Subaru Brat Build To Start Soon! Please Advise!

[Formiga]

I won a Brat! My first RC car since the eighties. I'm more excited about this than I should be! It looks like (and the 'bay posting states it is) the vintage Brat not the redo, I don't care too much about the collectable aspect of this, I just want to be able to run what I thought was cooler than my Nikko! Tires look like they're flat spotted, LF suspension looks damaged (camber more negative there than RF), some wiring undone. Can any of you experts comment on what I'm going to need from what is viewable in these pictures?

I want to strip it, replace all the bearings - or swap bushings with bearings if that's the case, bigger wheels and tires (got an idea there), find a body that I figure looks cool, and then bash the badword out of it! To make the bashing a little more cool, already started collecting the upgrades! CRA 1,2,3 & 6 will certainly help! See rob101a, I'm not affiliated either. The adjustable motor mount will help with the larger wheels and tires, or at least in changing gearing. Now I need advise on motor, electronics (I might have to wait, to see what I get there unless any of you can identify from pics), gearing (I don't understand what to change there), and anything else I stumble into along the way.

So at this point if anyone has any advice, or can point out potential problems from those pics from the auction, or for that matter wants to make feel small for getting excited about finding an original Subaru Brat and wants to be told to pound salt, pipe up now!

[Formiga]

oops. Forgot to add a picture!

[Power Surge]

Very nice score! From what I recall from years ago, it's a Frog/Blackfoot based chassis. Looks like some upgraded shocks and the black sprint motor too. You should peel back the axle covers to see if they've been upgraded as well.

Oh, and one nice thing about your pics, I know know what these mystery wheels I've had for 20 years are from!

[Formiga]

Very nice score! From what I recall from years ago, it's a Frog/Blackfoot based chassis. Looks like some upgraded shocks and the black sprint motor too. You should peel back the axle covers to see if they've been upgraded as well.

Oh, and one nice thing about your pics, I know know what these mystery wheels I've had for 20 years are from!

They look like the shocks from the rere version of the Brat or Frog. I'll find out.

So to fit Blackfoot Extreme wheels, as they look like they are pretty common and cheap; I'll need CRP 1565 front wheel adaptors, one of the hex drive adaptors that are on the market, and the appropriate sized pinion gear? Does that sound about right? Missing anything there? Will I need to raise the body to clear the wheels?

Why do people replace the uprights when those CRP adaptors look to be readily available? Is there something wrong with them?

It's going to be so hard to wait for it to get here!

[mongoose1983]

They look like the shocks from the rere version of the Brat or Frog. I'll find out.

So to fit Blackfoot Extreme wheels...

The --lovely- Brat truck that you have there looks like the original Frog chassis to me. The bumper is from the Frog, and the shocks are not re-re but original all-metal Frog. The motor is a Tamiya upgrade sport-tuned, so it's sure it has the right pinion size already fitted. If you look closely, you'll see the previous owner used Frog body mounts to hold both dampers. Well, it has the original servo saver from the first generation of Brat pick-ups, so it's a very nice truck. The Subaru Brat was the very first Tamiya model to ever use this revolutionary chassis in the middle of 1983. After the Brat came the Lancia Rally, and THEN the Frog. I always wondered why people still refers to it as the "Frog chassis" (?)

Anyway, if you are going to make a Black Foot out of this one, I have the front arms and tower to do so. See my trade list:

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?...mp;#entry325583

You have a good Tuesday!

EB

--

[zakspeed]

As for what you have i'd say dispite the mods it's still the Brat be it a later edition if the wide front bumper is owt to go buy.

Check the gearbox to see if it's fixed or a diff in their. If fixed you may need to get the bearing carriers (easy to get and cheap)

The front skid and GRP is from the Frog and the dampers are definatly early shocks and not reissue. Being really sad that I am the front springs on a early Brat are short black items - later Frog ones are softer and chrome finish. They also have a little rubber bushing in the front tie bars.

The steering is biggest clue to being a Brat as this is unlikely to have been changed and finally the MSC on a Frog has a lot longer resistor wires (they mount to the gearbox on a Frog via a small ally plate) on side of chassis on a Brat like yours..

If you want to see early Brat differances see here early NIB Brat

As for what to do to yours i'd make it more Rat look >> Rat Brat

Ref pinion - standard are 380 with 10 tooth pinion, 18tooth pinion on a standard Brat Gearbox with standard set up. If you upgrade to Frog you have a choice of 3 ratios or upgrade to the CRP adjustable mount.. I find the 18tooth is a good all round set up ...

good luck and enjoy running it I never get bored of mine :-)

[nakedsv]

I'm planning to start my Brat build tonight.

I ordered the re-released one new. (still available, so vintage Brats aren't worth much now) Original had a 380 motor. The new one has a 540. Comes with an ESC and bearings in the trans. I ordered the bearings for the wheels.

You should try it before you wrench too much on it. If it is original, one of the best first mods you can make is to replace the MSC with an ESC, and replace the 380 motor with a 540. The of course bearings.

I think even the originals came with three gear ratios, but even with the low one, Blackfoot tires are going to be too much.

[zakspeed]

I think even the originals came with three gear ratios

Only the Frog came with interchangeable gear ratios (on the original releases not inc the reissue Brat)

The Brat, Lancia came with one fixed gear only (10 tooth on a 380)

The MB, Blackfoot and Mudblaster came with an adapter plate with 540 but still 10 tooth pinion.

[Formiga]

As for what you have i'd say dispite the mods it's still the Brat be it a later edition if the wide front bumper is owt to go buy.

Check the gearbox to see if it's fixed or a diff in their. If fixed you may need to get the bearing carriers (easy to get and cheap)

The front skid and GRP is from the Frog and the dampers are definatly early shocks and not reissue. Being really sad that I am the front springs on a early Brat are short black items - later Frog ones are softer and chrome finish. They also have a little rubber bushing in the front tie bars.

The steering is biggest clue to being a Brat as this is unlikely to have been changed and finally the MSC on a Frog has a lot longer resistor wires (they mount to the gearbox on a Frog via a small ally plate) on side of chassis on a Brat like yours..

If you want to see early Brat differances see here early NIB Brat

As for what to do to yours i'd make it more Rat look >> Rat Brat

Ref pinion - standard are 380 with 10 tooth pinion, 18tooth pinion on a standard Brat Gearbox with standard set up. If you upgrade to Frog you have a choice of 3 ratios or upgrade to the CRP adjustable mount.. I find the 18tooth is a good all round set up ...

good luck and enjoy running it I never get bored of mine :-)

I was thinking along the lines of this, topic 39676! I want to leave this body as is, other than maybe some repairs for structural. I think it looks cool! I wonder if the t-tops can be made clear, and want to find some little dude for the interior.

Team CRP got back to me about putting Blackfoot Extreme wheels on the Brat, I still don't understand all of the different methods of mounting wheels, I guess I'll look for pictures. Those adaptors will only work with that era Blackfoot/monster beetle wheels, so that idea is scrapped. Gonna need some more research there. I'm glad I didn't get too eager and order those wheels! I'm still not clear on how the gearing works either. Time for some reading...

[mongoose1983]

I'm still not clear on how the gearing works either. Time for some reading...

Just go compare the gearing of a Frog and a Blackfoot. There are many downloadable PDF archives of those manuals out there.

You have a good Wednesday!

EB

--

[Formiga]

OK, need to sort this whole gearing thing out in my head, makes no sense as is. The rere Brat comes with 16, 18, & 19T pinion gears, as well as 49, 50, & 52T spur gear (ring gear?) These give a 6.7, 7.3, & 8.5:1 gear ratios. Larger spur with smaller pinion gives low gearing or smaller spur with larger pinion gives higher gearing. Low gearing multiplies more torque, good for big tires or acceleration, and Higher gearing gives top speed. As this truck is a *******ized collection of parts, I can't know what gears come with it, but since I've got an adjustable motor plate, I can just drop down to the smallest pinon that would fit, and I may be ok for bigger tires! I don't understand how the 8.5:1 comes about. How do you get 8.5 out of 52 teeth on one gear and 16 on the other? Bah!

I think half the fun is the unknown factors with this project, but I have to admit - I'm not the most patient!

I forgot about the counter gear, are there different counter gears to further complicate this?!

[Formiga]

Just go compare the gearing of a Frog and a Blackfoot. There are many downloadable PDF archives of those manuals out there.

You have a good Wednesday!

EB

--

If the pictures are accurate in the original manual the spur was 46T, with a 10T pinion. What is that gear ratio? How do you come up with that #, and how does the counter gear affect that?

[terry.sc]

I don't understand how the 8.5:1 comes about. How do you get 8.5 out of 52 teeth on one gear and 16 on the other?

Gearing basics.

The gear ratio is the difference between the axle speed and the motor speed. For a ratio (also known as FDR) of 8.5 the motor rotates 8.5 times for one revolution of the axles. To calculate the overall gear ratio you need to multiply the (the diff gear divided by the gear that drives it, either a counter gear or layshaft gear) by (the spur gear divided by the pinion gear).

So for a Brat and Frog the gear ratios are:

(48÷18) X (52÷16)=8.667

(48÷18) X (50÷18)=7.401

(48÷18) X (49÷19)=6.887

[terry.sc]

If the pictures are accurate in the original manual the spur was 46T, with a 10T pinion.

The original Brat used a 380 size motor, not a 540. The 380 is smaller, so has much less torque but spins much faster. So it needs a much higher gear ratio.

[terry.sc]

So to fit Blackfoot Extreme wheels, as they look like they are pretty common and cheap; I'll need CRP 1565 front wheel adaptors, one of the hex drive adaptors that are on the market, and the appropriate sized pinion gear? Does that sound about right? Missing anything there? Will I need to raise the body to clear the wheels?

Why do people replace the uprights when those CRP adaptors look to be readily available? Is there something wrong with them?

It's going to be so hard to wait for it to get here!

The Blackfoot Extreme wheels are designed for a 4wd chassis, so need to be fitted to an axle that turns on bearings, which means modifying the front end with Traxxas Stampede parts to fit them.

What you have is either:

an original Brat that has been upgraded with the original Frog shocks and underguard.

or a Frog that has had Brat wheels and body fitted, although this is less likely as you wouldn't convert a Frog steering to the Brat setup.

To fit bigger wheels you will want to lift the body, Tamiya raised it about an inch when they made the Mudblaster.

[Bimdapogs]

Glad to know this is going to be restored. I originally got this from a guy who use to run it with his brother during their younger years (you should have heard the stories!), he found them boxed in his basement along with a BMW 782, a Willy's M38, a Scorpion and a Turbo Scorpion.

I didn't know it has some Frog parts. Strange because he has no Frog, but maybe he did??? Were these parts available as options at the time?

Looking forward to seeing some progress pics.

[skinned]

I won a Brat!

how did you win it?

[Formiga]

how did you win it?

Ebay auction! I love ebay, the most wonderful **** that you can find to buy!

The Blackfoot Extreme wheels are designed for a 4wd chassis, so need to be fitted to an axle that turns on bearings, which means modifying the front end with Traxxas Stampede parts to fit them.

What you have is either:

an original Brat that has been upgraded with the original Frog shocks and underguard.

or a Frog that has had Brat wheels and body fitted, although this is less likely as you wouldn't convert a Frog steering to the Brat setup.

To fit bigger wheels you will want to lift the body, Tamiya raised it about an inch when they made the Mudblaster.

I figured that wondering around and reading on here, and it looks like I could use Blackfoot/Monster Beetle wheels (expensive - but lots of tire options) or Lunchbox wheels (cheap, no tire options) quite easily with those odd Team CRP axle extension things. What's more cost effective? Stampede conversion, or Blackfoot wheels - either with Imex Claw Dawgs?

Glad to know this is going to be restored. I originally got this from a guy who use to run it with his brother during their younger years (you should have heard the stories!), he found them boxed in his basement along with a BMW 782, a Willy's M38, a Scorpion and a Turbo Scorpion.

I didn't know it has some Frog parts. Strange because he has no Frog, but maybe he did??? Were these parts available as options at the time?

Looking forward to seeing some progress pics.

I'm not going to restore it, I'll rebuild it and run it - not interested in correct, concourse restoration. So I do hope that wasn't what you mean! You know I think you may have been the fastest to ship anything after an auction has ended that I've encountered, which is good, as I'm looking forward to the Brat getting here!

[Formiga]

It's here, I came home from work to a very well packaged Brat 2 days faster than Canada Post projected! And it looks like it's even better than I figured from the auction pictures! Bimdapogs has been awesome to deal with, and I'll happily endorse him however I can! I can't wait to start ripping this apart! The rear wheels move together in the same direction, and I can hold one wheel and not turn the other. So original Brat diff it is! Should make for some nice traction in the dirt! This should not be as exciting as it is!

[Formiga]

Anyone know where I can get an original manual?

Edit: Found it! Manuals

How about manual for Radio setup? Futaba Attack FP-T2NL TX, FP-R2GS RX, FP-S28 servos

[Formiga]

And now it's stripped!

Very simple model, will make this easier. I found a copy of both the original Brat and Frog manuals, will help. Nothing at all broken, only some badly worn parts. All the original nylon bushings are done (was expecting that), the front arms are quite worn, half the screws are corroded, the battery holder things on the side are cracked, and the shock ends are worn. I was really expecting some broken chassis/suspension pieces that would need to be replaced. Now to find replacements on ebay, should be easy! I was surprised to figure out that I can only add 2 bearings to the tranny with the current spool setup, figured on 4. Can those brass bushings in the counter gear be swapped with some micro bearing?

So parts list I've come up with so far, 10 bearings (what size anyone? save me some reading!), 2xnew rear frog shock set, front arms, esc (like the looks/price of that viper one), some batteries and a charger. Then I need to decide on big tires or not, motor, and whether or not to keep tx/rx setup. I think tackling body will be last, make it go and then make it pretty! That'll keep me busy for a while, but going on holidays next week first. I'll keep you posted!

Now gotta go clean up my mess.

[Bimdapogs]

Hey man, what did you do to it???

J/K! I'll be watching this thread!

[zakspeed]

The small bearings are standard 850 bearings (you need 2) and the main bearings are 1150 you will need 10. But to fit bearings in the lower main gear you need to correct bearing carrier parts. If they are not fitted now you will need to source these. If you have the manual it will show you these parts (on the 'B' tree) from memory

The early Brats plastic has now become very brittle with age and it's not uncommon for the rear trailing arms / front wishbones / front bumper mount and the bumper to shatter with the mear sight of an impact.. If your not planning major abuse should be ok but worth replacing or at least getting spares for these parts.

[Formiga]

The small bearings are standard 850 bearings (you need 2) and the main bearings are 1150 you will need 10. But to fit bearings in the lower main gear you need to correct bearing carrier parts. If they are not fitted now you will need to source these. If you have the manual it will show you these parts (on the 'B' tree) from memory

The early Brats plastic has now become very brittle with age and it's not uncommon for the rear trailing arms / front wishbones / front bumper mount and the bumper to shatter with the mear sight of an impact.. If your not planning major abuse should be ok but worth replacing or at least getting spares for these parts.

So the small bearings being the brass bushings in the counter gear? I saw the B2, B5 thing in the manual - but haven't managed to find that parts tree yet. Will the new B parts tree B1,B2 swap with the old?

I might be getting carried away with this, it started out as supposed to be a budget vintage runner. I've ordered the vast majority of the parts I want (not necessarily need), and this is quickly turning into a full blown restoration. I'm going to resist looking for a body, if it still looks ratty, then it can't qualify as a shelf queen! I can't wait for everything to get here. Screws, front suspension, gearbox guts, CRA hopups, viper esc, new sport tuned motor, 2 sets of new frog shocks, wheels/tires, bumper/mount, wheel adaptors, axles, 1150 bearings. There's still a few things I can't find, screw bag D, and parts tree B. Do you Tamiya weirdos (I'd like to lump myself in there too!) go overboard like this often, it's so easy to do!

Edit: Found the B tree!

[Formiga]

Oh man! My CRA stuff got here today! Thank you RC_guy09 this stuff is awesome! Now that I've gotten these I don't understand why everyone wants the plastic old team CRP stuff for putting shocks on the front of their frogs! The bolton shock towers look cooler and let you put on a longer shock. Anyways, now to wait for everything else to get here so I can start building! Too much waiting for htis project...

Thanks RC guy09 this stuff is rad! I'm gonna have the coolest brat here!