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*** Dissatisfied with Tamiya petition ***

Dissatisfied with Tamiya poll  

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Just to clarify, when I talk about spite I'm addressing their approach to TC, not ebay sellers. I'm on record as actually defending the action against those people.

Personally I think it's a question of extent. To use your land ownership analogy, it's all fine and dandy a few kids keeping it clean and playing football on it, but when they start holding regular matches with people coming along and paying to watch, its a different matter entirely. I think all the time a few people made a few quid selling decals or like TC printing manuals, then no big deal, but if everyone jumps on the band wagon then action has to be taken. For that action to be fair, then a blanket approach is the only way to keep things simple.

TC has (in theory, as the exact reasons for people's subscriptions can only be guessed at) been making money from the manuals for years and I highly doubt they have just become aware of that. I don't agree that it would be somehow difficult to keep the guillotine away from this club.

This is further complicated by the fact that the re-re's have taken off in the way that they have, and the fact that there's now so many of them. People selling repro SRB decals for example start to come in DIRECT competition with Tamiya themselves. 5 years ago where we didn't have so many re-re's if some guy was selling off repro Scorcher decals, no one gave a ****, and in actual fact keeping the Scorcher name fresh in peoples minds by allowing it, is actually, probably in Tamiyas best interest. Same goes for the manuals. With so many re-re's now available, and a whole load more in the pipleine (as far as we can ascertain), then the playing field (see what I did there) is now entirely different.

True, and again I defend them for going to war against the ebay crew. I think though that by showing just the slightest piece of postive discrimination towards Tamiyaclub would have generated huge good feeling on here and strengthened the commitment to the brand.

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I think though that by showing just the slightest piece of postive discrimination towards Tamiyaclub would have generated huge good feeling on here and strengthened the commitment to the brand.

Given the low number of 'yes' votes though, it would appear not many people care enough to vote anyway - If 85 (at time of typing) is the maximum they've upset, it's a drop in their ocean.

It'd be interesting to know how many of those 85 will honestly never buy another Tamiya product again ever though.

I won't be cutting my nose off to spite my face - If Tamiya produce something that warrants dishing out my cash, they'll get my cash

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Given the low number of 'yes' votes though, it would appear not many people care enough to vote anyway - If 85 (at time of typing) is the maximum they've upset, it's a drop in their ocean.

It'd be interesting to know how many of those 85 will honestly never buy another Tamiya product again ever though.

I won't be cutting my nose off to spite my face - If Tamiya produce something that warrants dishing out my cash, they'll get my cash

Me too. It would be daft to let this issue spoil the overall enjoyment of the hobby. It can't be denied though that it creates a bit of bad feeling, no matter how small, but more importantly IMO a huge opportunity to generate even more sales has just been missed.

As for votes, I wouldn't read too much into that. I'd guess that most people in this country care about what happens within it yet only about 50% of them ever bother to vote about it. Apathy abounds in everything these days. <_<

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Apathy abounds in everything these days. <_<

I can't be bothered to argue with that :lol:

There's no doubt it's a shame the decals and manuals are gone, but I can see why they are gone - any company would find it hard to ignore the repro market and the rumour that Kamtec was allegedly told to stop a couple of years back means it's not a new thing (if that's true)

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There's no doubt it's a shame the decals and manuals are gone, but I can see why they are gone - any company would find it hard to ignore the repro market and the rumour that Kamtec was allegedly told to stop a couple of years back means it's not a new thing (if that's true)

I just think it's a shame that they declined the opportunity to recognise TC's valueable contribution to their stake in R/C and the $$$$ that comes with it. The detail of how they went about it is pretty much irrelevant really.

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Could Tamiya allow the reproduction of their discontinued products with licensing agreements providing those products don't infringe the agreement previously made by Tamiya with other companies?

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declined the opportunity to recognise TC's valueable contribution

Seriously? TamiyaClub is not officially affiliated with Tamiya, and so ... They. Don't. Give. Two. Hoots. You really need to get over the fact that this club isn't as important to Tamiya even in the slightest as it is to us. It will only become important to them if they buy it out and the money used to run it is given to them, but given the relatively few people that use it, that buy out I'd say is pretty unlikely.

As far as they're concerned, we were just another guilty party making money out of their IP. How long we were doing it is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is for whatever reason they decided that now was the time to take action and put a stop to it.

That's all there is to it. Complaining about it, debating the reasons for it, deciding whether it was just or not, boycotting future Tamiya releases, isn't going to change a thing.

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It makes more sense to boycott tamiya over horrible customer support, making everything they sell limited edition, screwing over people time and time again with pomises they never keep, not listening to the customers outside of Japan; The reproduction market spung up because of the companies attitude, but didn't change it.

So you think a blurb on some forum matters. Get real. You want to make a statement sell off your collection on eBay I'm sure it will be picked up by everyone fast, making you happy to get rid of them, and others happy to own one.

Take your money and collect kyoshos they are almost as bad.

I was a dealer of tamiya I have all the letters Japan sent out promising parts support on all models for 5 years, lie.

Have the same letters from tamiya USA, lie, but they do what Japan wants.

At least yokomo had the foresight to fold up their tent and get off the continent.

My statement I took all their product off my shelves, threw it in the museum and sold kits that made my bottom line and customers happier, no need to take out a full page AD in RCCA over it or honor the poor souls that fell pray to the DF03 garbage <_<.

The company was the same 35 years ago as it is today and they wonder why they can't penetrate the serious competition market , grab those 502x and 201x buggies while you can they are already discontinued, and the next hot collecting item on eBay.

And here you are as a regular contributor to a site that promotes Tamiya kit.

Heh. Nice.

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Could Tamiya allow the reproduction of their discontinued products with licensing agreements providing those products don't infringe the agreement previously made by Tamiya with other companies?

I've looked into this and understand that it is a course of action that Tamiya could take should they wish, it would certainly sort the reproduction of manual and parts issues and with a little fettling probably most of the decal and body problems too.

So with this in mind and until Tamiya displays the will to find a better way I have decided to be far more selective in my Tamiya purchases in the future, I will no longer be purchasing nice to have models simply because it's the latest Tamiya release, however I will still buy any of what I deem must have items (I'm not going to cut my nose off).

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what i dont understand, is that i'm sure there is a percentage that you can alter a product in order to have it deemed not a copy of another, this isnt just in shape, but in materials used aswell? so a decal sheet could have the decals rearranged around the sheet, tamiya logo omitted and replaced with their own logo, higher quality decal material etc.

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Seriously? TamiyaClub is not officially affiliated with Tamiya, and so ... They. Don't. Give. Two. Hoots. You really need to get over the fact that this club isn't as important to Tamiya even in the slightest as it is to us. It will only become important to them if they buy it out and the money used to run it is given to them, but given the relatively few people that use it, that buy out I'd say is pretty unlikely.

As far as they're concerned, we were just another guilty party making money out of their IP. How long we were doing it is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is for whatever reason they decided that now was the time to take action and put a stop to it.

That's all there is to it. Complaining about it, debating the reasons for it, deciding whether it was just or not, boycotting future Tamiya releases, isn't going to change a thing.

LOL, I don't need to get over anything. I have always been well aware that sentiment plays no part in their actions, especially when it comes to dealing with customers in the western market. It's been clear from the beginning that re-releases have been based on what is best for the company & not the customer, and that is an action that makes sense because if you reintroduce old technology back onto the mass market you have to tread carefully so that you don't damage the overall brand. The fact that Tamiya shows no "love" for this club in a brotherly type way does not bother me in the slightest. I'm peeved because they show no respect to it as a valued customer.

TC is not officially affiliated with Tamiya. So what?....that means diddly squat. TC is to all intents and purposes a huge fan club operated independently, a bit like when someone sets up a fan site for models/actors/pop stars etc. The huge difference is that those types of independent fan clubs generate absolutely no revenue for the actual object of *worship* whereas with the TC the very existence of it has generated hundreds of thousands of $$$$ for the company yet it seems they are too stupid to realise that and would rather participate in a spot of legal muscle flexing to show who is boss, rather than looking at the big picture.

Consider their arrogant & myopic approach to TC & it's members to that of the shops that associate themselves with this site. They are smart enough to realise the power of good customer relations & offer TC members discounts, give kits away to the club as prizes and have regular dialogue with the members on the forums as they realise that it all promotes good will & improves sales. In return they get a bit of advertising through the club yet the mighty Tamiya Inc. who get the biggest free pass of all time and makes an absolute financial killing through it feels that it cannot lower itself to cut that club a bit of slack or even show some recognition for all of the good work that is done here.

As has been pointed out already, their attitude to customers outside of Japan needs to improve. This thread started out with the possible idea of taking a physical course of action but it quickly became clear that doing so would be futile. It now exists for people to express their disapproval with the situation that has unfolded. It might not change a thing but just sitting quietly and accepting it without a word of protest is not an option either.

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I'm peeved because they show no respect to it as a valued customer.

I don't honestly believe that we are that much of a valued customer. Since starting the club in 2002 (i am member number 4 and helped Chris test the site out originally) we have only listed 74 thousand models on the site. Thats only 8 thousand or so a year, a small amount of total RC sales around the world for Tamiya per year I would imagine.

For me it doesn't matter anyway. I will still buy Tamiya as I love them and the collection will continue to grow.

It is interesting that all the new kits manuals are now online for download, Avante 2011 etc. Maybe they just plan to put them on their own site from now on as they release kits.

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I don't honestly believe that we are that much of a valued customer.

Seemingly not. It's a poor attitude to have though.

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LOL, I don't need to get over anything. I have always been well aware that sentiment plays no part in their actions, especially when it comes to dealing with customers in the western market. It's been clear from the beginning that re-releases have been based on what is best for the company & not the customer, and that is an action that makes sense because if you reintroduce old technology back onto the mass market you have to tread carefully so that you don't damage the overall brand. The fact that Tamiya shows no "love" for this club in a brotherly type way does not bother me in the slightest. I'm peeved because they show no respect to it as a valued customer.

And yet "from the beginning" you've continued to beat the drum about re-re's being some how related to the wishes and desires of people within this club as an important factor in governing which ones are released, given that we are somehow a core part of the vintage market. And now you're saying that it's clear from the beginning that that's not the case? As for TamiyaClub being a "valued customer", what on earth makes you think we are in anyway more valued than anyone else who's been guilty of the same thing and treated in exactly the same way? The key point here is that everyone HAS been treated equally, be it this club or Joe Bloggs on Ebay.

TC is not officially affiliated with Tamiya. So what?....that means diddly squat. TC is to all intents and purposes a huge fan club operated independently, a bit like when someone sets up a fan site for models/actors/pop stars etc. The huge difference is that those types of independent fan clubs generate absolutely no revenue for the actual object of *worship* whereas with the TC the very existence of it has generated hundreds of thousands of $$$$ for the company yet it seems they are too stupid to realise that and would rather participate in a spot of legal muscle flexing to show who is boss, rather than looking at the big picture.

So what? If you recognise that this club is not affiliated with Tamiya in an official capacity, then it has no reason to treat any differently to anyone else. I'd also love to know how you think reprinting manuals and decals in some way generates pots of cash for Tamiya. Perhaps this club as an entity has encouraged people to buy kits that they may not of bought otherwise, but the decals and manual printing aren't in any way shape or form directly responsible for that. Granted, this club is probably indirectly responsible for creating an atmosphere where people hanker after kits that they wouldn't otherwise be interested in, but I still don't think that's really significant enough to warrant any special treatment by Tamiya.

Consider their arrogant & myopic approach to TC & it's members to that of the shops that associate themselves with this site. They are smart enough to realise the power of good customer relations & offer TC members discounts, give kits away to the club as prizes and have regular dialogue with the members on the forums as they realise that it all promotes good will & improves sales. In return they get a bit of advertising through the club yet the mighty Tamiya Inc. who get the biggest free pass of all time and makes an absolute financial killing through it feels that it cannot lower itself to cut that club a bit of slack or even show some recognition for all of the good work that is done here.

Once again. Everyones been treated equally. Whilst I understand what you're saying, I don't agree with it. Whichever way you look at it, what we've been doing has been illegal, and we've just been lucky that we've gotten away with it for as long as we have. What Tamiya did whilst unpopular, was quite right, and I really think the "legal muscle flexing" that you keep banging on about is overly dramatic and unnecessary.

As has been pointed out already, their attitude to customers outside of Japan needs to improve. This thread started out with the possible idea of taking a physical course of action but it quickly became clear that doing so would be futile. It now exists for people to express their disapproval with the situation that has unfolded. It might not change a thing but just sitting quietly and accepting it without a word of protest is not an option either.

Perhaps not for you. Whilst what they did has made things less convenient for me as a consumer, as has also been pointed out, there are a fair few other avenues open to us with a bit of savvy Google'age, and I believe that Tamiya has probably got something up its sleeve for making this kind of stuff available to us in a more official capacity. For me going off on one, crossing your arms and stamping your feet until you've heard the full picture, which can often take a while to unfold is generally utterly pointless and doesn't do anything but give you a headache.

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Off course this forum is important for T, as is every other forum about a specific brand or theme for a producer.

Once I got a confirmation from one of the leading static model brands that they monitor many forums to see what the people say about new releases, quality, product ideas, etc. They actually listened and released models as requested. The companies see these sites as a free marketing research tool (and we supply them all information for free without realising). I am sure that someone in Japan reads these posts every day and reports to the T-management.

Also I wonder if the reason to request the removal of the manuals and decals from the TC is that this site generates a lot of money, is a profesional outlay and T gets no part it. (Members x yearly subscription = ?)

I hope that TC is now safe and will continue for many years.

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And yet "from the beginning" you've continued to beat the drum about re-re's being some how related to the wishes and desires of people within this club as an important factor in governing which ones are released, given that we are somehow a core part of the vintage market. And now you're saying that it's clear from the beginning that that's not the case? As for TamiyaClub being a "valued customer", what on earth makes you think we are in anyway more valued than anyone else who's been guilty of the same thing and treated in exactly the same way? The key point here is that everyone HAS been treated equally, be it this club or Joe Bloggs on Ebay.

Not exactly. What I’ve believed is that they keep tabs on worldwide internet activity and TC is a significant part of that. This means that they look here, on ebay & on Japanese specific sites like Yahoo Japan & others that we may not be aware of. I’ve also been of the opinion that when it comes to the vintage re-release market it may have become increasingly clear that both eastern & western consumers prefer the same kits to come back, which is why stuff like the Thundershot flopped. This means that looking at TC from time to time can be a useful indicator of what is popular & might sell well in Japan & with that other lot in the west. The bottom line though is that it has to sell well in Japan for it to be considered a success and I’ve never suggested anything otherwise. The T-Shot, Manta Ray & Top Force flopped in the home country so they dumped them. The thing is though people can crave whichever kits they want but the company will only bring them back if they feel it’s beneficial to them; that’s what I mean about not pandering to sentiment.

I certainly don’t think that the western market is more valued, clearly it is less valued. This probably has something to do with the fact that revenue earned from the west is much lower than in the east so they feel that they don’t need to bother justifying anything they do over here. I simply feel that is a pretty poor stance to take. And once again I don’t think they took the correct stance by treating TC in the same way as ebay sellers who contribute nothing to the company bottom line.

So what? If you recognise that this club is not affiliated with Tamiya in an official capacity, then it has no reason to treat any differently to anyone else. I'd also love to know how you think reprinting manuals and decals in some way generates pots of cash for Tamiya. Perhaps this club as an entity has encouraged people to buy kits that they may not of bought otherwise, but the decals and manual printing aren't in any way shape or form directly responsible for that. Granted, this club is probably indirectly responsible for creating an atmosphere where people hanker after kits that they wouldn't otherwise be interested in, but I still don't think that's really significant enough to warrant any special treatment by Tamiya.

You just answered your own question in that paragraph. Of course manuals & repro decals mean nothing. However....”this club as an entity has encouraged people to buy kits that they may not of bought otherwise”.....” this club is probably indirectly responsible for creating an atmosphere where people hanker after kits that they wouldn't otherwise be interested in”.....now nobody has the figures to hand but I reckon that they have earned tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of $$$ that would never come their way if there had been no TC. If you think that is not significant enough to warrant a tiny bit of special treatment then fair enough we are never going to agree.

For me going off on one, crossing your arms and stamping your feet until you've heard the full picture, which can often take a while to unfold is generally utterly pointless and doesn't do anything but give you a headache.

No stamping of feet going on here either and definitely no headaches. <_< In actual fact the physical loss of the manuals & decals means nothing to me as I rarely ever used them & never planned to by a set of decals and, as you point out, it’s an easy work around anyway to get those things if you really want them. I simply feel that their western customer relations leave a lot to be desired and this thread is as good a place as any to express that.

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All fair enough, however:

You just answered your own question in that paragraph. Of course manuals & repro decals mean nothing. However....”this club as an entity has encouraged people to buy kits that they may not of bought otherwise”.....” this club is probably indirectly responsible for creating an atmosphere where people hanker after kits that they wouldn't otherwise be interested in”.....now nobody has the figures to hand but I reckon that they have earned tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of $$$ that would never come their way if there had been no TC. If you think that is not significant enough to warrant a tiny bit of special treatment then fair enough we are never going to agree.

What we're never going to agree on is the emboldened bit. I really don't think it's quite that much, or else I would tend to agree on your point; in fact if someone had pinpointed those figures and could prove that "TamiyaClub had indirectly generated $200,000 of additional revenue for Tamiya that it wouldn't have got otherwise", then I don't think anyone could argue, because there would be an official "Tamiya Feedback" section on this forum, more direct input by Tamiya themselves.

Of course, you or I are never going to know either way for sure.

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All fair enough, however:

What we're never going to agree on is the emboldened bit. I really don't think it's quite that much, or else I would tend to agree on your point; in fact if someone had pinpointed those figures and could prove that "TamiyaClub had indirectly generated $200,000 of additional revenue for Tamiya that it wouldn't have got otherwise", then I don't think anyone could argue, because there would be an official "Tamiya Feedback" section on this forum, more direct input by Tamiya themselves.

Of course, you or I are never going to know either way for sure.

Well what I do know for sure is that in 7 years I have spent nearly £5K on kits and £3.5K of it went directly to Tamiya, ie not ebay sellers, and I only consider myself to be a below average consumer compared to many members on here. I guess a possible way of adding up what has been spent would be to somehow add up the value of NIB kits & bits bought that were still in production in 2002. Not sure how easy that would be to do though. <_<

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Well what I do know for sure is that in 7 years I have spent nearly £5K on kits and £3.5K of it went directly to Tamiya, ie not ebay sellers, and I only consider myself to be a below average consumer compared to many members on here. I guess a possible way of adding up what has been spent would be to somehow add up the value of NIB kits & bits bought that were still in production in 2002. Not sure how easy that would be to do though. :)

The point is though, and the difficult to proove bit is how much of that £3.5k have you spent as a direct result of being a member of TC? There's no way of knowing whether you may have spent that money on those kits anyway or not. You're probably thinking that I'm being a bit pedantic, but really it's the key point that governs whether or not Tamiya should have dealt with us differently or not.

From my own point of view of all the NIBs I've bought, I probably wouldn't have bought a Lunchbox or a Clod without TC's influence. My Sand Scorcher would have happened irrespective of TC, because I love Bajas. I just probably would have only found out about it later than I did, and probably even then not bought it from Stella Models.

All my other cars are either not Tamiyas, custom jobs or second hand ebay purchases and therefore don't have any relevance to the topping up of the T Coffers!

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The point is though, and the difficult to proove bit is how much of that £3.5k have you spent as a direct result of being a member of TC? There's no way of knowing whether you may have spent that money on those kits anyway or not. You're probably thinking that I'm being a bit pedantic, but really it's the key point that governs whether or not Tamiya should have dealt with us differently or not.

From my own point of view of all the NIBs I've bought, I probably wouldn't have bought a Lunchbox or a Clod without TC's influence. My Sand Scorcher would have happened irrespective of TC, because I love Bajas. I just probably would have only found out about it later than I did, and probably even then not bought it from Stella Models.

All my other cars are either not Tamiyas, custom jobs or second hand ebay purchases and therefore don't have any relevance to the topping up of the T Coffers!

That's an even easier one to answer because I can say with total honesty that without finding TC I would not have spent a penny of that £5K. I was not looking to get back into RC that day when bored & Googling the word "Tamiya". I was just looking to see what information was out there on the net. You could say that I ony discovered ebay because of TC too since once I had realised that vintage stuff was still available NIB I became something of an ebay junkie. :)

I can also say that the influence of the TC community has got me to appreciate and want cars that I initially never liked or understood the popularity. A classic case is the Scorcher, I only vaguely remember them from back in the day and was bemused to see that they were the Holy Grail of collectors items. With time though, viewing showrooms & watching videos I came to join the love-in.

Once I had got on the vintage trail I then started to take notice of other stuff and there are many kits that I have owned that never made it to my showroom, simply because I'm lazy and usually take an age to list the stuff I buy, but without finding TC I would never have bought stuff like a Dark Impact, Full Option Knight Hauler & various TT-01 kits.

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I wouldn't have bought any new models if it wasn't for Tamiyaclub.

That's ten grand or so right there......and I'm only one of many members who would have done exactly the same.

Tamiya owes Tamiyaclub big time. No doubt about it.

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I wouldn't have bought any new models if it wasn't for Tamiyaclub.

That's ten grand or so right there......and I'm only one of many members who would have done exactly the same.

Tamiya owes Tamiyaclub big time. No doubt about it.

Same background for me.

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