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*** Dissatisfied with Tamiya petition ***

Dissatisfied with Tamiya poll  

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Lots of verbiage and twisted logic. You were not confrontational calling the one of the members a troll?

"Tamiya sold these manuals in the past as replacement parts, they might choose to sell them in a compendium book of manuals one day. If you could download all the manuals for free, that would take away Tamiya's option to do that." When? Between now and decades from now? Tamiya is restricting the flow of information to maintain or repair their vehicles it's customers purchased decades ago. Tamiya can do whatever it pleases, but it has not addressed this issue. Period.

Besides, making them available for free does not "take away Tamiya's option to do that". They can still release the book(s), and people who think it's worthwhile to have will buy it. Anyway, such books would likely have additional contents making them worthwhile, like any such book out there.

But I don't think you will change HunterZero's mind. He came down extremely aggressively on me when I pointed out Tamiya themselves didn't seem to know what distribution scheme to use, since the four sites they offer free manuals at all have different downloading conditions :P . Tamiya Japan's site is the most restrictive, Tamiya France has the most clear-cut license, TamiyaUSA(!) and Tamiya Germany lack conditions for downloadable content ;) . I've also already made the "free contents is free to distribute unless explicitly forbidden"-argument...I got the same reaction as you did.

". . .you confusing copyright with consumer protection?" No I did not, and in certain cases like this they intersect. You still haven't addressed the issue when information has entered the public domain for long periods of time. You sound like a believer of perpetual copyright.

The manuals have been out there for too few years to actually fall under the proper public domain (the term is 50 years or so, unless it's something that has entered common usage, e.g. "Googling" for "searching the internet"). On the other hand, Tamiya themselves making them available for free with no further conditions... Also, it's impossible in practice to make copyright or licenses act retroactively (for good reasons, imagine the mess it would cause...), so if you downloaded something for free several year ago and there were no restricting conditions that still applies today.

"If you think there's no legal barrier, why are you all getting cranky at TamiyaClub for taking the manuals down? What's stopping you from setting up a website with all the manual scans on it, and taking the risk, if you feel you are in the clear to distribute these manuals for free?" Because I'm lazy & I do not have all the manuals. Incidentally, I would urge the various Tamiya forum sites like TC to compile all the manuals on a zip file & make them available from a downloading service while it lasts.

It's likely Tamiya took offense at paying for the higher resolution manuals. They still haven't tried to take down the sites hosting manuals for free download, have they?

"Fair use in the USA is a horribly vague law, is tested case by case depending on what is being copied, how much is being copied, who copies it and how it is distributed, but I would not be taking the risk in this scenario." It's "horribly vague" because of the ethical & practical issues mentioned above.

Copyright law in general is written in generalities, because otherwise society would get completely locked up in copyright wars. You could not even buy a carrot because someone would insist that you paid royalties for the process the whole carrot went through from field to shop...

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Lots of verbiage and twisted logic.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

You were not confrontational calling the one of the members a troll?

This is the same member you told to cry you a river? I was not confrontational to you.

When? Between now and decades from now?

Why ask me? As the copyright holder, that's their right to choose. Or never, until their copyright expires.

Eg, Tamiya might currently use the Tamiya manuals on their site as a way to entice traffic, so people look at their other products. If they allowed others to redistribute copies elsewhere, then that takes away Tamiya's site traffic. You can see why they wouldn't want that from a business perspective.

Tamiya is restricting the flow of information to maintain or repair their vehicles it's customers purchased decades ago. Tamiya can do whatever it pleases, but it has not addressed this issue. Period.

These kits are decades old, the versions of those kits represented in those instructions are no longer available for sale new. Tamiya sold all the old kits with a manual, they can't help it if the manuals were separated from the cars over the years. They've fulfilled their obligation.

Companies can't support their products forever, as much as we'd like them to. The only people who care about being able to get copies of the old manuals are us collectors, and we're a small group. It could even confuse customers who bought the newer kits and arent collectors, if Tamiya have original and re-issue versions of the manuals available side by side online.

I do agree it would be very nice if Tamiya had all the vintage manuals online, but it's not a deal breaker for me, as it seems to be for other people. I don't feel I am entitled to have them. But the internet is a very new phenomenon, companies are still adjusting to its impact.

You still haven't addressed the issue when information has entered the public domain for long periods of time. You sound like a believer of perpetual copyright.

That's a bit of a random statement, isn't it? This is not the issue, and I had no idea it even needed a mention. The manuals are still far too new to be out of copyright.

You haven't answered my questions about laws or precedents that say if you get something for free, or that you can't currently buy it, or if the copyright owner doesn't make it available to you for free, that automatically entitles you to redistribute copies of it as long as you don't charge for it? It certainly doesn't work like that in Australia. Citing "fair use" isn't enough, when the definitions even of USA fair use don't cover this situation in the definition I am familiar with.

It still puzzles me that the internet and the ease with which people can publish documents to the world, has come with a rise in the expectancy of people to receive and redistribute published content for free.

The default copyright law is we aren't allowed to wholesale redistribute full copies to the internet unless Tamiya gives us permission. No fair use applies in this case, or if it does, it's extremely questionable, and not worth the risk.

The fact that Tamiya gives away free copies of some modern PDFs just means they'd be hard pressed actually winning any damages if they did try and take someone to court for distributing copies, so it wouldn't be worth their while and they probably wouldn't bother unless they were actually selling copies.

- James

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And no sir I am not a Troll, in fact I despise such people. And you can believe me or not I don't care. I only collect what I like and sell what I don't need afterwords to someone else. And thank you, I am enjoying my HPI Baja 5B tremendously!!

I'm sorry for that - It was meant to be tongue in cheek, as you had said you were expecting some heat :P

I was tired of the stream of posts of people who were saying they'd never buy Tamiya again, all over this silly manuals issue. It's such a non-issue to me that Tamiya would protect their copyright.

- James

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Boycotting Tamiya products over this is hurting no one but the people that choose to do it. It's a bit silly and very "toys out of pram". More importantly, it's not going to make the slightest bit of difference to Tamiya, so why bother?

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All this discussion and protesting is all good people. Remember that if you sit back and say nothing at all, then there is no chance of anything happening. You just don't sit back and take it and say "Oh well, that's the way it is then" If you are dissatisfied, then stand up and let it be known. If Tamiya does look at this site, then maybe they might do something that will make us happy and sort out the situation. If we don't have a voice, we don't get heard.

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All this discussion and protesting is all good people. Remember that if you sit back and say nothing at all, then there is no chance of anything happening. You just don't sit back and take it and say "Oh well, that's the way it is then" If you are dissatisfied, then stand up and let it be known. If Tamiya does look at this site, then maybe they might do something that will make us happy and sort out the situation. If we don't have a voice, we don't get heard.

+1

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All this discussion and protesting is all good people. Remember that if you sit back and say nothing at all, then there is no chance of anything happening. You just don't sit back and take it and say "Oh well, that's the way it is then" If you are dissatisfied, then stand up and let it be known. If Tamiya does look at this site, then maybe they might do something that will make us happy and sort out the situation. If we don't have a voice, we don't get heard.

So please guys, write to them and let them know. I did.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

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I let them know with a letter and a picture. Sitting back and doing nothing is the worst possible thing you could do at a time like this. Don't let bullies push you around, do something about it instead. And trust me boycotting Tamiya isn't going to hurt me one bit, thank you very much! But it will send Tamiya a message if enough of us do it.

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I'm all for polite letters pleading to Tamiya's sense of goodwill to reconsider and allow TamiyaClub to host the manuals for free. But don't write the letter like Tamiya owe it to you or have done you wrong, that approach won't get very far. I believe a couple of members have already sent polite letters. Mailing a letter will probably have more impact than an email.

But I don't expect Tamiya would turn around and give permission.

Tamiya aren't intending to be the bully as far as I'm concerned. They are just protecting what's theirs to protect.

- James

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And trust me boycotting Tamiya isn't going to hurt me one bit, thank you very much!

And it'll hurt them even less.

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There is 2 camps in this thread and one is never going to convince the other.

As the title says "Dissatisfied with Tamiya" let the dissatisfied camp express there views here as this is why this was started in the first place.

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The 'poll' was added as it was impractical to control who posted what, or to accurately guage whether it was a yes or a no without confirming it with each poster.

Therefore, the poll should be the main focus of this thread as far as those 'dissatisfied' goes - that way, Tamiya can check back periodically and see how many people they've upset without reading loads of pages of discussion.

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Even better if we can keep it at that (just votes) Andy!

Yeah, be nice wouldn't it :D

If this thread was votes only, there'd be another to discuss it anyway - just set your mental filter to ignore any posts with lots of asterisks in the title and you should be ok.

My spider-sense can predict when my wife's gonna say "garden centre" now - you just need to practice a bit of psychic avoidance :)

Today's chant;

"6 asterisks bad"

repeat as necessary

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So please guys, write to them and let them know. I did.

Cheers,

Alistair G.

I know Im gonna regret this BUT

Did they reply? :D

I have to say but whats the point in this thread, yes I would like repro decals and manuals on TC but its happened, nothing is gonna change no matter how few of you post in poll or write to Tamiya as the members of TC who purchase Tamiya goods is a very small drop in the ocean of their sales. Just move on.

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Did they reply? :)

No. Now there's a suprise... and even though I contacted them via The Hobby Company Limited, who passed it on to the relevant department of Tamiya Japan, they must have my e-mail address as it's in the e-mail.

Not that I wanted a reply, I just wanted to vent my frustration at them.

So, Mr. Tamiya, where am I going to buy my decals from to complete my 1979 Sand Scorcher? Oh I'm sorry is it a crime that I prefer it to your 2010 Sand Blitzer with it's fake decals and where you released the body from a different car ?

:D

Cheers,

ARG

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So, Mr. Tamiya, where am I going to buy my decals from to complete my 1979 Sand Scorcher? Oh I'm sorry is it a crime that I prefer it to your 2010 Sand Blitzer with it's fake decals and where you released the body from a different car ?

The decals to complete a 1979 Scorcher haven't been available for years - surely you weren't thinking of using repros were you?

For someone that objected to the re-re body shape, I'm surprised you'd even think about using fake decals :D

How can you "complete" a 1979 Scorcher with anything less than original decals?

This is the problem with repros!

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So, Mr. Tamiya, where am I going to buy my decals from to complete my 1979 Sand Scorcher?

:D

Cheers,

ARG

Err ebay!

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The decals to complete a 1979 Scorcher haven't been available for years - surely you weren't thinking of using repros were you?

For someone that objected to the re-re body shape, I'm surprised you'd even think about using fake decals :D

How can you "complete" a 1979 Scorcher with anything less than original decals?

This is the problem with repros!

You're the man!!! :)

Funny as RC. I'll get the popcorn and soda...

Badboy

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The decals to complete a 1979 Scorcher haven't been available for years - surely you weren't thinking of using repros were you?

For someone that objected to the re-re body shape, I'm surprised you'd even think about using fake decals :D

How can you "complete" a 1979 Scorcher with anything less than original decals?

This is the problem with repros!

Not got the 100 GBP it takes to have real original 1979 decals from Ebay. I don't mind using much cheaper but good quality reproductions, I don't care what brand the parts are as long as they look just like the originals.

Cheers,

ARG

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I don't care what brand the parts are as long as they look just like the originals.

None of the repros look like the originals; the Champion decal is always 'tidied up' on the fakes, whereas the red and black weren't aligned properly on the original :D

You may as well use a Blitzer nose cone :)

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Companies suing eBay for allowing the peddling of fakes is nothing new, http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?...st&p=420375

From 2006; http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/94043/fashion-...unterfeit-sales

The real worry is this though;

L'Oreal claims eBay is liable for sales on its website of counterfeit goods and "parallel imports" - L'Oreal products not intended for sale in the EU.

So, if a Tamiya kit is 'territory specific' for any reason (T Shirt, Bag, ESC etc.) the sale of it on eBay may be prohibited too :D

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