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*** Dissatisfied with Tamiya petition ***

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You need to calm down pal, I'm actually trying to help you out here. The questions I asked were perfectly legitimate and this needs to be thrashed out and then referenced as a sticky in the TC rules section so that we can all move on. Carry on having an attitude like the one you are displaying and I suspect that you will drive away far more members than big bad Mr Tamiya. You might wish to swiftly brush this under the carpet and pretend that nothing major has happened within the last few weeks but alas that is not the case which means that if you don't properly address it now you are going to spend half of your life as a moderator contstantly chasing members for fear of upsetting the machine.

Someone can correct me here if I am wrong but as far as I am aware there is absolutely no legal justification for removing a showcased repro item, so long as it is clear in said showcase that the item is not for sale and furthermore there are is no hint that it might be in the future. Unless reproduction items for model cars are classified by the law in the same terms as class A drugs?

Is it against the law in any country to make something yourself that looks similar or identical to another item, so long as you do not put that item up for sale? And that's a genuine question, by the way.

As far as manual scans go, if I take a photo of a page from one of my manuals and jpeg it on the forum I'm merely showing you something that I own. How can that be construed as being a wrong thing to do? Following that bizarre logic then I'm also in the wrong if I put up a photo of one of my cars because that's not really my property either?

Unbelievable. Tell you what, email the owner and the guy getting the hassle and post up what he says, somewhere along the way something's getting lost in translation.

The law in this country, or any other is not relevant when he's agreed to certain measures to ensure TC continues

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In case you missed it Chris, as the owner of TamiyaClub, has been threatened with legal action if the manuals, TC decals and repro trade items were not removed.

Tamiyaclub is no longer involved in their production or distribution - try reading this when you get a minute; http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=62588

The sale of repro items, whether they're second hand or not is no longer permitted on TC

If this topic degenerates into yet another discussion on what's legal and what's not with regard to the manufacture and sale of repro items, it will be locked too - If you want to use it to air your views regarding Tamiya as a company, carry on.

I did see that, and I can understand the decision as long as it doesn't result in a hunt to censor every time 'repro' is written down somewhere <_< I also hope that for example when a car has a bodyshell which happens to have repro decals on it would still be sell-able on TC - Otherwise it would mean people can't be honest about the items they sell if they want to sell it on TC.

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I did see that, and I can understand the decision as long as it doesn't result in a hunt to censor every time 'repro' is written down somewhere <_< I also hope that for example when a car has a bodyshell which happens to have repro decals on it would still be sell-able on TC - Otherwise it would mean people can't be honest about the items they sell if they want to sell it on TC.

No, cars with repro parts on them will not be deleted as far as I'm aware, neither will trade items that mention repro parts have been used, providing it's not some clever ad for an M3 screw which comes with a set of free repro decals and a copied bodyshell

What has already been deleted (either by admin or the sellers themselves after seeing the original forum threads) are repro body shells for sale, resin/plastic copies of kit parts (driver dolls etc) and stuff like that.

This whole situation is a serious threat to TamiyaClub's future, so until Chris has posted up the new rules in their entirety, please exercise a little caution and restraint

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Chill Out all. The past week has been a tough pill to swallow. There will be winners and losers. As much as I am frustrated at the decision by Tamiya I respect TC's position wholeheartedly. With showrooms descriptions we will just have to be careful how we describe our cars, you don't have to explain parts, decals sourced to that detail. A decal on a car in a photograph doesn't need a history lesson where it came from etc.....We just have to adapt and respect TC's position.......I don't want the showrooms or forums to vanish.

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Unbelievable. Tell you what, email the owner and the guy getting the hassle and post up what he says, somewhere along the way something's getting lost in translation.

The law in this country, or any other is not relevant when he's agreed to certain measures to ensure TC continues

There is nothing lost in translation. Legally the club and it's members are forbidden from selling reproduction items and giving links to other sales of reproduction items. I 150% respect Tamiya's legal entitlement to that & also completely support Chris' decision to fully co-operate with it. They are also forbidden from listing manuals or linking to manuals. I'm merely asking what constitutes as a listing and why I can't provide a photo & description of a repro item that I own, or why a photo taken of a page from a manual that I own is so off limits. Not too much to ask really.

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There is nothing lost in translation. Legally the club and it's members are forbidden from selling reproduction items and giving links to other sales of reproduction items. I 150% respect Tamiya's legal entitlement to that & also completely support Chris' decision to fully co-operate with it. They are also forbidden from listing manuals or linking to manuals. I'm merely asking what constitutes as a listing and why I can't provide a photo & description of a repro item that I own, or why a photo taken of a page from a manual that I own is so off limits. Not too much to ask really.

The grey area is whether your posting of a page of a manual you own constitutes a breach of the agreement Chris has with Tamiya - I suggest you ask him for advice on the matter.

Until you've established his take on the situation, please don't post up scans or photos of manual pages.

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I'm merely asking what constitutes as a listing and why I can't provide a photo & description of a repro item that I own, or why a photo taken of a page from a manual that I own is so off limits. Not too much to ask really.

If Tamiya are getting bullish over this (and they obviously are for whatever reason) then it's probably not worth antagonising them by photographing manuals. Wouldn't you say? The manuals issue is strangely academic anyway since in all my years here at TC I've very rarely seen a photograph of a manual in the forums or in a showroom entry. It's certainly not an issue worth risking a legal fight with Tamiya over.

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Hi Guys

I appreciate all the support and well intended advice thats been sent to me since this all kicked off. Its must appreciated.

For those that want us to put up more of fight over this, I'm afraid thats just not going to happen. The resolution between myself and Tamiya is final. I will not be challenging or testing them further. Sorry I know that will be a disappointment and inconvenience to some but I will not personally take the risk any further and I will not risk the club as a whole over the matter.

Just to put this in a bit of context since day one of hosting the manuals and producing the decals, I have always stated that this was just to provide a service for our members and that if Tamiya ever asked me to stop doing it I would.

The bottom line is as much as people mean well, and as much as people may see potential loop holes etc. It is me, and therefore the club, taking all the legal and financial risk. If, in a court of law some of that 'advice' does not hold up when faced with an expensive legal team challenging it, then those giving the 'advice' can just walk away having learnt something new. It will not be that easy for me. Personally I would rather the club be around for another 10 years, with outthe manuals and repro stuff, rather than risking everything I own in challenging Tamiyas stance on this.

The manuals have been copied and republished loads of times now all over the web and if anyone really wants to find them then google is your friend. All we are saying is TC can no longer host them or provide advertising to places that do host them. I am not interested in finding ways around the decision that 'might' be ok. Its not worth the risk. People can use the private messaging service to ask for, or give links to anything they want. As for the sale of the decals that had been dwindling for a long time since so many others starting doing the same at a much lower price - so few people used this service, that it certainly is not worth further troubles with Tamiya trying to keep it going.

In terms of some specific questions from the thread above:

  • Will we be trawling through every thing ever posted for the use of repro bits - no. Obviously thats not possible.
  • Will remove any images that contain photos containing repro parts or manuals, again no - UNLESS its felt that those photos are being posted to promote the sale or availability of reproduction (real or electronic)
  • eg a picture of a manual, a stack of manuals, part of a page to illustrate a topic would all be fine. Close up pictures of the whole or majority of a manual will be deleted.
  • We also wont remove things like the alluminium bumpers, wild wendys, metal skid plates etc - but we will remove 1:1 resin copies of Tamiya parts.
  • If someone wants to make decals sheets and sell them for any models that is also fine as long as there is nothing on them which could be conceived to be originating from Tamiya copyrighted material (There is a good chance we will be making something along these lines at some point in the future) This is no different to any other third party decal provider.

If it helps running through a thousands examples of OK and NOT OK I'm happy to do that just ask away, but really the spirit of what we are trying (having) to do is simple. Nothing on this site can be seen to be or helping the sale or distribution of copies of Tamiya copyrighted material.

This forum will not stop anyone discussing what they think of Tamiya, that is not why any thread is closed down. We will close down threads though that actively encourage the distribution of tamiya copyrighted material. (this is no difference to a bands fan club forum, deleting links to where people can download 'free' mp3 of the bands songs)

PLEASE NOTE: Its my decision to extend this rule to all other manufacturers and brands. I don't want to go through this again. If you have permission to reproduce other manufacturers parts that I can verify then let me know. Just because something is old or not being sold anymore is not enough to justify it.

Hope this clarifies things and means everyone can move on.

Cheers

Chris

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Chris, many thanks for that.

Contrary to what some may think I was not trying to be pedantic, a smart-alec or give Tamiya the finger. The comment below is the exact reason I asked about using jpegs of manual snippets on the forum....

  • eg a picture of a manual, a stack of manuals, part of a page to illustrate a topic would all be fine. Close up pictures of the whole or majority of a manual will be deleted.

One of the greatest things about the forums is the ability to use jpegs of certain steps of a manual and close-ups of a part. There are many times when this occurs and it provides invaluable information about models. You only have to look at the FAV re-release thread to realise that and if we were to lose that then a superb part of the forum would be lost. That is what I was relating to when talking about posting a photo of my own from my own manual and I'm very happy we will not lose that. I'm also happy that parts can be showcased so long as the club rules are met.

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We also wont remove things like the alluminium bumpers, wild wendys, metal skid plates etc - but we will remove 1:1 resin copies of Tamiya parts.

Can I please point out (please don't take offense) that there are a few legit aftermarket companies out there that make parts that are very similar to the original parts because they have to fit into a certain location or because they have certain mechanical requirements? E.g. nylon replacement gears, suspension parts, universals...

An example would be aftermarket spur gears for Tamiya's F1 cars, which have a very specific design and may look almost exactly the same as the original parts. Only a close comparison may show some very minor differences. Often the only difference is better materials, which you may not be able to see on a picture.

Will those be removed too, or is there an exception for such parts?

If someone wants to make decals sheets and sell them for any models that is also fine as long as there is nothing on them which could be conceived to be originating from Tamiya copyrighted material (There is a good chance we will be making something along these lines at some point in the future) This is no different to any other third party decal provider.

Can this be clarified? Does 'originating from Tamiya' refer to, for example, the slogans on the rear wings of buggies? Hopefully it doesn't refer to generic sponsor decals that may also happen to be included on some of Tamiya's decal sheets...

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It would seem there are members who don't really ever get over to the Forums area, New rules may need to be highlighted on the main page...

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Thanks Chris for letting us know where you are at personally with regards to the sweeping changes imposed on you for the sake of Tamiyaclub continuing. I think the vast majority of us can appreciate the predicament you're in and the fact that you alone will pay the price if the new rules aren't adhered to. I don't think any of us would really challenge Tamiya if this was the reality we were personally faced with. Talk is pretty cheap being sued ain't...

James

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You can have your say as much as you want and slate Tamiya 'til your eyes bleed, but there's no point discussing ways of getting around a ban on repro goods as it'll make no difference.

This thread's now been merged with the thread already in existence where you can register you angst, it was obvioulsy too difficult to find :)

Models with repro items on them will not be removed, what will and has been removed are trade and showroom entries offering and showcasing repro goods - Decals, bodyshells, etc.

Chris has agreed to these measures.

Perhaps you should contact Chris if you think this is a step too far, but don't just assume "Tamiya that tells us what we can and cant say on this site"

In case you memory's not up to much;

That cooperation included removing ads for repro goods etc. and it's not a crime to talk about repro stuff, but having an active discussion on how to present repro decals but not as repro decals is not in the clubs best interests.

Subscribers fund the site, and the hundreds that have no interest in repro goods would probably not be too happy if it were to be closed down because of the short-sightedness of a few forum members.

In case you missed it Chris, as the owner of TamiyaClub, has been threatened with legal action if the manuals, TC decals and repro trade items were not removed.

Tamiyaclub is no longer involved in their production or distribution - try reading this when you get a minute; http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=62588

The sale of repro items, whether they're second hand or not is no longer permitted on TC

If this topic degenerates into yet another discussion on what's legal and what's not with regard to the manufacture and sale of repro items, it will be locked too - If you want to use it to air your views regarding Tamiya as a company, carry on.

Twinset - My memory is just fine thanks (even though my wife doesn't also think so) thanks for asking....lol. Chris has explained the lie of the land which has clarified the situation in respect to his stance/agreement with Tamiya.

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  • eg a picture of a manual, a stack of manuals, part of a page to illustrate a topic would all be fine. Close up pictures of the whole or majority of a manual will be deleted.

If it helps running through a thousands examples of OK and NOT OK I'm happy to do that just ask away, but really the spirit of what we are trying (having) to do is simple. Nothing on this site can be seen to be or helping the sale or distribution of copies of Tamiya copyrighted material.

Are you going to delete just the pictures, or the entire entry? I'd like to go back and edit my violations, but I am currently without subscription :)

-Steve

*Disclaimer* My posting on this thread is in no way meant to express any dissatisfaction with Tamiya or their actions.

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I've just been through my showroom and deleted or edited all the repro stuff I could see.

Pathetic form Tamiya......after all that Tamiyaclub has done for your bottom line.....disgraceful behavior.

I'll still support this forum every year.....not sure if I'll be supporting Tamiya though. Might stick to collecting vintages from now on.

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Hi Guys

I appreciate all the support and well intended advice thats been sent to me since this all kicked off. Its must appreciated.

For those that want us to put up more of fight over this, I'm afraid thats just not going to happen. The resolution between myself and Tamiya is final. I will not be challenging or testing them further. Sorry I know that will be a disappointment and inconvenience to some but I will not personally take the risk any further and I will not risk the club as a whole over the matter.

Just to put this in a bit of context since day one of hosting the manuals and producing the decals, I have always stated that this was just to provide a service for our members and that if Tamiya ever asked me to stop doing it I would.

The bottom line is as much as people mean well, and as much as people may see potential loop holes etc. It is me, and therefore the club, taking all the legal and financial risk. If, in a court of law some of that 'advice' does not hold up when faced with an expensive legal team challenging it, then those giving the 'advice' can just walk away having learnt something new. It will not be that easy for me. Personally I would rather the club be around for another 10 years, with outthe manuals and repro stuff, rather than risking everything I own in challenging Tamiyas stance on this.

The manuals have been copied and republished loads of times now all over the web and if anyone really wants to find them then google is your friend. All we are saying is TC can no longer host them or provide advertising to places that do host them. I am not interested in finding ways around the decision that 'might' be ok. Its not worth the risk. People can use the private messaging service to ask for, or give links to anything they want. As for the sale of the decals that had been dwindling for a long time since so many others starting doing the same at a much lower price - so few people used this service, that it certainly is not worth further troubles with Tamiya trying to keep it going.

In terms of some specific questions from the thread above:

  • Will we be trawling through every thing ever posted for the use of repro bits - no. Obviously thats not possible.
  • Will remove any images that contain photos containing repro parts or manuals, again no - UNLESS its felt that those photos are being posted to promote the sale or availability of reproduction (real or electronic)
  • eg a picture of a manual, a stack of manuals, part of a page to illustrate a topic would all be fine. Close up pictures of the whole or majority of a manual will be deleted.
  • We also wont remove things like the alluminium bumpers, wild wendys, metal skid plates etc - but we will remove 1:1 resin copies of Tamiya parts.
  • If someone wants to make decals sheets and sell them for any models that is also fine as long as there is nothing on them which could be conceived to be originating from Tamiya copyrighted material (There is a good chance we will be making something along these lines at some point in the future) This is no different to any other third party decal provider.

If it helps running through a thousands examples of OK and NOT OK I'm happy to do that just ask away, but really the spirit of what we are trying (having) to do is simple. Nothing on this site can be seen to be or helping the sale or distribution of copies of Tamiya copyrighted material.

This forum will not stop anyone discussing what they think of Tamiya, that is not why any thread is closed down. We will close down threads though that actively encourage the distribution of tamiya copyrighted material. (this is no difference to a bands fan club forum, deleting links to where people can download 'free' mp3 of the bands songs)

PLEASE NOTE: Its my decision to extend this rule to all other manufacturers and brands. I don't want to go through this again. If you have permission to reproduce other manufacturers parts that I can verify then let me know. Just because something is old or not being sold anymore is not enough to justify it.

Hope this clarifies things and means everyone can move on.

Cheers

Chris

Thankyou Chris for clarifying your the position you are in. I fully understand & respect your decision, anyone in your position(which none of us are) would be a fool not to take the same steps. I personally did not join TC for the manuals/decals but for the like minded community & the wealth of knowledge here. The main reason I became a subscriber was so I could create a showroom, somewhere I could point people to if they wanted to see my personal collection.

My main worry was if I could still post models from my personal collection in my showroom if they contained repro parts/decals. your post clears this up for me, thankyou.

IMO the Tamiya company is a business just like any other & as such making a profit is the bottom line, part of this is protecting their copyright. Anyone who thought they did things out of loyalty to their fans was being delusional.

My loyalty for the Tamiya brand will not change (their actions confirms what I thought of them anyway).

although I am sad to see such useful parts of the TC removed I understand it is for the greater good of keeping the site alive & I will remain a happy TC member for hopefully many years to come.

So lets all just accept this outcome(nothing we can do about it anyway) & move on.

MUZ

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It would seem there are members who don't really ever get over to the Forums area, New rules may need to be highlighted on the main page...

I had asked about this before & said some thing needed to be put on the main page . But oh well . Time will tell as i'm sure they are flat tack with all sorts of things . :)

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As I said before we will not be deleting any entry from the showroom because it may contain a repro bumper or decal or anything else. As long as we do not feel that the main purpose of that post is not to promote, sell, make available or direct people to items which may violate Tamiyas copyright.

I accept many 3rd party companies make after market parts which are very similar and again these being used on any model is not a problem. If the part is posted as a trade then we take a look and make a decision obviously if its a recognised part or company then no action will be taken. If its a 'back bedroom manufacturer' no-one has every heard of and it looks like its a direct rip-off of some Tamiya work then we probably will delete it.

I am sorry I cannot give you all a black and white rule, its obviously impossible - i think most are understanding the position we are in and what we are trying to do though. If you are really concerned as with every other rule ASK BEFORE POSTING or at the very least don't be offended if you post and your item is removed. This is not a case of trying to work out ways around this rule. If people are sensible, are posting pictures of legitimate items in all faith its ok then the chances are there will not be an issue. If you find yourself thinking "how do I get around this" or "I'm not sure if this is ok" there there is more likely to be an issue. At the end of the day if you make a mistake the mods will just clean up after you and let you know why they did. No hard feelings and nothing personal.

None of the mods have the ability to remove individual pictures from a post. So the whole post will be deleted. We've talked many times of giving people 24hrs/48rs to do it themselves but its really just abused. Its also clear that people want rules as black and white as possible so this keeps things simple. If we see something that we feel breaks the rules we will delete the whole post on sight.

Cheers

Chris

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All good Chris, I'm sure everyone understands and will try their best to abide by the rules that were forced upon the forum by Tamiya.

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I accept many 3rd party companies make after market parts which are very similar and again these being used on any model is not a problem. If the part is posted as a trade then we take a look and make a decision obviously if its a recognised part or company then no action will be taken. If its a 'back bedroom manufacturer' no-one has every heard of and it looks like its a direct rip-off of some Tamiya work then we probably will delete it.

I am sorry I cannot give you all a black and white rule, its obviously impossible - i think most are understanding the position we are in and what we are trying to do though. If you are really concerned as with every other rule ASK BEFORE POSTING or at the very least don't be offended if you post and your item is removed. This is not a case of trying to work out ways around this rule. If people are sensible, are posting pictures of legitimate items in all faith its ok then the chances are there will not be an issue. If you find yourself thinking "how do I get around this" or "I'm not sure if this is ok" there there is more likely to be an issue. At the end of the day if you make a mistake the mods will just clean up after you and let you know why they did. No hard feelings and nothing personal.

Okay, many thanks for the clarification. Can we assume that 1980s copies of Tamiya buggies are also safe, or are they banned?

Would it help you if a list of aftermarket manufacturers was compiled? Obviously some manufacturers are very obscure and it cannot be expected that the TC staff knows them all by heart.

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Greedy Tamiya. Were they loosing money by letting people view manuals online that they no longer sell, or reproducing graphics for models no longer available????

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Will the name be changed to Tamiyasclub.com now that they are calling the shots around here?

Just kidding of course :) Don't take offence. Just like Corpse Thrower and most people here, although dissapointing, everyone should continue to support the club and it's members.

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Are you getting fed-up with Tamiya flexing their muscles by stopping Tamiyaclub hosting a library of vintage build manuals and offering repro decals, please post below.

No messages, just add a blank post below to show Tamiya the dissatifaction they are creating in the rc community................

** EDIT - it appears that many people didn't read/understand this first post, 'no messages, just add a blank post', so I have added a poll **

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Please Mr Tamiya find a better way :)

PS you can't enter a blank post it generates an error message.

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