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*** Dissatisfied with Tamiya petition ***

Dissatisfied with Tamiya poll  

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Are you getting fed-up with Tamiya flexing their muscles by stopping Tamiyaclub hosting a library of vintage build manuals and offering repro decals, please post below.

No messages, just add a blank post below to show Tamiya the dissatifaction they are creating in the rc community................

** EDIT - it appears that many people didn't read/understand this first post, 'no messages, just add a blank post', so I have added a poll **

+1

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I have sent this letter to

cs@tamiya-inc.co.jp

http://www.tamiyausa.com/contact/cs_form/contact.php

https://secure.tamiya.com/forms/qe_form.htm

Dear Sir,

Re: Removal of old Tamiya RC build instruction manuals from websites, in particular tamiyaclub.com

During the past 15 days you have sent letters to various websites requesting immediate removal of scanned copies of old Tamiya RC model build instruction manuals. These manuals date back until 1974 and are for items no longer in production. They have been scanned and placed there by enthusiasts who wish to have a reference when they restore old models.

1. This letter is in particular reference to the hosting of such on tamiyaclub.com (TC hereafter). TC does not sell the manuals. It is not a shop. It is a website and forum for thousands enthusiasts for your products. Enthusiasts have not charged for the considerable efforts of finding, scanning, and sharing these online to help others.

2. By demanding removal of these 20-30year old manuals from TC you prevent enthusiasts being able to accurately restore old toys. Please note that the various official Tamiya Inc company websites tamiya.com & tamiyausa.com provide - for free, just like TC - some manuals; however what is provided is a very (frankly embarrassingly so) limited collection of mostly recent model manuals. If you are not providing a comprehensive list of old manuals for free, what are enthusiasts to do now? Do you expect them to have to purchase them on ebay? That gives no benefit to either Tamiya or one of your largest group of repeat, brand loyal, customers.

Tamiya proudly documents in its various company history books the story of it's founder, Mr. Tamiya, basing the company on Red Star for PASSION, Blue star for Precision. Where is the passion in threatening legal action against your companys biggest online fan group to remove 20 year old plus manuals that they offer for free, to help fans restore old toys?

There is no passion represented in that action. Therefore I am removing your RED STAR from your logo for the time being. You may have it back when passion appears to have returned to your minds. What were you thinking??? Shame on you.

This letter is also publicly posted:

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?...mp;#entry419070

-ATTN TamiyaUSA: I know this is not your doing, and my letter is not directed at you; rather will you please fwd it to where it may have most impact in Tamiya Inc. Thank you.

Please feel free to copy and do the same.

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Topics merged;

PS. I can read, but I don't think we need a third thread on this topic.

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Topics merged;

:P:wacko:

no prob, I did it so the email could hotlink to just the letter. I've amended it now to link to this thread.

And amended to include this link to Tamiya Inc in Japan, kindly provided by TamiyaUSA - thank you guys.

Come on, send a copy yourself Andy - you know you want to! ;):D

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From Netsmith;

Tamiya have agreed to take no further action with regard to infringements of copyright on both the decals and manuals on the site, in light of our swift cooperation and also the support we have shown them through the years.

From the beginning these items were always a grey area and I always said if Tamiya asked TC to stop we would do so - that time has come.

As part of my argument I did point out that were were simply providing a service to user who wanted to repair their old models and much of the information was no longer available.

Its my feeling the rereleases has stirred things up a little.

They understand the requirement for these manuals and point out that many are available as parts, and an increasing number are being made available via their own site.

The alternative to complying with their demands was the prospect of a long drawn out legal battle, with no guarantee of success. Either way there would be costs in time, money and stress I could not afford.

I appreciate your support throughout the matter but this particular fight is now over.

I know from experience that Tamiya are a 'funny' company to do business with (not just on this matter) so where as talk of petitions and letters are appreciated, I know they will a) not sway them and :wacko: are likely to antagonize them further.

So that's it. Unless anything changes, which seem highly unlikely, the manuals and decals are now gone from the site.

We must insist that manuals or links to manuals, artwork for decals or associated links are not published on this site anywhere. Please also do not ask me or anyone else associated with the running of the site for copies as we will not supply them.

Regards

Chris

So that's it - no more manuals on TC, and no more advertising copies of manuals or 'reproduction' decals.

Any trades offering or requesting such will be deleted I'm afraid

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From Netsmith;

I appreciate your support throughout the matter but this particular fight is now over.

I know from experience that Tamiya are a 'funny' company to do business with (not just on this matter) so where as talk of petitions and letters are appreciated, I know they will a) not sway them and :wacko: are likely to antagonize them further.

So that's it. Unless anything changes, which seem highly unlikely, the manuals and decals are now gone from the site.

Regards

Chris

Gutted, was really hoping that we could pursuade them.

Had nearly finished the email to send them, but as you say don't want to antagonise them which could cause further problems between them and Tamiyaclub.

If only they could understand what impact this has on us, their loyal customers, and how our perception of Tamiya has now changed.

It's a sad day,

:D

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Just had confirmation from Chris, all reproduction/copied parts are now not permitted as trades - this includes reproduction body shells, reproduction decals and reproduction driver figures, regardless of the original brand.

The last thing we need is this kicking off again with Kyosho, HPI etc.

If you have any such items in your traderoom on the main site, please delete them now - it might save me a few minutes.

It's going to take a couple of days to get to every trade, so if yours goes first, please don't complain that others have been left up.

Sorry guys :wacko:

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So long Tamiya! Last Subscription to TC as well........ All those loyal Tamiya people kicked to the curb. I'm sure there is a big party being thrown somewhere in China right now. They don't give copyrights any concern. They will swoop in and gladly supply the market. Still can't believe Tamiya is this short sighted and stupid.

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TamiyaUSA.com still has manuals available (quality aint great dough with older ones) how about giving them manuals to complete there database and replace the not so nice ones?

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The unacceptable & depressing face of Capitalism, where money rules all and logic goes out of the window.

Well sod them, I personally won't let them spoil this hobby for me. What it does go to show, if anyone was in any doubt, is that re-releases are all about the money and certain changes to those models were made to benefit the company and not show some respect to the original models & their owners. They just confirmed to us all that they don't give a hoot. I knew that anyway but it's still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

So as I said on the other thread, when does the community Scorcher come back to Tamiyaclub?

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The second forum shut down in as many days because we aren't allowed to make comment against Tamiya by the looks of things!! http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?...0&start=150

""I think we'll call it a day on this one too - anything that even smells of a repro/replica/tribute/copy decal sheet/bodyshell etc. will no longer be permitted on TamiyaClub either as a trade or a showroom entry.

Whether it's a repro/replica/tribute/copy in a legal sense or not, if it looks enough like them it could cause serious problems for TamiyaClub.

Any objections, please take them up with Netsmith"""

Twinset and Netsmith - Are you really going to trawl through all the showroom entries with repro bodies or decals on them? I fail to see how members having these items puts TC at risk - this is a club for goodness sake. I am starting to wonder if the continued negative reaction will have a terminal effect on this club? I for one certainly hope not. It shouldn't be Tamiya that tells us what we can and cant say on this site -I didn't think it was a crime to talk about repro stuff. I understand the trades piece despite not agreeing with it but that is your call as the owner/moderators of this site - remember the members fund this site.

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I agree what happend to freedom of speech ?

It never existed? <_<

Anyway, TamiyaClub can't legally get into trouble for allowing sales of Tamiya reproduction bodies and decal sheets in large numbers from the same seller (suggesting production of the sheets), as Tamiyaclub is involved in the production and actual distribution of the decals. Also, if someone bought a repro body or decal sheet in the past, they cannot be blamed for owning it and wanting to sell it again, which technically renders the item second hand.

Despite this, I understand that mass sales of reproduction decals are not appreciated on TC, as Tamiya is likely to step to TC and not to the actual seller. However, for individual sales (because the decal sheet is technically second hand), Tamiyaclub can simply not be held responsible. Therefor I think TC should not intervene unless decal sets are clearly produced and sold en masse in the traderoom.

It's simply stupid though to also prohibit showroom entries with reproduction item(s) in is. As long as they don't suggest that the entry is meant to 'sell' the decals, that is. In fact, reproduction decals for individual use are legal from what I know.

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You can have your say as much as you want and slate Tamiya 'til your eyes bleed, but there's no point discussing ways of getting around a ban on repro goods as it'll make no difference.

This thread's now been merged with the thread already in existence where you can register you angst, it was obvioulsy too difficult to find <_<

Twinset and Netsmith - Are you really going to trawl through all the showroom entries with repro bodies or decals on them? I fail to see how members having these items puts TC at risk - this is a club for goodness sake. I am starting to wonder if the continued negative reaction will have a terminal effect on this club? I for one certainly hope not. It shouldn't be Tamiya that tells us what we can and cant say on this site -I didn't think it was a crime to talk about repro stuff. I understand the trades piece despite not agreeing with it but that is your call as the owner/moderators of this site - remember the members fund this site.

Models with repro items on them will not be removed, what will and has been removed are trade and showroom entries offering and showcasing repro goods - Decals, bodyshells, etc.

Chris has agreed to these measures.

Perhaps you should contact Chris if you think this is a step too far, but don't just assume "Tamiya that tells us what we can and cant say on this site"

In case you memory's not up to much;

Tamiya have agreed to take no further action with regard to infringements of copyright on both the decals and manuals on the site, in light of our swift cooperation

That cooperation included removing ads for repro goods etc. and it's not a crime to talk about repro stuff, but having an active discussion on how to present repro decals but not as repro decals is not in the clubs best interests.

Subscribers fund the site, and the hundreds that have no interest in repro goods would probably not be too happy if it were to be closed down because of the short-sightedness of a few forum members.

Anyway, TamiyaClub can't legally get into trouble for allowing sales of Tamiya reproduction bodies and decal sheets in large numbers from the same seller (suggesting production of the sheets), as Tamiyaclub is involved in the production and actual distribution of the decals. Also, if someone bought a repro body or decal sheet in the past, they cannot be blamed for owning it and wanting to sell it again, which technically renders the item second hand.

Despite this, I understand that mass sales of reproduction decals are not appreciated on TC, as Tamiya is likely to step to TC and not to the actual seller. However, for individual sales (because the decal sheet is technically second hand), Tamiyaclub can simply not be held responsible. Therefor I think TC should not intervene unless decal sets are clearly produced and sold en masse in the traderoom.

It's simply stupid though to also prohibit showroom entries with reproduction item(s) in is. As long as they don't suggest that the entry is meant to 'sell' the decals, that is. In fact, reproduction decals for individual use are legal from what I know.

In case you missed it Chris, as the owner of TamiyaClub, has been threatened with legal action if the manuals, TC decals and repro trade items were not removed.

Tamiyaclub is no longer involved in their production or distribution - try reading this when you get a minute; http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=62588

The sale of repro items, whether they're second hand or not is no longer permitted on TC

If this topic degenerates into yet another discussion on what's legal and what's not with regard to the manufacture and sale of repro items, it will be locked too - If you want to use it to air your views regarding Tamiya as a company, carry on.

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+1 + vote done

how can you have a vote with one thing to vote for?

buy new kits.. take them out and play with them.. box art sucks use some inventiveness and passion and make new designs, and if this site gets so anal that it wont let people discus how to fix a car / what parts are needed then it can go the way of the dodo. Have you seen any other RC site that doesnt allow people to discus it and post page scans from manuals?

lets just move on and enjoy our toy cars.. and stop bellyaching about someone managing copyright

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.....if this site gets so anal that it wont let people discus how to fix a car / what parts are needed then it can go the way of the dodo. Have you seen any other RC site that doesnt allow people to discus it and post page scans from manuals?

As far as I'm aware that has not been laid down as part of the new rules. Perhaps Admin can clarify though. For example...

* Would a thread be pulled where a member is describing their restoration of a car, and included in that thread are photos/description of repro parts that were used?

* Would a thread that included a jpeg taken from a manual be pulled?

* What would happen to a thread where a member merely asks if there is a resource for acquiring repro items?

Models with repro items on them will not be removed, what will and has been removed are trade and showroom entries offering and showcasing repro goods - Decals, bodyshells, etc.

So if I list my newly acquired ***** Supershot bodyset with some bumph along the lines of "Here is my repro Supershot bodyset, soon to be used on a runner" it will get pulled? If so then what is the legal justification for that?

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* Would a thread be pulled where a member is describing their restoration of a car, and included in that thread are photos/description of repro parts that were used?

* Would a thread that included a jpeg taken from a manual be pulled?

* What would happen to a thread where a member merely asks if there is a resource for acquiring repro items?

So if I list my newly acquired ***** Supershot bodyset with some bumph along the lines of "Here is my repro Supershot bodyset, soon to be used on a runner" it will get pulled? If so then what is the legal justification for that?

Jesus H Christ - is it really so difficult - TC can't possibly cover every possible combination in the rules - are you really prepared to risk the future of TamiyaClub just to be clever or flick the vs at Tamiya?

The guy that owns the club has had his collar felt by a major international company, and agreed certain measures - if it looks like these rules/requests are being ignored, and he's got any sense at all, he'll close the club before it gets out of hand.

Currently the request covers whole manuals not being posted, to be safe, assume that applies to individual pages too;

We must insist that manuals or links to manuals, artwork for decals or associated links are not published on this site anywhere.

Please also do not ask me or anyone else associated with the running of the site for copies as we will not supply them.

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Jesus H Christ - is it really so difficult - TC can't possibly cover every possible combination in the rules - are you really prepared to risk the future of TamiyaClub just to be clever or flick the vs at Tamiya?

The guy that owns the club has had his collar felt by a major international company, and agreed certain measures - if it looks like these rules/requests are being ignored, and he's got any sense at all, he'll close the club before it gets out of hand.

Currently the request covers whole manuals not being posted, to be safe, assume that applies to individual pages too;

You need to calm down pal, I'm actually trying to help you out here. The questions I asked were perfectly legitimate and this needs to be thrashed out and then referenced as a sticky in the TC rules section so that we can all move on. Carry on having an attitude like the one you are displaying and I suspect that you will drive away far more members than big bad Mr Tamiya. You might wish to swiftly brush this under the carpet and pretend that nothing major has happened within the last few weeks but alas that is not the case which means that if you don't properly address it now you are going to spend half of your life as a moderator contstantly chasing members for fear of upsetting the machine.

Someone can correct me here if I am wrong but as far as I am aware there is absolutely no legal justification for removing a showcased repro item, so long as it is clear in said showcase that the item is not for sale and furthermore there are is no hint that it might be in the future. Unless reproduction items for model cars are classified by the law in the same terms as class A drugs?

Is it against the law in any country to make something yourself that looks similar or identical to another item, so long as you do not put that item up for sale? And that's a genuine question, by the way.

As far as manual scans go, if I take a photo of a page from one of my manuals and jpeg it on the forum I'm merely showing you something that I own. How can that be construed as being a wrong thing to do? Following that bizarre logic then I'm also in the wrong if I put up a photo of one of my cars because that's not really my property either?

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