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Frog Painting Guide For Brush On Tamiya Pc Polycarbonate Paints

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Hi, I have had a request from a friend in Australia who said to me ;-

"Btw, I saw your Frog body on TC forums. Do you know if there is a comprehensive set of steps for painting the Frog, anywhere on TC? I screwed my last one up. I'm really good at trimming and decalling, it's the masking and painting I am not good enough at. :) And I need to have another crack at the Frog."

I myself have now decalled the front and left sides of the car and wing, just needs the right hand side doing, and then I need to paint the driver's helmet cherry red (the Tamiya Enamel Red was too dark) and paint the lights Tamiya X8 Lemon Yellow Enamel (I want a shiny finish on them too on the colored part! - the black part is matt) and decal the lights and find a replacement for my old type Acoms Orange RX Crystal since I had problems with it. Then the car is finally done.

See picture below that shows where I am up to at the moment. I work slowly LOL.

So here we go while I write a painting guide for the Frog. I am assuming that whoever reads this is almost a total beginner to painting a "complex" shell like the Frog just as I was, so sorry to everyone else I don't want to offend anyone.

Now is the time is to decide which paints to use. If you want to use Sprays then you will have to wait until you come across a guide for doing that, since after I made such a good job of my Top Force when spraying it with PS paints, I then had a bad experience doing this more complex Frog paint job ;- see http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=52345 and instead I decided to use Tamiya PC brush on paint for PolyCarbonate.

Step 1 is to trim the shell. I do this by gingerly cutting along the lower edge of the line on the shell with Tamiya Curved Scissors for PolyCarbonate ( curved Lexan Shears ) and in fact I usually leave a 0.5mm or more gap between the lower edge of the line and my scissor cut so that I don't go into it by mistake. The curved part of the scissors should point away from the line towards the bottom of the Lexan mould. You should not make cuts that stop with the ends of the scissors, ever (or even close to the ends). That will cause a crack in the Lexan. You instead cut continuously with only 1/2 the blade used or less and keep opening and closing (but never even close to fully closed) as you go.

Step 2 is to then file the Lexan, I use Tamiya # 74046 Basic File Set and I use the flat file for straight lines and the curved file for curves (but you have to be very careful since the radius of the file is often much smaller than the radius of the curve that you are cutting to, so you often have to slide the file along the line at the same time as left to right across the line otherwise you will end up with "mouse bites in cheese" along the curve!

As you are doing the filing on the edges you may notice that it becomes increasingly difficult to file to the "line" in the Lexan as it starts to be very tricky to see. So I carefully draw dashes on the outside of the Lexan, along the "line" with a rather fine tip black permanent marker. Then I join up the dashes with a ruler or as best as I can if it's a curve (none of this is easy since the Lexan is of course slippery). As you file down to the line and make it just dissappear you will be filing through the protective overspray coating on the outside of the shell, which you can if you want peel back if it makes things easier to see as it makes the Lexan look cloudy anyway, and it's of no use if you are brushing the paint on (the paint always goes on the inside of the Lexan never the outside, and there is no overspray to worry about in this case). If at this point you decide you want to spray instead then you can always cover the outside with Tamiya brand (the best) masking tape along the edges and then use cling film for the rest of the outside of the shell as it's cheap but effective.

Step 3

Once the shell is nicely filed to the correct line everywhere now it's time to wash the INSIDE and outside of the shell with washing up liquid. This is to cut through the grease from the finger marks now on the inside of the shell and also to remove any mould release agent from the manufacture, since paint does not like sticking to

them and will come off. Do NOT leave to air dry, this will leave water marks. Dry with a very clean lint free cloth. I use old very thin T shirts that are worn out, for this sort of thing.

Step 4

Now you have to remember to paint the DARKEST colors first. This is because e.g. if you paint the white on the Frog first instead of the pink you will then contaminate the "look" of the white when looking from the outside if the pink is on top of the white and your white will have a pink border which looks bad! Thus with the Frog this means painting the "roll cage" inside the shell first. This is the most difficult job that you could ever attempt or at least I found it to be so. The problem is not the painting it is the masking for the roll cage.

Step 5

Go and buy Tamiya PC5 Black and also some X20A Tamiya 81040 thinner or some Isopropyl Alcohol ( Isopropanol , IPA ) (preferably 99 per cent pure not the 70 per cent stuff), the PC5 is very difficult to find but Value Models ;-

http://www.vmandm.com/shop.php?moreinfo=27639

...is where I got mine from. Also it is sometimes on Ebay (search "Worldwide" in Ebay). Also buy some Tamiya 6mm masking tape (the only one that you will need).

Step 6

Now decide if you want to replicate the original Tamiya Frog shell or not. If you have an original Frog shell already, I am happy for you. If not (like me) and yours is a re-release Tamiya shell from the original mould then please note that the new shell does not have the cut out in the rear window for the receiver switch. I found out from some kind TC members ;-

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=48719

...as to the exact dimensions and location of this aperture and cut this out myself by first making little dinges (centre popped holes) in the correct locations for the apertures with a 1.5mm drill held in a swivel head pin vice, bashed with a handy nearby object, not too hard but only enough to make a decent impression / dimple (difficult as the Lexan is slippery) on the surface, then I drilled 1.5mm then 2mm holes and joined them up with files from a 10 piece cheap needle file set, to complete the job as you can see in that link above.

All of the correct holes called for in the body shell should now be drilled as per the Frog manual.

Step 7

Now is the time to decide whether you want to run this shell hard or keep it for the shelf. In my case it was to go on the shelf so I used 2 thick coats of paint. I did this because under reasonably strong lighting like when the body is sitting on my table under my desk lamp the colors don't look opaque enough with a thin coat. Unfortunately this thick paint makes it prone to peeling off a little when racing and cracking as it dries in certain places. However the latter can be compensated for by going over it and believe me you won't see the flaws afterwards, it always comes out perfect.

If you want to run it, the shell will flex heavily in use and the paint may start to come off a very small amount, this can be avoided by "keying" the shell with fine abrasive such as a Lexan sanding pad or P1200 grade Silicon Carbide abrasive sheet used wet. This provides a key for the paint to grab hold of and it won't come off nearly as badly in extreme racing conditions. Don't worry about the scratches that it causes on the inside of the Lexan because when painted on the inside you can't see any evidence of scratches at all on the outside. Test on scrap Lexan cut offs with your paint before you start the main paint job.

Remember not to abrade the windows by mistake, so be very careful around those. Especially do not abrade the clear windscreen in front of the driver which lies under the gap between front roof and top of this window.

Unfortunately this abrasion of the shell to provide a key for the paint makes the paint very difficult to remove completely if you ever want to strip the shell and repaint it in different colors, there will be a shading left over of the previous paint which you won't be able to remove.

Now you can start to mask off for the roll cage at the back. I show this in the pictures below. Note that one side was already painted in PS1 (my experiment at painting the roll cage by spraying - a complete disaster - see topic here;-

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=52345

- that's why I changed to using PC paints for this job). You can see where I used Tamiya masking tape and haven't managed to rub down the edge of the tape properly with the top side of my finger nail and some paint has bled through. This is mainly happening on the corners where it is very difficult to mask without paint going under the tape. This is no big deal and can be corrected with some X20A thinner and a thin cloth (after the paint has dried for 24 hours) to carefully get rid of the excess, you will see the result of me doing this in later pictures... I often use a short (3 inch) biro pen with the ink run out years ago pushed into a cloth wetted a little in Alcohol (X20A) near the corners and any difficult to reach areas and rub off the excess dry paint with the tip.

Also you can see on the left side where I have been rubbing the scratches out of the window etc.. (when it all went wrong when I tried spraying it) and later you will see that I managed to fully correct this problem.

Note also the cut out aperture for the receiver switch.

Yes, masking it is a total pain and a complete nightmare LOL. At least so I found...

Finally note that the PC5 paint should be thinned a little and it's drying time retarded with 1 drop of Glycerin to 20 drops of paint, as per my instructions in the topic above about the PC paints. Any more Glycerin than this and your paint will NEVER dry. You can buy Glycerin in any Supermarket. It's in the baking (food) section. I apply the paint with a reasonable sized (2.5 / 3mm wide tip) flat brush.

Notice how you will have brush marks inside the Lexan but no brush marks ever show on the outside of the Lexan since it's glossy and the paint flows nicely and does not dry too fast as we have retarded it. You may see pinprick holes on the finish under a strong light but you won't see them in normal lighting conditions, but you can always fill them in if you want to.

More to come.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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At this stage I draw dashes using a fine tip permanent marker along the body lines in the shell (the ones for the 'triangle' of black around the rear edge of the shell) so they are easier to see for running the straight edges of the masking tape along. If you have a curved line to follow then you will need a very thin width tape such as Micron tape which is available on Ebay etc. (e.g. 2mm wide or less), this 6mm tape can't really be made to follow anything else than an almost straight line as it's too rigid. Every mistake I make I go back and retry it until I am happy that it is the best that I can do in the time available.

More to come.

Cheers,

ARG

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Now it's time to make a start on the roof section of the roll cage. I draw lines around the lower edge of the roll cage (top of the windows) on the outside of the Lexan, with the pen (as can be seen in some pic's) so that I have a line to mask off to on the inside of the shell for the roll cage. The pen lines come off when rubbed with Alcohol (don't forget to remove them after you have finished with them!).

The roof section is the most difficult part of all since there is an approx. 2mm "thick" "roof panel" of white painted "Aluminium" (simulated) in the roof that you have to mask off along, you will notice this in the side profile in the manual and in my photo's below and to come. Like Willy Chang suggested, I did the long lines with masking tape and then sometimes joined them up freehand with a 0.6mm diameter brush using the black paint. That part is surprisingly easy but it's the masking that will drive you insane trust me :)

More to come.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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Now we paint the roll bars either side of the roof part (and after 24 hours then remove the tape afterwards), so it will look like this ;-

You can maybe notice corrections all over the place as I go, as I clean up mistakes on some bits etc.

Cheers,

ARG

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Now after removing the tape which was on the roof centre section we can mask off for the front angled sections of the roll bars and the front of the roof section that "hangs down" over the front edge to the same depth (thickness) as the rest of the roof. See pictures ;-

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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Now comes the masking on the rear part of the roof . Also shown is where I am correcting the pointed part of the rear "triangle" around the rear end. Note the way that I remove the black pen lines after they have served their purpose! BTW one photo is a view from the inside of the shell ;-

Cheers,

ARG

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Here I am carrying on doing the front and rear of the roof masking. Also tidying up some edges to make everything neater. As you can see I re-did some sections multiple times until I was happy.

LOL.

Cheers,

ARG

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Now it's time to mask off the very front of the roll bars either side of the front clear windscreen.

Once again there are sections were the paint bled under the masking tape because of the awkward curves involved inside the shell for the roll bar sections. This is an unfortunate consequence of the roll cage being "indented" into the shell. I have had to constantly refine and clean up the mistakes.

I have put up many images but my friend did say that he wanted a comprehensive guide :)

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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Here are some shots of the above operation but showing the inside of the shell.

Also shown is the next step which is masking the top curved parts where the roll cage meets the top of the front roof. At least they seemed to be curved sections in the catalog art so I did it as close as I could to the catalog. This part is rediculously difficult to do IMHO :)

Cheers,

ARG

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OK here you can see the paint has been applied and apart from a little bleeding under awkwardly curved sections of the roll cage, the Tamiya masking tape gives satisfyingly sharp edges.

Cheers,

ARG

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Here are the results when I removed the tape. As you can see there are mistakes that need sorting out with alcohol and a thin cloth or biro pen tip pushed into such a cloth.

Cheers,

ARG

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After cleaning up the various screw ups, using the above method of thin cloth / pen in cloth / alcohol, I then got the result in the pic's. Also I used the 0.6mm fine brush to correct certain parts as well, painted freehand. In each new picture there is often another change I made.

Sure there's probably too many pic's but what the heck, I took them so I thought I might as well include them.

Cheers,

ARG

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OK it looks like I wasn't satisfied and re-did some small areas again and then I must have decided that this is the limit to my own modelling skills, so this is the final set of pic's before I moved on and started painting the roof white.

At least there are some side on pic's so you can see exactly where you needed to mask for the roof section.

Cheers,

ARG

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Next stage is to paint the white roof in. This is done with the Tamiya PC1 White PolyCarbonate paint (painted on the inside just as all the paint so far). I used a 3mm wide flat brush to paint with. I used the method at ;-

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=52345

...to retard the drying of the White paint. Note that I wanted 2 thick coats and it can crack in some places as it dries if you do thick coats, so 24 hours later after the final coat I went over it again in the places where it had cracked and it came out perfect on the white.

Now something VERY important to mention. MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE that you have erased all traces of any dirt or black specks of paint from the shell in the roof area BEFORE painting the white. Do this against a sheet of white paper so you can see where the dirt / black paint specks are, and erase all trace of them with a thin cloth with some alcohol. I learned this the hard way after not realising that it was a necessary step, and ended up with black marks in places so I had to rub a lot of it off and re-do it. However it still came out almost perfect as you can see! Be very careful not to let the solvent dissolve any of the black edges of the paint that you have just painstakingly done! :(

Yes it's another complete nightmare to do. What a surprise LOL.

The photo's below show what I think was my inital attempt, complete with paint cracks, black marks etc. In later pictures to follow I re do certain sections to correct mistakes.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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Wow i didnt think the frog would be so hard to paint! as it always has a polycarbonate body? i thought being a begginers sort of car it be easy to paint! eek lots of pics great detail makes me

wish i had one now to paint!

I have some of the tamiya maskng tape sure is the best worked well for me so far not to much bleeding and like you say prepping it correct is most important as dry and clean as possible!!

I need to get me some alchohol, where do you get it? is it called denatured alchohol or something?

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Wow i didnt think the frog would be so hard to paint! as it always has a polycarbonate body? i thought being a begginers sort of car it be easy to paint! eek lots of pics great detail makes me

wish i had one now to paint!

I have some of the tamiya maskng tape sure is the best worked well for me so far not to much bleeding and like you say prepping it correct is most important as dry and clean as possible!!

I need to get me some alchohol, where do you get it? is it called denatured alchohol or something?

Well I for one certainly found it to be one of the most difficult things that I have ever done in life! More tricky even than trying to bump start my Fiesta (with a practically dead battery) going backwards (!) down the hill in reverse being pushed by a neighbour whilst skidding on the snow and whilst trying to avoid snow drifts, wheelie bins, and other cars LOL, what a nightmare that was yesterday ;) .

There's no way that I personally would have achieved anything like this paint job at, say, age 10, back in 1984, 1 year on from the car's original release.

The re-re shell is not that expensive I think (yet). Yes it's PolyCarbonate, and with good thickness and nice detail so great quality.

Some people manage to mask this and paint it with PS sprays, I have no idea how they manage it! But they do mention that the masking is a pain and a total nightmare! And if you screw it up you must remove the mistakes immediately with Tamiya brand Lacquer Thinner. Left more than 1 day and you can't remove it, ever, unless you use glow fuel with high % Nitro and strip the lot off...

Glad you found the Tamiya masking tape to work wonders too (as long as you don't ask it to do anything approaching small radius curves as it's too rigid, or undulating parts as the paint will bleed under the tape).

The Alcohol is as I mentioned called Isopropyl Alcohol or Isopropanol. Usual disclaimer in case there are children reading this (it can kill you so don't drink it). Also shortened to IPA . The slightly cheaper version is the one called Rubbing Alcohol (70 per cent IPA, the rest being distilled water I believe, plus some additives so you can't drink it, that's why it's called denatured), and is what Tamiya's X20A thinner is made of I think. You can't get X20A in the UK anymore (I just had 2 bottles arrive from Hong Kong from Ebay) but you can buy IPA from Ebay UK. I get the 99 per cent pure version but it evaporates faster as Willy Chang mentioned. It's about 3.50 quid for 250ml, plus free postage, from the seller that I chose (UK seller).

The Frog can be a beginners car, it just depends how fussy you are about the paint job :( BTW RTR isn't what I would ever have, it takes all the fun out of it. The sense of achievement you get from this paint job is enormous LOL. I screwed up slightly in a few places but it looks rather acceptable I think.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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After painting over some cracks that appeared (since I used thick coats for more opacity) and after removing the paint in certain places to remove the black marks under the white paint that had missed since this was my first attempt, I had the result below, and decided that was as good as I could manage before moving onto the next stage of masking around the bottom of the front windscreen.

Cheers,

ARG

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Next step is to do the masking around the bottom of the front windshield . Unfortunately it isn't straight forwards because it is curved and the masking tape won't comply to the curve. Therefore we have to try a different method. I got a piece of tracing paper (in my case Greaseproof paper for cooking) and stuck it down onto the shell tightly with cellophane tape. Important that the paper doesn't move even slightly.

Now I traced along the curved line along the bottom of the front window with a sharp HB pencil and then took off the greaseproof paper and stuck a piece of masking tape along the underside of the paper, and finally I got a very sharp pair of scissors (in my case either Kitchen Devils or Tamiya Decal Scissors) and cut the tape to the line from the top side of the paper so I could see the line.

Then I edited the cut slightly where I had screwed up, checking constantly against the shell in case there was any deviation from where the cut should be. Once done I removed the piece of tape carefully from the greaseproof paper, taking care not to handle the sticky side so as to get no finger grease on it.

After degreasing the shell where the masking tape was due to go with alcohol I then I carefully stuck this piece of masking tape to the underside of the shell in the correct place as seen in the photo's below. Make sure there are no black specks or crud on the shell before you apply the tape!

Yes this is also a nightmare to do, since if you get the position of the tape wrong you have to pull it up (multiple times in my case) and you risk creasing it or ripping it etc. :( !

Below I first show pictures of the underside of the body shell.

Cheers,

ARG

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First are a couple of pic's of the outside of the shell showing the masking for the bottom of the front windshield.

Now it's time to paint the white part on. Here below are pic's showing is the result that I got ;-

Also shown is a picture of where I have painted the "side mirrors" in white. If I want to add a reflective part in later I can always use some silver painted paper stuck to the outside of it. Also you can see a pic' where I have started to paint the lower section of the body in (or at least the very beginnings of it) around the side at the back.

Cheers,

ARG

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Well I for one certainly found it to be one of the most difficult things that I have ever done in life! More tricky even than trying to bump start my Fiesta (with a practically dead battery) going backwards (!) down the hill in reverse being pushed by a neighbour whilst skidding on the snow and whilst trying to avoid snow drifts, wheelie bins, and other cars LOL, what a nightmare that was yesterday ;) .

There's no way that I personally would have achieved anything like this paint job at, say, age 10, back in 1984, 1 year on from the car's original release.

The re-re shell is not that expensive I think (yet). Yes it's PolyCarbonate, and with good thickness and nice detail so great quality.

Some people manage to mask this and paint it with PS sprays, I have no idea how they manage it! But they do mention that the masking is a pain and a total nightmare! And if you screw it up you must remove the mistakes immediately with Tamiya brand Lacquer Thinner. Left more than 1 day and you can't remove it, ever, unless you use glow fuel with high % Nitro and strip the lot off...

Glad you found the Tamiya masking tape to work wonders too (as long as you don't ask it to do anything approaching small radius curves as it's too rigid, or undulating parts as the paint will bleed under the tape).

The Alcohol is as I mentioned called Isopropyl Alcohol or Isopropanol. Usual disclaimer in case there are children reading this (it can kill you so don't drink it). Also shortened to IPA . The slightly cheaper version is the one called Rubbing Alcohol (70 per cent IPA, the rest being distilled water I believe, plus some additives so you can't drink it, that's why it's called denatured), and is what Tamiya's X20A thinner is made of I think. You can't get X20A in the UK anymore (I just had 2 bottles arrive from Hong Kong from Ebay) but you can buy IPA from Ebay UK. I get the 99 per cent pure version but it evaporates faster as Willy Chang mentioned. It's about 3.50 quid for 250ml, plus free postage, from the seller that I chose (UK seller).

The Frog can be a beginners car, it just depends how fussy you are about the paint job :( BTW RTR isn't what I would ever have, it takes all the fun out of it. The sense of achievement you get from this paint job is enormous LOL. I screwed up slightly in a few places but it looks rather acceptable I think.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

lol the snow has been a nightmare for many i have been having to get buses as i normally ride a motorbike wasnt even going to attempt that!!

No when i was 12 it was a one colour paint job i think lol and even then i had wrong paint ts instead of ps doh cracking glalore!

yea very sticky tape and the dispenser means the edges stay clean.

I see will have to get some off ebay will look later need something as even after washing still see stuff on shell. I will not try and drink and keep it in a safe place to.

Same here no way to anything rtr i do enjoy so much building and painting a kit, even more so than using them at times.

Looks like you have really sharp lines now and this is really great guide for anyone whos just got a frog to paint!! and some great general painting tips to.

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First below I painted some PC11 pink on to see if it worked along the black line at the rear of the shell, which seemed to work fine.

Then I masked off an painted the pink upper edge of the lower half of the body but ONLY for the section behind the motor cut out. Then I painted the white over the pink. Note the pink goes also on the lower shoulder in the body that divides the white from the pink. No white goes on this shoulder, except at the front on a partial section where the shoulder curves upwards away from the pink. Don't paint the pink anywhere else at this stage. Remember not to do the white first or the white will get shaded pink by the pink.

Next stage is to mask off and paint the upper half of the white body, but only about 1/4 inch or so (5mm) of it in depth. Note that the upper part of the body has a shoulder where it meets the side windows and this shoulder must be painted white also. You will need to cut the masking tape at an angle to meet the bottom of the rear bars of the roll cage (as shown in a pic' (s) below). I painted any gaps where I could not get the masking tape in by brushing with my 0.6mm brush, freehand.

As can be seen, real progress can now be seen in the photo's.

Also I re-did some of the side mirror painting because yet again I found black smears and marks that I had missed.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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Looks like you have really sharp lines now and this is really great guide for anyone whos just got a frog to paint!! and some great general painting tips to.

Thanks Lee I really appreciate the kind feedback.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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Next step is to mask off for the pink on the lower half of the body. We paint the pink first instead of the white or else the pink would show through the white. This part is not quite straightforward to mask as there are 4 problems ;-

1) it has to be done so that the pink paint covers the shoulder on the divide between the pink and white part of the shell as mentioned above,

2) the masking tape has to curve down from this shoulder to the front section in a subtle curve (which can just about be accomodated by the 6mm masking tape with care), this can be best seen in the side on pic' in the set of pictures following these,

3) the masking tape has to cross the 2 bulges in a straight line on each side of the body where the 2 side body clips go,

4) and the tape has to go in a straight line across the 2 bulges near the front of the body where the top and sides meet (the 2 lumps on the "nose" of the Frog .

For the 2 latter problems I simply drew a dashed line in fine tip permanent marker, using something straight that bends in one direction only like a tape measure, on the outside of the shell, and then masked along that line on the inside of the shell as the paint always goes on the inside. The tape is quite tricky then to conform to a straight line whilst simultanously going around the curve on the inside of these bulges, but it can be done with care, just make sure that there are no creases in the tape anywhere and that you go along the tape with the top of your fingernail like in all the previous operations to press the tape down along the very edges to ensure no paint bleeds under the tape.

Cheers,

ARG

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Below are some pictures showing the result that I had once I had removed the tape from both sides. It's one of my best masking jobs, nice clean lines, which was a nice surprise for me.

Now it's time to attempt the nose cone masking for the pink lower section. This is a real problem because of the multiple curvature, so I just layed the tape on as best as I could and joined the rest up freehand with the 0.6mm brush. There is a line in the shell to guide you, and that's what I used. If it's tricky to see, try viewing it against dark and then light backgrounds or a border between the same. I have a 60W daylight (blue shaded) Tungsten filament bulb in my desklamp and found it tricky to see the line but not impossible. I drew dashes along the line and then joined up the dashes with the masking tape on the inside of the body.

Note that in the pictures the pink is coming out mostly paler than in reality because it's taken with a flash. The PC11 pink is however noticeably paler than the PS11 spray version.

As can be seen I screwed up in several places and mostly relied in the end upon fingernails pressed into a thin cloth with some alcohol or a dead biro pen pressed into the same, to remove the excess paint along the edges to tidy them up. The final result took a long time but was worth it. I redid it over and over until happy.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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Now all that's left to do is paint the white of the upper part of the body, then trim and paint the wing and go over any cracks in the paint (if you used thick coats to make the paint very opaque for a shelf queen) and I got this result which pleased me greatly as I really felt a sense of acheivement after this stage ;-

Cheers,

ARG

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