discovered that girls are hot.

Fast forward 20 years.

Now, I have a stock Traxxas Stampede, chosen for its ability to go in places the Falcon could not, and also its legendary durability. Great truck.

I have a Lunch Box on the way, which I picked up for $75 shipped from fleabay.

Now, I'm thinking of a 4WD buggy.

Naturally, I think the 80s designs look much nicer than the modern ones. Boxy, angular, and not afraid to have some bodywork above the shocks.

Here are the ones I've got it narrowed down to:

- Boomerang

- Hotshot

- Dark Impact

- HPI Cyber 10B

I will be bashing only. No competing. Durability is 1st priority, looks & tire selection are a near second.

Which would you get, assuming you will only have one, and your other vehicles are a Lunch Box and a Stampede?

Cheers!

[Power Surge]

I've got a good re-entry into this hobby.

In the 80s, I started out with a Tamiya Falcon. It could not handle an adolescent's street bashing. Broke the front bulkhead about 3X; couldn't afford to fix or replace it any more, so it went into mothballs. Shortly after that, I discovered that girls are hot.

Fast forward 20 years.

Now, I have a stock Traxxas Stampede, chosen for its ability to go in places the Falcon could not, and also its legendary durability. Great truck.

I have a Lunch Box on the way, which I picked up for $75 shipped from fleabay.

Now, I'm thinking of a 4WD buggy.

Naturally, I think the 80s designs look much nicer than the modern ones. Boxy, angular, and not afraid to have some bodywork above the shocks.

Here are the ones I've got it narrowed down to:

- Boomerang

- Hotshot

- Dark Impact

- HPI Cyber 10B

I will be bashing only. No competing. Durability is 1st priority, looks & tire selection are a near second.

Which would you get, assuming you will only have one, and your other vehicles are a Lunch Box and a Stampede?

Cheers!

Well, I'm partial to Thunder Shot based cars (Thunder Shot, Thunder Dragon, Fire Dragon, Terra Scorcher). The T-shot chassis was the next step after the Boomerang/BigWig cars.

Also, I'd suggest a nice older Kyosho like an Optima, Optima Mid, or even a good ole chain drive Rocky.

[Yuley95]

Dark Impact all the way. I have bashed the **** out of mine (with standard motor) and it took all the abuse. The only time I broke anything was when I put a 23 turn motor in and tried to make a triple jump at the local track. After landing really severely on the top of the third mound about three times I finally broke the rear shock tower but it was an easy replace (thanks to a generous TC member).

Others may look better or give vintage fun but if you want durability and a reliable car go the DI.

[TA-Mark]

Out of that list I would choose the HPI Brama/Cyber 10B. Sorry Tamiya. All of my other HPIs are very durable and put up with a beating. I would expect no less from this one.

If it had been released before X-mas last year I would be racing one this year instead of the DF-03 MS i'm currently running.

The Hotshot and Boomerang are re-release kits. Not much has changed in them from the originals. Quirky 80's handling and will not live through the same punishment as the more modern buggys.

Dark Impact base kit does have a few flaws. The dogbones spit out, had this happen many times until I upgraded to the DF-02 CVDs. The gear on the mainshaft is alloy and wears pretty quickly (Gearbox wore out quicker than the DF02 and DF01 that always run together - my kid's buggys). The rear diff has plastic bits which melt, use parts from the front diff in the rear or go straight for the DF-03 MS which has these problems solved with upgrades standard (except the mainshaft alloy gear which I've eaten through 3 already).

[nakedsv]

@PowerSurge: I'm a little confused on the pedigrees. I thought the Hotshot came first, then the Boomerang, which was the same exept with fewer ball bearings, more and better shock absorption, and an open chassis instead of boxed-in, then the Supershot, which was like the Boomerang, but with upgraded dual shock front, a hotter motor, and full bearings.

I see the Firedragon is re-released. Is that a more competent buggy than the Boomerang?

@TA Mark: To be honest, I'm not sure I'd know the difference between quirky 80s handling and modern handling. I'm not a racer, I'm a basher. If I could do some good bashing at medium speeds, maybe 30 mph, and a few mild jumps, that'd probably be enough for me. Am I going to have problems with the suspension breaking if I screw up a few jumps with the old buggies?

Tell me this, which would handle better, a modern 2WD buggy or a 80s 4WD buggy?

@Yuley: I want to learn to jump, and I think that will be pretty hard on a buggy. Sounds like the Cyber 10B is probably more rugged than the Dark Impact. However, it costs $80 more, so that is something to consider. $80 can buy an awful lot of repair parts, hehehe.

[Origineelreclamebord]

From that list the HPI is indeed probably the most durable one. The DF03 is not an unreliable car by nature, but people often expect too much of it (Stop complaining when the front chassis part cracks from a crash if you run some hot motor or brushless combo in it!). TA-Mark has a point with the alloy gear in the DF03's gearbox. It can wear quick, but because there are so many people who haven't had problems it might have to do with circumstances he drives the car in.

The Boomerang and Hotshot re-re are nice cars which have a certain appeal because they are pretty much vintage cars. They won't perform as well as the modern ones - There might still be the old design flaws - but in the end it's about the fun you have with the car. I don't think they have as reliable chassis parts as the other two, but the gearboxes should work well and have simple gear diffs (whereas the DF03 has ball differentials which take a little more maintainance).

[lucasan]

From that list the HPI is indeed probably the most durable one. The DF03 is not an unreliable car by nature, but people often expect too much of it (Stop complaining when the front chassis part cracks from a crash if you run some hot motor or brushless combo in it!). TA-Mark has a point with the alloy gear in the DF03's gearbox. It can wear quick, but because there are so many people who haven't had problems it might have to do with circumstances he drives the car in.

The Boomerang and Hotshot re-re are nice cars which have a certain appeal because they are pretty much vintage cars. They won't perform as well as the modern ones - There might still be the old design flaws - but in the end it's about the fun you have with the car. I don't think they have as reliable chassis parts as the other two, but the gearboxes should work well and have simple gear diffs (whereas the DF03 has ball differentials which take a little more maintainance).

For nostalgia, I like the Hotshot. I've built both the DF-03 and Hotshot chassis and I enjoyed the build on the Hotshot a lot more. If you're not racing, go for the Hotshot. On the other hand, The DB01 is an excellent car with an overall better design than the DF03, so if you're leaning towards the DF03, get the DB01. I have no experience with HPI, but now that you guys have sung their praises, I might check them out.

[TA-Mark]

@TA Mark: To be honest, I'm not sure I'd know the difference between quirky 80s handling and modern handling. I'm not a racer, I'm a basher. If I could do some good bashing at medium speeds, maybe 30 mph, and a few mild jumps, that'd probably be enough for me. Am I going to have problems with the suspension breaking if I screw up a few jumps with the old buggies?

Quirky handling is bumpsteer (car steers as the suspension moves through it's travel) and poor suspension geometry which has the chassis bouncing instead of the suspension soaking up the bumps and dips.

30mph from a vintage will dramaticly shorten it's life just because of the motors you need to use to obtain those speeds. 18mph is about what you should expect from the standard setup on bearings. 30mph means you need to more than double the motor rpm to gain the same road speed as you need to gear down for the 'hotter' motor. Unrealistic in a vintage style chassis.

MambaMax brushless 4600Kv in a DF-03 is only doing 30-35mph. 33,000rpm motor on 7.2v.

The re-release kits will take a fair bit more punishment than their vintage counterparts. Plastics quality has come a long way in 20 years too. They are weak by design compared to the modern buggys and will not survive the same treatment. Buy re-release only if you like the nostalgia of the vintage kits or want to relive those childhood dreams when you could not have afforded one.

Tell me this, which would handle better, a modern 2WD buggy or a 80s 4WD buggy?

Around a set course I would say the 2WD modern buggy will beat the vintage 4WD. Less driveline drag and the modern suspension is that far ahead of the vintage stuff. That depends on the modern 2WD too. Tamiya have nothing special in 2WD buggy. Losi and Associated have decent 2WD buggys.

TA-Mark has a point with the alloy gear in the DF03's gearbox. It can wear quick, but because there are so many people who haven't had problems it might have to do with circumstances he drives the car in.

As I stated in that thread, it's not just my DF-03 MS, it every DF-03 I've gotten my hands on. I've never found anything foreign in the any of the gearboxes, only 'clean' grey paste which was once Tamiya grease and the alloy gear. The dirt is red and you would see it if it entered the gearbox. I seal the covers and bearings with sealant and use rubber sheilded bearings in exposed locations. More likely usuage, I drive it very hard when I race (5 sec/lap quicker than anyone else that comes to race, all running the same motor/ESC/battery) and it gets used for practice everyday it's not raining, two or three 30 minute runs on a sunny day. My 4th gear is almost done for, I checked it tonight and then resealed the cover back on. Cleaned out the 'clean' alloy paste while I was in there and regreased with new grease. Standard motor, it lasted almost 2 yrs of weekend only use until there was nothing left of the maingear/idler gear/diff gear (The 3 gears are in 3 different parts bags). Compared to DF01 (with some fixes) and DF02, the DF03's gearbox wears much quicker.

The dogbones are a known problem. The pads in the outdrives compress and the dogbone pops out. You can pop them in/out by hand without even running the car or undoing any of the suspension. $90AU upgrade to change to DF02 universals. Other brand cheaper universals shafts are only 68mm, too short, the DF02 ones listed as the hopup are 70mm.

The rear plastic diff bits are also a known issue. Both are solved in the DF03 MS kit (which is more expensive than a regular DF03 kit).

I might end up with a HPI Cyber myself. Now the HPI buggy is available as a kit it's very tempting. Brama is the RTR version. Looking at the design it takes all the best points of the DF01/DF02/DF03 and combines them all into one chassis. Body styling is nice too and I'm a sucker for 5 spoke rims.

Now if only HPI would do the Savage-Flux in a kit. (They aren't, I emailed and asked and got a nasty reply email).

[WW-nut]

Now if only HPI would do the Savage-Flux in a kit. (They aren't, I emailed and asked and got a nasty reply email).

Great bit of customer service; "hello I would like to give you some money if you offered this in kit form" -> nasty reply. There's no extra effort in being polite. Now just think what the reply would have been if you had a problem with one of their products.

[TA-Mark]

I just had another look at the HPI Cyber. Parts availability would have me concerned. Nearly all are list as 'out of stock' and some are even discontinued already on their website. Nothing on eBay.

The buggy itself is very nice, well designed. I downloaded the huge 36mb manual and read through it. Suitable for upto 5700Kv brushless. So it will certainly do 30mph with the right motor and has gearing options to suit.

Taking into account the parts availablity I'm going to say DF03 with a few upgrades (DF02 uni shafts and the improved rear diff). They will break when you crash (all of the buggys you listed). The DF03 has heaps of parts available, which is normally the case with Tamiya and the current model.

[TA-Mark]

Great bit of customer service; "hello I would like to give you some money if you offered this in kit form" -> nasty reply. There's no extra effort in being polite. Now just think what the reply would have been if you had a problem with one of their products.

...and worse than that, I told them in the email how good the Savage nitro is that I've cained like nothing else for 53 ltrs of 25% nitro and how the worst I've broken on it is a crosspin, the fuel tank and the roto-start oneway. Then ask them when the Savage-Flux will be available as a kit so I can buy one and give them my hard earned cash... they reply to it nasty. I was taken by surprise I must say. Anytime I've contacted Tamiya or any of their distributors they've bent over backwards to help. Could be why I have 30 something Tamiyas and 4 HPIs.

[nakedsv]

I wonder if you could paste your email and their reply, just for our reference?

<tangent>It is a shame it happens to some companies. They know they make good stuff, and so they get arrogant, assuming we don't have choices.

Honda has done that to us in the scooter world in the USA, and so we are buying Yamahas and Suzukis instead.

There is no excuse for arrogant or poor customer service, so I won't be buying an HPI, even if it is superior.</tangent>

***

Your talk about DF-0x numbers has me pretty confused. Looking on the web retailers, I only know their model names, not what chassis' they're built on.

I think I might just buy two Tamiya kits: One Grasshopper to scratch my nostalgia itch, and one of something newer for performance.

What are your opinions of the Durga & belt drive vs. Dark Impact & shaft drive, from durability and maintenance standpoints?

[nakedsv]

What about this baby?

Kyosho Laser ZX-5

Better or worse than the Dark Impact for bashing?

[dimblum]

I wonder if you could paste your email and their reply, just for our reference?

<tangent>It is a shame it happens to some companies. They know they make good stuff, and so they get arrogant, assuming we don't have choices.

Honda has done that to us in the scooter world in the USA, and so we are buying Yamahas and Suzukis instead.

There is no excuse for arrogant or poor customer service, so I won't be buying an HPI, even if it is superior.</tangent>

***

Your talk about DF-0x numbers has me pretty confused. Looking on the web retailers, I only know their model names, not what chassis' they're built on.

I think I might just buy two Tamiya kits: One Grasshopper to scratch my nostalgia itch, and one of something newer for performance.

What are your opinions of the Durga & belt drive vs. Dark Impact & shaft drive, from durability and maintenance standpoints?

I have been racing a Durga for the past year at two local club tracks.. After all of the abuse, I have never broken a belt or damaged a part used for the drivetrain (diff etc).. I would say it's built extremely well.

[Mulsanne]

As your going to be bashing, it's worth considering the ground clearance. The DB01 (Durga/Baldre) looks lower than the DF03 (Dark Impact/Keen hawk/etc). Lower may be better on track but for bashing i'd rather have a bit more gound clearance for grass, rocks and curbs.

[TA-Mark]

DF-0* are the shaft drive 4wd buggy series from Tamiya. DF01 started with the Manta-Ray and includes the nicely upgraded Top Force. DF02 has a tourer type layout and limited ground clearance, Rising Storm, Gravel hound, Plasma Edge family of chassis. DF03 is newest and the current shaft drive 4wd. Keen Hawk, Dark Impact, Avante Mk2 and DF03 MS which is a hopped up Dark Impact out of the box (My Avatar and current racer).

No sorry, the email is gone, and about 1.6tb of other useful data. I lost 5 HDD's when a customer's virus took out all of my connected drives. It will hang at POST with them connected. Worst bit is I lost all my race sim saves. Luckily I'd backed up all the family photos to dvd the week before the job came in. I can't even remember exactly what it said. I do remember I wanted to sell all my HPIs then and there and never deal with them again or give them my money for parts.

You get silly emails from customer support all the time. I just got one from Losi confirming that a 1:36 Micro-T brushless motor is a bigger diameter (claimed 22mm) than a CM20 Castle Mamba 1:18 motor (20mm). Go figure.

[WW-nut]

I think I might just buy two Tamiya kits: One Grasshopper to scratch my nostalgia itch, and one of something newer for performance.

A Grasshopper is fine, but is quite a simple build - I'd go for a Hotshot. It really depends what cars you remember from your childhood. Go for a re-release that brings back those fond memories.

[cubsfan2009]

My collection consists of a vintage Hotshot, brushless Dark Impact, and stock Traxxas Stampede runnung on 2s lipo (huge improvement over 6 cell NIMH). From my experience I would say the Traxxas is the toughest and most fun for bashing. The Hotshot is a blast to drive, but not will not handle 30 mph speed. The DI is my high speed basher with a 4600kv brushless on 2s lipo good for about 40 mph running Dirt Hawg tires which are slightly larger diameter than stock and balloon like crazy.

I have beat on the DI and short of a hard glance off a rock, which broke a front upright, I haven't broke anything else. The DF03 is a very tough and capable chassis and makes an excellent basher. Even with the 4wd it will not go places the Stampede will, but will still tackle a wide variety of terrain. The biggest thing is what you will be running in. Buggies do not like thick grass or anything that requires alot of ground clearance. Save that for your Lunchbox or Stampede.

Like TA Mark said the alloy gear may be an issue. I've run a couple dozen 4200mah lipo's through mine and have not had any noticeable wear, but I can hear the gear whine increasing. A problem yes, but TA Mark put's as much time on his DF03 in one week as the rest of us do in a month or two so for average user it may only need to be replaced every year or two.

[TA-Mark]

That whine is the alloy gear. I know that sound too well. Check it and clean the paste out and you will get a few more runs on the same gear. It's the only failure I've had on the MS chassis. Rest of the chassis is tough as they come. My base Dark Impact kit has had a few more problems I mentioned earlier. Once I replaced the broken bits with upgrades it's fine now. And with the slower 27T Dirt Tuned motor it's a bit more gentle on that alloy gear and you get some life out of it.

[nakedsv]

@ cubsfan2009: are you in the Chicago area? Not many Cubs fans outside of here, hehehe. Maybe we could meet up somewhere, some time and I could check out your buggies firsthand. That would be AWESOME. Maybe you'd like to attend the Chicago area bash I'm hosting?

Anyone else here in the area is welcome to attend too. Bring picnic fixins. (beer, sandwiches, BBQ grill...) Just sign in over there and let me know.

a) Can you help me quantify something? You said the Hotshot is a blast to drive, yet admitted the DI is much more suited to fast driving. How does this work?

Also, on the re-re vintage front, is there any reason folks keep recommending the Hotshot and not the Boomerang? c) It it just because the Hotshot is the original? The Boomerang has the double shock rear suspension... d) Is the Fire Dragon better than both of them? (assuming full bearings are installed on all of them)

I've read that it is much harder to build, because certain aspects were over-complicated by good old Tamiya, and that the suspension is not really up to the rest of the car's performance. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% sure I can handle the build, but I'm not into over-complicating things just for fun. (I'm an engineer by day, and hate to see stuff complicated with no practical benefit) In the Hotshot's day, with mechanical speed controls, there may have been a huge benefit to sealing up the radio enclosure. But now?

Thanks for all the insights so far fellas.

[cubsfan2009]

Not in Chicago, just a big fan of the Cubs. I'm actually on the other side of Lake Michigan in Grand Rapids, MI. Been a fan ever since my first game at Wrigley years ago. Get WGN radio here so I can listen to games will bashing my R/C's.

I run a Superstock BZ motor in my HS so it's quite a bit faster than stock. Even though my HS is not nearly as fast as my DF03, the HS is more challenging to drive because of the poor suspension and handling. I've put anti-wear grease in the rear diff, so with the limited slip effect the car will power slide quite nice. The DF03 won't do that and instead just hooks up and go's. They're both great to drive just have totally different personalities. Just going fast gets boring after a bit.

Hotshot is the original classic and is why it is first to be recommended. The Boomer is the same chassis with better shocks.

Build wise most Tamiya's are pretty straight forward. The Durga and 501x are a little more challenging, but not to bad. Re-re Hotshot's electronics bay is not sealed up as much as before. They added a access panel.

Most Tamiya kit suspension is plenty good for stock or slightly modified motor, but once you get to really fast motors the suspension needs help. I upgraded to TRF Aeration shocks in my brushless DF03 to be able to handle the speed. Made a huge difference.

[HunterZero]

Hot Shot was the debut of that chassis, Tamiya's first 4WD 'fantastic plastic' offroader. It's not bad to drive, but suffers from poor suspension travel, especially at the rear, and soft suspension means the car is constantly bottoming out at the front, even on the 'stiffest' setting. Rear suspension linkage is way too complicated and inefficient, and wears quickly into a sloppy mess.

Super Shot was next, which was a fully hopped up Hot Shot - Full bearings, full length underguard, 4 shock upgrade (losing the front stabilizer though), simplified dogbones, pin spike tires and Technipower motor. Full bearings was a big deal back in the day, as they were so expensive. Solid car to drive, 4-shock setup improves ground clearance and solves the wear and bottoming out problems of the Hot Shot, and is remarkably good at landing jumps. Heavy mass of the car means the suspension has to work hard - Feels like an off-road 4WD Cadillac.

The charm of these early vintage cars is their mechanical 'look', with minimal body parts and lots of cool looking exposed chassis parts, and the entertaining bump steer evident in the steering. Plus they tended to understeer quite badly, so you had to 'flick' the back end around with a quick throttle reversal to get the nose around quickly. So they're quite involving to drive compared to more modern buggies, which are more 'point and squirt'. Might be fun for some, maybe not for others.

Boomerang came next, and has the same gearbox and front suspension arms as the Hot Shot, but with a revised rear arms, simplified prop shaft and dogbones (front dogbones were now same length as rear), different front knuckles and a new steering rack to reduce bump steer, and a bathtub chassis with dust cover instead of the closed mechanism box and rollcage. There was also the Super Sabre that came later, that was similar to the Boomerang, except it had red parts instead of blue/yellow. This car was popular as a racer back in the day because it was a lot easier to work on than its predecessors, relatively cheap, and had improved steering, yet was still compatible with some Hot Shot hopups.

Then came the Hot Shot II, which returned to the chassis of the original, but with the suspension from the Boomerang. And it had an access hatch on top of the chassis, just like the re-issue Hot Shot.

Big Wig was next, and had a massive bathtub chassis for the 8.4v Gold Power pack, Technigold motor in the kit, revised suspension arms and fully independant shocks. It was still based around the Hot Shot gearboxes. This car was too heavy and slow, and the love it or hate it looks of the odd body means it's not a very entertaining vintage runner.

Thundershot is the first of the '2nd generation' 4WD chassis, carrying over no major chassis parts from the Hot Shot series of cars, and is a much more capable off road car than the Hot Shot series. Had good ground clearance and a wider track with better suspension travel. Other cars in this series are the Fire Dragon, Thunder Dragon and Terra Scorcher. These all make great bashers, are robust, and are a good compromise between vintage style and capable handling, although the bodyparts don't look as good as the original 'Shot series cars. They handle rougher off road terrain remarkably well, and there are a modest amount of hop-ups around for them. Even the DF02 universal joints fit them.

Slotting in next is the Avante/Vanquish/Avante 2001/Egress series of cars. If you can find a Vanquish, these are a decent runner - but the rest are so expensive to repair and so hard to find parts for that they are better kept on the shelf. Problems with wear and damage to the exposed over-complicated suspension system plagued these cars.

DF01 cars came after this with the Manta Ray and Dirt Thrasher, and the more exotic Top Force cars. These handle the best of the bunch on smoother surfaces, but are not as durable. Typically these cars suffer from problems with the gearbox casings and shock towers failing, along with disintegrating alloy idler gear.

Comes down to personal preference. One thing I will say is that the older cars are a lot more entertaining to build than the newer cars, and they certainly have a lot more character. It's quite different building an older car compared to a newer one. The newer cars just tend to be the same to assemble as a touring car - start with a chassis that you screw suspension blocks onto, then the gearboxes on top of that.

Older cars are build around their gearboxes being a structural part of the car, with suspension arms bolting directly on. With the Hot Shot, the chassis is formed from the front/rear gearbox, top of the mechanism box, reinforced with the rollcage and front underguard.

For newer cars - DB01 can't be beat, IMHO, and a slipper clutch is available. Smokes the DF03 on a track. Just have to get a hex head stainless screw kit for it, because the hard plastic in the kit and use of machine screws instead of tapping screws makes it very difficult to assemble. But again, the body sets are rather anonymous. I like the Durga, but body parts seem to be hard to get for it, as the plain looking Baldre body set supposedly gives better handling on the track, so is more readily available.

- James

[qatmix]

I've driven all the cars in the list, I'd go for the Df03 over the HPI as if you break anything on the HPI you just cant get the spares.

The Df03 (dark impact) is great fun its more edgy than the db01 if you want a car for just ragging around. If you intend to race then get a DB01 (Durga / Baldre) really it should be just be a choice of those 2. fast fun reliable and both have good parts availability. The older cars suck.

[nakedsv]

Great responses. I still have a lot to think on.

Thanks for the detailed write-up HunterZero. I'm going to save that somewhere for future reference.

Due to the minor changes on the front suspension of the Boomerang vs. the Hotshot, did it have less of a problem with bottoming out, or was that still a problem?

From your write-up above, I can assume that the Fire Dragon is much more durable than the Boomerang?

I keep trying to look for ways to justify the Boomerang to myself. So I should probably just stop analyzing and follow my heart. It looks really tough.

...but it's just so hard to ignore that the newer ones are both better-performing AND less expensive...

[bngiles]

My suggestion.. If you want the best performing old school 4wd (available as a re-re) go with the Boomerangbecause the rear suspension is easier to tune. The Hotshot looks like a meaner buggy, which adds to it's appeal, I think.

If you want a tough and inexpensive new 4wd, go with the DI. Very tough car from what I've experienced. Not saying HPI is not any good, but eventually you will need replacement parts....