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*** Dissatisfied with Tamiya petition ***

Dissatisfied with Tamiya poll  

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It seems that they have finally been brought into line by the ECJ?

Not yet, according to the headline; "eBay 'may be liable' for sale of fake goods, court says"

Could be the end of the import business in a few years time though

Not sure how successful previous cases have been though, heard a lot at the start and they either fizzled out or I missed the verdicts

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The real worry is this though;
L'Oreal claims eBay is liable for sales on its website of counterfeit goods and "parallel imports" - L'Oreal products not intended for sale in the EU.

So, if a Tamiya kit is 'territory specific' for any reason (T Shirt, Bag ESC etc.) the sale of it on eBay may be prohibited too :D

Now I really would be amazed if Tamiya pursued that line of thinking too. I cannot think of anything postive they would gain from it for themselves.

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Not yet, according to the headline; "eBay 'may be liable' for sale of fake goods, court says"

Could be the end of the import business in a few years time though

I could see ebay spending every last dollar fighting that one. How many of their sales can be attributed to imports? A LOT I would imagine.

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Now I really would be amazed if Tamiya pursued that line of thinking too. I cannot think of anything postive they would gain from it for themselves.

L'Oreal obviously saw the need, then you got region coded DVDs etc too.

I can't think why any company would ever benefit from restricting items for sale anywhere, but some of 'em do - Even Amazon.com restrict the sale of some goods to the UK - can't remember what it was now, but there didn't seem any reason for it.

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....then you got region coded DVDs etc too.

That one has never made any sense to me, especially when there are multi-region players in abundance.

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So I just read this thread and have a couple of observations:

1) Netsmith appeared - I thought he was like the old guy in the shed in Lost.

2) Someones got a field with trespassers looking after it for them?

3) A few people who have spent lots of money on Tamiya stuff are going to continue to do so

4) A few people who have spent lots of money on Tamiya stuff are going to stop

5) People in bedrooms can't make stuff and sell it anymore

Oh and this should ideally be a blank post and I should vote, but a blank post causes an error and a bit like in Syria there is only one radio button on the voting sheet - Fail.

6) Oh and last but not least can I have my hour back please :D

Paul

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:D

1-4 - Pretty much bang-on

5 - they can, but they can't sell it or advertise it on TC if it's a repro

6 - No, if it only took an hour you didn't do it properly

There is no fail, only try. Probably

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4) A few people who have spent lots of money on Tamiya stuff are going to stop

For some reason I think that's highly unlikely...

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So I just read this thread and have a couple of observations:

1) Netsmith appeared - I thought he was like the old guy in the shed in Lost.

2) Someones got a field with trespassers looking after it for them?

3) A few people who have spent lots of money on Tamiya stuff are going to continue to do so

4) A few people who have spent lots of money on Tamiya stuff are going to stop

5) People in bedrooms can't make stuff and sell it anymore

Oh and this should ideally be a blank post and I should vote, but a blank post causes an error and a bit like in Syria there is only one radio button on the voting sheet - Fail.

6) Oh and last but not least can I have my hour back please :D

Paul

7) Some people really just need to post "CRY MOAR!" as a link to an image of the "trollface" and be done with it.

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L'Oreal obviously saw the need, then you got region coded DVDs etc too.

I can't think why any company would ever benefit from restricting items for sale anywhere, but some of 'em do - Even Amazon.com restrict the sale of some goods to the UK - can't remember what it was now, but there didn't seem any reason for it.

Because they want to protect the higher prices they charge in some territories. We in Australia currently pay much higher prices than the rest of the world for things like European cars, digital cameras, iPods, books, DVD/Blu-Ray movies, video games, CDs, make-up and clothes. The Apple store even charges Australians a higher rate for music and apps. Same goes for Tamiya kits, the Sand Scorcher is A$450+ in shops here, but landed from Hong Kong including shipping at the moment is around A$150 less due to the strong dollar.

Australian retailers have abruptly come to the end of a retail boom with two major book chains and large clothes retailers going under, as more people are just importing everything themselves.

eBay is just another version of Amazon these days.

Amazon just bought out The Book Depository, for those who care.

- James

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Been away for a while and just checked out this thread.

I think everyone is going a little overboard,

Tamiya doesn't have a patten or copyright on everything

they make.

for instance blackfoot is trademarked by mrc.

and that's even currently abandoned.

they just came out with a blackfoot III with the ford body.

yeah it doesn't say ford but did that stop them!!!

we'll see if it says officialy liscenced ford body.

I understand there manuals,because there direct copy's.

but as long as the decals aren't exactly the same and the

names of the decals aren't tradmarked by tamiya

there's nothing they can do.

there just throwing thier weight around.

they have know right saying you can't do something

and they turn around and do it them selves.

only thing they have trademarked is thier "TAMIYA" name.

your tellin' me the own the rights to a "no guts no glory" decal.

come on!

just my thoughts.

skip

I'm not mad about it.

just mad i'm not in on it

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Also, the PDF files of the manuals are really just pictures if you think about it. They aren't picture files per say as I thought. But it isn't like they are copies by any means. So why don't boxes and the cars themselves fall under the same rules. I mean really they are saying we can't take a picture of a manual and post it? That is, well I don't have to tell you how stupid that really is. And if we can post pictures of the manuals. Just post them as jpgs instead of pdf. and the problem is solved. Seriously I'd like to see them complain about a picture of a page in a manual. That would be the cherry on the cake...

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Also, the PDF files of the manuals are really just pictures if you think about it. They aren't picture files per say as I thought. But it isn't like they are copies by any means. So why don't boxes and the cars themselves fall under the same rules. I mean really they are saying we can't take a picture of a manual and post it? That is, well I don't have to tell you how stupid that really is. And if we can post pictures of the manuals. Just post them as jpgs instead of pdf. and the problem is solved. Seriously I'd like to see them complain about a picture of a page in a manual. That would be the cherry on the cake...

The designs of the cars and parts and even the box art would come under copyright. All those cheap TL-01 knock-off cars from China breach Tamiya's copyright. They probably break any number of Tamiya's patents too.

Super Hornet Patent

The actual digital format (JPEG, PDF, TIFF) wouldn't matter either, they're all digital copies that present as facsimiles of the original printed material.

I am sure if you copied a page or two or even a whole manual and emailed it directly to someone who had that car and needed them, or if you were selling the manual and presented pictures of the manual you were selling, or even posting a picture with a step or two from the manual with circled bits to help someone out, then that would all be reasonable fair use. Surely, Tamiya aren't going to know or care, and they aren't going to complain. But redistributing entire manuals by uploading hi-res scans to the 'net for everyone to see and freely download goes beyond fair use, IMHO.

- James

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Tamiya doesn't have a patten or copyright on everything they make.

They do. You don't have to apply for copyright, any images and printed material they create are automatically covered by copyright. They do have to apply for patents, and Tamiya do patent their designs. If they didn't protect themselves this way, other model companies could reverse engineer and copy and sell their kits.

I understand there manuals,because there direct copy's. but as long as the decals aren't exactly the same and the names of the decals aren't tradmarked by tamiya there's nothing they can do.

You are right, Tamiya wouldn't care in that case, even if the sponsor decals were identical. The sponsor logos themselves are not Tamiya copyright, but the copyright will likely belong to the company that the logo represents. Tamiya have to get permission to reproduce the logos, and pay a licensing fee (which is why the newer re-re decal sheets contain fake logos so Tamiya don't have to bother licensing the original logos). Technically if you wanted to legally reproduce the sponsor decals, you'd have to do the same. So someone does care... How much they care about a small group of people reproducing their logo on stickers is another story. Probably not a lot.

they have know right saying you can't do something and they turn around and do it them selves.

This is the kind of statement I can't understand. How would you feel if you created a book or artwork to sell, and someone else started copying it and giving it away for free or making money from distributing it? Shouldn't you have the exclusive right?

your tellin' me the own the rights to a "no guts no glory" decal. come on!

No, they can't claim copyright to the "no guts, no glory!" phrase, and they'd have a hard time trying to trademark it. In fact, Tamiya themselves probably stole the phrase from a WW2 era P-47 Thunderbolt that bore that slogan. However, the "no guts, no glory!" font/lettering/artwork representation of the phrase on the Frog decal sheet Tamiya could potentially lay copyright to, in the context of model RC car decals. Tamiya would be more concerned about complete reproductions of decal sheets.

- James

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The designs of the cars and parts and even the box art would come under copyright. All those cheap TL-01 knock-off cars from China breach Tamiya's copyright. They probably break any number of Tamiya's patents too.

Super Hornet Patent

Yeah thing is though the patent has expired for the Super Hornet. The term was only for 14 years (probably maximum for the US), it is 10 years in Australia.

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Yeah thing is though the patent has expired for the Super Hornet. The term was only for 14 years (probably maximum for the US), it is 10 years in Australia.

Yeah it probably has. These are design patents, not functional utility patents, which is basically a way to protect the look of the car from being copied. I think the holder can extend design patents indefinitely if they choose and pay the fees, eg the Coca-Cola hobble skirt bottle. Copyright only covers aspects like artwork and the literature, eg manual and box art. 14 years is standard for a design patent. You'd probably be able to search patent databases and see the patents that Tamiya presently maintain.

The point was that Tamiya do go to the trouble to protect the stuff they create.

- James

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The point was that Tamiya do go to the trouble to protect the stuff they create.

- James

And I think a bigger point is not only do they do so, but they are REQUIRED to by law.

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And I think a bigger point is not only do they do so, but they are REQUIRED to by law.

That's only for trademarks. Patents and copyrights are not required to be defended in order for the current holder to keep them.

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Tamiya doesn't have a patten or copyright on everything they make.
They do. You don't have to apply for copyright, any images and printed material they create are automatically covered by copyright. They do have to apply for patents, and Tamiya do patent their designs. If they didn't protect themselves this way, other model companies could reverse engineer and copy and sell their kits.

Example:blackfoot stearing blocks

crp=identical design ,different color stronger material.

parma+ same thing

tie rods,bearings, antennas,gears, the list goes on and on.

I understand there manuals,because there direct copy's. but as long as the decals aren't exactly the same and the names of the decals aren't tradmarked by tamiya there's nothing they(tamiya) can do.
You are right, Tamiya wouldn't care in that case, even if the sponsor decals were identical. The sponsor logos themselves are not Tamiya copyright, but the copyright will likely belong to the company that the logo represents. Tamiya have to get permission to reproduce the logos, and pay a licensing fee (which is why the newer re-re decal sheets contain fake logos so Tamiya don't have to bother licensing the original logos). Technically if you wanted to legally reproduce the sponsor decals, you'd have to do the same. So someone does care... How much they care about a small group of people reproducing their logo on stickers is another story. Probably not a lot.
they have know right saying you can't do something and they turn around and do it them selves.

This is the kind of statement I can't understand. How would you feel if you created a book or artwork to sell, and someone else started copying it and giving it away for free or making money from distributing it? Shouldn't you have the exclusive right?

This is the kind of statement "I" can't understand

example: clodbuster body,take the chevy emblem off the grill and pump them out like popcorn?

they're doing it why can't I.

your tellin' me the own the rights to a "no guts no glory" decal. come on!

No, they can't claim copyright to the "no guts, no glory!" phrase, and they'd have a hard time trying to trademark it. In fact, Tamiya themselves probably stole the phrase from a WW2 era P-47 Thunderbolt that bore that slogan. However, the "no guts, no glory!" font/lettering/artwork representation of the phrase on the Frog decal sheet Tamiya could potentially lay copyright to, in the context of model RC car decals. Tamiya would be more concerned about complete reproductions of decal sheets.

now we have pattens on fonts and lettering

the keyword here is stole

I'll call my decals aftermarket cause they're thicker and stronger.

.

Thats the problem with big business ,they have the money and the lawyers to scare people

(and its working),where we don't have either.

Everything they make just about is a copy.

vanessa lunch box=dodge van

blackfoot III=ford stepside

even therough rider was copied

from someone else's design.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

again I'm not mad about it.I just think practice what you preach.

skip

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I just got a quick look at this thread, but how will this work for guide books actually?

Also there are still pretty some websites having the manuals uploaded actually...

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Thats the problem with big business ,they have the money and the lawyers to scare people...

...Everything they make just about is a copy.

vanessa lunch box=dodge van

blackfoot III=ford stepside

even the rough rider was copied

from someone else's design.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander...

...I just think practice what you preach.

And their lawyers will have advised them just how much they need to change in order for Tamiya not to infringe anyone else's work!

Your best bet is get legal advice as to what you need to do to get the decal sheets up and running again, and start up by yourself - there's not much competition at the minute - just hope no-one copies your work :lol:

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haven't read the developments of the thread but i'm adding my support (if it's not too late!)

+1

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The designs of the cars and parts and even the box art would come under copyright. All those cheap TL-01 knock-off cars from China breach Tamiya's copyright. They probably break any number of Tamiya's patents too.

Super Hornet Patent

The actual digital format (JPEG, PDF, TIFF) wouldn't matter either, they're all digital copies that present as facsimiles of the original printed material.

I am sure if you copied a page or two or even a whole manual and emailed it directly to someone who had that car and needed them, or if you were selling the manual and presented pictures of the manual you were selling, or even posting a picture with a step or two from the manual with circled bits to help someone out, then that would all be reasonable fair use. Surely, Tamiya aren't going to know or care, and they aren't going to complain. But redistributing entire manuals by uploading hi-res scans to the 'net for everyone to see and freely download goes beyond fair use, IMHO.

- James

"Term: 14 years." From issue date 1990. Time is up, and it must return to the public domain from where it came :lol:

This whole copyright / patenting argument is pointless, unless there is a serious discussion on the nature of copyright, and a reasonable consensus is reached. Instead, we are making emotional assertions based on what one person thinks is "fair," in the age of walt disney corporation's "life of the creator + 75 years." Honestly, it is a discussion I don't want to get into on TC. But, it is something to think about.

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