Going twin brushless motor

[Rob Buckle 1]

Thanks guys,

...the other reason to go for the 60's / 8.5t's is the full 540size rotor = mucho torque over the 380's.

Have you changed the gearing since your thread (you mentioned in the thread that you were using stock gearing)?

[kaiser 8]

yes, i now run 2 15t pinions. top end has increased and i still have the tq to spin it around if i need to. i may try a pair of 16t pinions in the future.

right now it's outdoor 1/10 and 1/8 season so i jsut use my clod between round for fun. once fall winter hit's i'll be racing my clod indoors monster jam style again.

[Percymon 2184]

Pete did a thread on Clodtalk forum that discusses some of the installation layout etc..

http://www.clodtalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24432

There's plenty of other brushless set-ups on that forum too, some of the videos are a bit crazy. Read a few threads there and you soon discover what breaks !

[Rob Buckle 1]

Pete did a thread on Clodtalk forum that discusses some of the installation layout etc... There's plenty of other brushless set-ups on that forum too, some of the videos are a bit crazy. Read a few threads there and you soon discover what breaks !

Thanks Percymon,

I've just taken a look at the thread you linked to. I do lurk over at ClodTalk from time to time, but generally frequent here more often. Will take another look shortly.

Cheers

[Percymon 2184]

This thread is also worth a read, shows the wiring set-up a bit clearer and includes some videos of it running so you get an idea of speed

http://www.clodtalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&...827&start=0

[Rob Buckle 1]

Does anyone know the ESC amp rating for the Castle Creations:

1. Sidewinder SCT;

2. Mamba Max SCT

Their ESC manual does not stipulate the value.

I'm trying to compare them against EZrun's 60amp ESC (as part of their 8.5t combo).

[TA-Mark 195]

Does anyone know the ESC amp rating for the Castle Creations:

1. Sidewinder SCT;

2. Mamba Max SCT

Their ESC manual does not stipulate the value.

I'm trying to compare them against EZrun's 60amp ESC (as part of their 8.5t combo).

There is no comparison... EZ-Run's best sensorless system is less than Castle's worst system.

Castle are 'more than you can handle'. They don't list the real specs so you don't test them out, but they are about 25% more than the application that they are designed for so that there should not be any warranty issues with them failing.

From talking on the phone to the guys at Castle I know the regular MambaMax is around 120Amp and the regular Sidewinder is around 80Amp. I've not spoken to them since the release of the SCT systems, but I'd expect the new ones to be of a similar rating.

[kaiser 8]

ever wonder why so many people say that castle's customer service is excellent? because they have needed it! lol

just about every racer i know used castle at one point or another and switched due to failures. just say'n.

[TA-Mark 195]

ever wonder why so many people say that castle's customer service is excellent? because they have needed it! lol

just about every racer i know used castle at one point or another and switched due to failures. just say'n.

I must be a lucky one then, or they did something silly? My many Castle systems have given years of trouble free use. I'm usually calling them to discuss 'other' applications for their systems and end up chatting for quite awhile over a variety of RC related topics. Things like throwing a MambaMicro Pro and CM20 1:18 car system into a 1:12 scale balsa boat on 9.9v A123 (no one seems to make small boat systems) and the waterproofing issues associated with that. It works good in there too, much faster than the 19 turn bouble brushed it was running.

[kaiser 8]

i can't say for sure, i do know that they guys i know that have had issues are not noobs and know all about gearing and what it takes to run safe. it's been esc failures.

around these parts you never see castle on 1/10 race cars, most people are running sensored now, novak, tekin, speed passion, and hw xerun.

in 1/8 you still see some castle, but even 1/8 is going sensored with tekin and hw xerun.

hpi has had terrible luck with thier rebranded castle systems, but i'm convinced that it's mostly due to them using systems to small for the applications.

the flux's have a bad rep for esc's.

[Rob Buckle 1]

Hmm.

I've looked at EZrun's, XErun's and Castle's offerings on ebay as well as Castle's web site and am considering the following combos (x2 obviously):

1. EZrun 8.5t 60A ESC + 4000kv motor combo ~£105;

2. XErun 8.5t 120A + 4000kv motor combo ~£240;

3. Castle Sidewinder SCT ESC + 1310-1Y (3800kv) motor combo ~£140;

4. Castle Mamba Max Pro SCT ESC + 1310-1Y (3800kv) motor - NOT A COMBO DEAL ~£220

I like the Sidewinder combo price but also like the idea of future-proofing myself in terms of larger motors or 3S in the future by going for the Mamba Max ESC. Problem is, that package is ~£80 more. Is it really worth it? Not sure.

I definitely like the fact that the leads exit Castle's motors from the side whereas the leads are simply offset with the EZrun and XErun motors. Consequently, I'm a little concerned they may still clash with the Clod stock links (though to be fair the links will be replaced for slimmer metal rods in the relatively near future). A minor point, but I also like the thought of not having to make up connections (battery excepted) with the Castle gear.

Customer service is quite possibly irrelevant whoever I purchase from as both America and Hong Kong are effectively too distant and therefore too costly to return faulty goods. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm leaning towards the Sidewinder SCT combo with the view that if in future I want even more oomph I will simply have to upgrade the ESC. If I do go with Castle I'd also purchase the Casle Link USB cable. However, a program card does not come with this combo, and I gather that setting up a brushless ESC is far easier with than without one. Is the Castle Link effectively the program card, or does Castle not support a program card?

[TamiyaVancouver 5]

The EZ Run/XE Run systems are 3S capable as well with a minor modification to the fan.

Mark

[TA-Mark 195]

I'm leaning towards the Sidewinder SCT combo with the view that if in future I want even more oomph I will simply have to upgrade the ESC. If I do go with Castle I'd also purchase the Casle Link USB cable. However, a program card does not come with this combo, and I gather that setting up a brushless ESC is far easier with than without one. Is the Castle Link effectively the program card, or does Castle not support a program card?

The Castlelink supports setup via USB with a PC, and with a Fieldlink card, or by manual setup.

It only offers basic control of the 1st tab in the Castlelink software when using manual setup or the field link. Settings are in fixed increments (similar to the EZ-Run setting card) and there is no access to the throttle and brake curves. The PC Link offers infinite increments and throttle and brake curves.

Once I have my ESC setup at home on the PC I rarely need to change a setting in the field. I also have the Castlelink installed in a laptop that I take most places with me so it's no problem if I do. Changing the system to a different model is about the only time I ever need to connect it again after I get the setup working how I want it (then I save the profile in the PC so it can be reloaded easily).

Most certainly it's easier to use the field card or PC link than to count LED flashes in a manual setup. Castlelink cable/adapter/software or field cards are not included with the combo.

[kaiser 8]

FWIW my brand new hobbywing 2250kv 1/8 scale motor died after 2 batteries, the sensor bolts backed out and fell into the rotor.

this is the first hobbywing failure i have expierienced. nothings perfect.

esc, won't work either now.

i just needed to say that after i "bashed" castle earlier in the thread.

[backtomyroots 432]

Don't forget about Hobby King, good prices there too:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/u...?idCategory=284

[Rob Buckle 1]

Folks,

Sorry for the delayed response. I returned from a week long holiday yesterday.

Thanks to all for helping me understand about brushless motors/ESCs. I have just gone and purchased the Castle Creations Sidewinder SCT combo (x2). I'll purchase the Castlelink separately.

I'll check out the combo when it eventually arrives and, if need be, experiment with gearing. But I'm not giving up on outrunner motors entirely! Expect that topic to be revisited in the future.

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Buckle 1]

Folks,

I'm still awaiting the Deans adapter (should arrive any day) but have prepared for my Clod's maiden brushless voyage by soldering on the battery Deans connectors and setting up the ESCs. I've also plugged the ESCs into the computer and through CastleLink changed the settings so that one motor runs in the opposite direction to the other.

The hard copy instructions that come with the motor/ESC combo states that when using a Futaba transmitter (as I am) you need to turn the throttle channel micro switch to 'reverse'. Am I correct in saying that this makes no dfference in my case given that I am running 2 motors and one of them will always be 'correct' when throttling forward?

Cheers,

[TA-Mark 195]

The hard copy instructions that come with the motor/ESC combo states that when using a Futaba transmitter (as I am) you need to turn the throttle channel micro switch to 'reverse'. Am I correct in saying that this makes no dfference in my case given that I am running 2 motors and one of them will always be 'correct' when throttling forward?

Cheers,

Switch the CH2 to reverse on all Futaba transmitters with all Castle systems.

Normally you would swap any 2 of the 3 motor wires to reverse the rotation direction of a sensorless Castle system. I've not seen any option for reverse rotation in the Castlelink software. Changing rotation direction with the ESC setup is usually only on sensored systems.

Use the "lowest" option for motor timing. High advance is not needed with how they perform. This also extends runtime and reduces any chances of cogging.

[Rob Buckle 1]

Hey Mark,

Switch the CH2 to reverse on all Futaba transmitters with all Castle systems.

Done.

Normally you would swap any 2 of the 3 motor wires to reverse the rotation direction of a sensorless Castle system. I've not seen any option for reverse rotation in the Castlelink software. Changing rotation direction with the ESC setup is usually only on sensored systems.

It's definitely an option when I connect the ESC up to the computer. If I go to the 'Basic' tab (2nd from left), about half way down the list is the dropdown 'motor direction'. I have the option of selecting 'normal' or 'reverse'. I have one ESC with one setting and the other ESC with the other setting. I can confirm that with the motors installed in the Clod, both 'normal' and 'reverse' motors run the same direction when throttling, which you would expect if the motors run opposite in reality.

Note that each gearbox was tested separately since I do not yet have my Deans adapter to run both ESCs/motors simultaneously.

Use the "lowest" option for motor timing.

It was set at 'normal (10)'. I've changed it 'lowest' as per your recommendation, thank you.

Can I ask your advice for a few other settings?:

1. At present 'Auto li-po volts/cell' (cutoff is set for 'auto') is 3.2v/cell. Is there any reason I should not reduce this to 3.1v/cell or even 3v/cell?

2. At present I have the 'punch control' set at 0%, reasoning that my 45C battery can produce the power the ESCs will demand. Do you think this is okay, or do you advise that I set it higher?

3. At present I have 'start power' set to 'medium'. Do you think that I will be safe (again, with my battery being 45C) setting it to 'high'?

Cheers,

[TA-Mark 195]

It's definitely an option when I connect the ESC up to the computer. If I go to the 'Basic' tab (2nd from left), about half way down the list is the dropdown 'motor direction'. I have the option of selecting 'normal' or 'reverse'. I have one ESC with one setting and the other ESC with the other setting. I can confirm that with the motors installed in the Clod, both 'normal' and 'reverse' motors run the same direction when throttling, which you would expect if the motors run opposite in reality.

Must be a new setting. Mine doesn't have it (Just plugged my newest Castle ESC to check). It is almost 2 years old though. Been almost 2 years since I've bought an electric kit. They sorta lost their appeal after the Baja 5B awesomeness.

1. At present 'Auto li-po volts/cell' (cutoff is set for 'auto') is 3.2v/cell. Is there any reason I should not reduce this to 3.1v/cell or even 3v/cell?

If you're using Li-Po, then the 3.2v per cell is fine and what I use. Reduces the risk of an under voltage situation which would leave the pack useless. Li-Po don't have memory and can charge from any charge state.

On Ni-Cd/Ni-MH set the cutoff to 0.9v per cell (Custom, then type the setting in), or you can leave the cutoff disabled.

2. At present I have the 'punch control' set at 0%, reasoning that my 45C battery can produce the power the ESCs will demand. Do you think this is okay, or do you advise that I set it higher?

Punch at 0% on Castle systems is "disabled" (Opposite to EZ-Runs). This means maximum punch as there is no control over it. 90% is the highest control over the punch (least amount). The closest I have to a MT with a Castle system is the Lunchbox (MM 5700Kv), and it still does standing backflips, or stands up into a wheelie at speed with it on 90% (minimum).

3. At present I have 'start power' set to 'medium'. Do you think that I will be safe (again, with my battery being 45C) setting it to 'high'?

Leave this setting on default unless there is a cogging issue on take off. Then, if there is cogging, trial and error the setting one step either side of default to remove the startup cogging.

[Rob Buckle 1]

Thanks Mark,

Settings applied. Now just awaiting that adapter. Come on adapter!

[Rob Buckle 1]

Well!

The adapter arrived today. I double checked each ESC's settings via my computer, then wired everything up, having snipped the red lead on one branch of the Y-harness. I hooked up the battery, switched on the controller then switched on the first of the 2 ESCs.

The ESC armed, then gave out an error signal.

Then I figured that maybe the ESC that I'd switched on was connected to the branch of the Y-harness with the red wire snipped. I switched on the other ESC.

"Housten, you are good to go".

Outside the house I cautiously ran the Clod forward and backwards slowly. It does suffer from cogging, but only from a standing start. Once it's moving even a little the issue disappears completely. I'll play with the ESC settings another day to try to address the issue.

All I can say is: Wow! I've finally found a motor I'm truly happy with. The Clod is so rapid now, and consequently so much more enjoyable to bash with. Performance is very significantly better than that obtained using Super Stock TZs, even when re-timed, in terms both of top speed and torque. I had a pretty decent session duration and still have 38% battery life remaining. Nice. By the end, the ESCs were not even warm to the touch and the motors were only very mildly warm to the touch.

The Clod wheel spins easily, so l'll probably try a larger pinion at some time to eek out a bit more speed and optimise the speed/torque ratio. I also intend to sort out the steering slop issue, which I'll now turn my attention to.

I would like to give a really big Thank You to all who gave me advice that helped get me to where I now am at. I can't tell you how pleased with the Clod I now am.

Rob

[TA-Mark 195]

Great to hear you got it to go as expected.

The ESC doesn't really errror, just has a no signal situation, so only plays half the tone, then flashes an LED until radio signal is present, then once all is right it will sound the second half of the tone and arm up. Good failsafe to prevent arming the system without control. Remember to switch on the one that powers the reciever first and it'll never do it. You could wire both ESCs into the one switch too.

I wouldn't have snipped the wire myself. Instead, removed it from the J-Connector, bent back out of the way and insulated with some shrink just incase I wanted to use it again one day in a single motor vehicle.

With regards to the start up cogging. How is the gearing? Is full throttle scary fast? Are you even getting to use full throttle? Dropping pinion size will also reduce cogging as well as the other program related settings we discussed earlier. The only time I've ever gotten my Castle systems to cog is when the model is rolling backwards, and I try to power forwards, which for any sensorless system, it's going to stutter a little until the motor is rotating the right direction.

All that's left now is a video. Gotta see how this bad boy goes

[Rob Buckle 1]

I wouldn't have snipped the wire myself. Instead, removed it from the J-Connector...

Remember it was the wire forming the Y-harness that I snipped, not the same coloured wire of the ESC lead. I don't mind snipping the former, whereas I am reluctant to snip the latter, for exactly the reason you gave. Remember too that the Y-harness has 1 male to 2 female ends, so I was unable to simply disconnect the red lead from one of the branches of the Y-harness as it was female.

With regards to the start up cogging. How is the gearing? Is full throttle scary fast? Are you even getting to use full throttle?

The gearing is stock 13t pinion (is that what you are asking? ). Yes, I can use full throttle, and yes it is very fast, though not quite 'insane' fast. It is certainly not possible to turn at speed except for gradual light steering. At low (realistically, not even 'lower') speed you can steer hard. I guess I would classify performance as 'fast approaching uncontrollable, but still controllable with care', if that makes sense.

Dropping pinion size will also reduce cogging as well as the other program related settings we discussed earlier.

I set 'start power' from medium to high, then to low, and settled on low, which seems to reduce cogging a bit. I then played around with a heap of settings to try to eliminate it fully but (so far) without success. That said, it is now only like one or two jolts before it runs more than cogging so if I find I can't improve starts further I will not be too bothered.

I was thinking about the attraction of speed vs torque this evening when bashing (sooo much fun!) and although I previously was primarily searching for speed, I think that actually I rather like the torque I now have. While seeing the Clod shooting along at speed is great, I now appreciate that it is seeing it accelerate so fast when the throttle is punched that impresses the most. Life is sweet.

All that's left now is a video. Gotta see how this bad boy goes.

I would love to shoot a small video and post it up but unfortunately I have no means to record video (I think). I expect to be purchasing a new camera body that will have this feature (even though I have no interest in video capability in a still camera), but we are looking at a few months from now. I will investigate the matter and see if I can find a way.

Cheers