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*** Dissatisfied with Tamiya petition ***

Dissatisfied with Tamiya poll  

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Like I said early on in this topic, China is gearing up to exploit this blunder by Tamiya. I've already seen the begginings of a flood of repro decals from HK and mainland China. Copyrights? Ha! Look at the F103 knock offs out there. Who sells more 1/16 Tanks? Heng Long or Tamiya? Duh! Tamiya used to get my dollars because I respected the quality. This recent attitude change towards the foundation of old Tamiya loyalists has changed not only mine, but many others opinions. The re-re wave drove away the Uber collectors. This copyright enforcement against vintage out of production items will drive away the core of TC. RIGHT NOW, there is a worker in the central mainland, working for rice and a dorm room, who will make everything you need for pennies. Take that MR Tamiya........... What copyright.......

Whatever it is you're on, I'd like some.

Being able to see into the rooms of people in countries all the way across the world? That's pretty cool. Maybe you're a real life X-Man!

In all seriousness though, whilst I respect for you to have the right to your opinion, this is probably the biggest load of old tosh I think I've ever read on these boards.

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I don't buy the Chinese rip-offs. Don't even give them a second look. To quote you, Tamiya is clamping down where they can (TamiyaClub.com) and similar operations that have profited for years without obstruction by Tamiya.

As stated earlier in this thread, my main gripe is paying TC for a service that I'm no longer receiving. No mention on compensation from TC. Just they same ol' "smoke and mirrors" of "well, it was good while it lasted". What? What about the services I "purchased" with my membership, that I'm no longer receiving? The problem the club is having with Tamiya is all centered on the revenue stream TC enjoys in part from copyrighted products from Tamiya. Bam! Case closed........... Greed....

Oh wait, no... this is. The other one's a close second though.

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Tamiya should offer their manual or decals down load for a $1.00 kind of like itune, a dollar for a song. They may not make a bunch of money like Lady Gaga but will keep everyone happy. For actual decals, they can charge a norminal fee plus postage and handling. Fairs is fair.

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Tamiya should offer their manual or decals down load for a $1.00 kind of like itune, a dollar for a song. They may not make a bunch of money like Lady Gaga but will keep everyone happy. For actual decals, they can charge a norminal fee plus postage and handling. Fairs is fair.

They already offer them for free. They just dont like people selling their copyrighted material. Please can we stop this thread and move on

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They already offer them for free. They just dont like people selling their copyrighted material. Please can we stop this thread and move on

I didn't realized Tamiya allows free downloads to all their manuals. The same for all their decals?

Look so long as Tamiya keeps making the stuff we want, we will keep coming back.

As for members spending $10K+/- are they all NIB from LHS or web-business vs mostly to other collectors, which Tamiya is not making the money if to collections.

I think Tamiya Company has been very nice to TC for the last several years with not issues with download / copy right. We should be happy while it lasted. Notice TC is selling T-Shirt with Tamiya's products. Is Tamiya cutting TC some slack or just overlooked???

I am sure one can still get down loads from related sites as they are not waving a big flag infront of Tamiya.

If one truly believes Tamiya's action is inappropriate, stop buying its products, but you won't in the end as there is nothing out there can replace the Tamiya's Touch.

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Looking back, the fact that TC essentially charges, through member fees, access to manuals may be a violation of copyright. But, this depends on international agreements, etc. I was never comfortable with the idea of having to pay to view manuals that I can get from Tamiya or another forum/website. This is why I'm not "officially" a member of TC. There are better ways of sharing manuals for nothing that benefits everyone.

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Everybody seems to be overlooking the fact that it was only large/printable versions of the manuals that were available to members only. You could still read them online...

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I'm not sure if the problem was just the hosting of them at all, or that there was the potential profit to be made from the larger versions - were the largest versions open to all members or only to subscribed members?

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I'm not sure if the problem was just the hosting of them at all, or that there was the potential profit to be made from the larger versions - were the largest versions open to all members or only to subscribed members?

subscribed members

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I am sure I will catch some heat for this. But I am also sure I am not the only one to feel this way and I will be as nice as possible. I personally am boycotting any new Tamiya products especially re-releases. Why? Well the answer is simple. Tamiya has become nothing but a money grubbing cooperation that doesn't care about us, they just care about their fat wallets. They simply saw the amount of money that was being made by people in the collector market and wanted in on it. So they re-release cars knowing people will buy them and this at the same time lowers the value of the originals to some extent, thus hurting people that make money off it on a personal level. I am not one of those people. I collect to keep what I want, not to sell it, so this has no bearing on me personally. But I do however feel for the people it does. If you notice they re-release cars that the parts are selling for the most on ebay and such. Granted part of this is because of popularity, but not all of it.. And there are those random re-releases that make you wonder why they even bothered too. But it also makes it a lot harder to make sure you are looking at an original or not in a picture as well. But the cherry on the cake and what pushed me over the edge was when they forced people, Tamiyaclub included, to take down manuals for kits and any repro decals/stickers that they themselves neither sell or provide in any other way. There is absolutely no reason to do this as far as I am concerned and I am going to send them a message where they feel it most since they love money more than us consumers, their wallet. I AM NOT BUYING ANOTHER NEW PRODUCT FROM TAMIYA UNTIL THEY ALLOW MANUALS AT THE VERY LEAST TO BE POSTED ON WEB SITES. Decals I can sort of understand because they do have cooperate logos from other company's on them. But I think those should be allowed too since they already paid the rights for them and I don't hear the other companies complaining and demanding them taken down, heck it is free advertising. So I in fact took the $600 that I had saved up for a re-release that I just had to have but wasn't released yet and bought an HPI Baja 5B. Suck on that Tamiya. So I hope if you feel the same way, you will also not buy anything new from Tamiya.

BOYCOTT BUYING NEW PRODUCTS FROM TAMIYA PERIOD!

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I am sure I will catch some heat for this.

Nope, merged with the thread already slating Tamiya - enjoy :lol:

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If Tamiya still produced them or provided them in any form I could understand their reasoning. But they don't, so therefore I boycott any new Tamiya products. In fact I bought an HPI Baja 5b with money I had saved up for a Tamiya.

Edit: Thanks for moving my post. I thought it got removed and was pretty miffed I must admit. I didn't notice till after I made this post though. Feel free to take down this post if you like since it isn't needed.

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+1

I'm unhappy too, would happily purchase original decals and manuals, even if in PDF form.

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I am sure I will catch some heat for this. But I am also sure I am not the only one to feel this way and I will be as nice as possible. I personally am boycotting any new Tamiya products especially re-releases. Why? Well the answer is simple. Tamiya has become nothing but a money grubbing cooperation that doesn't care about us, they just care about their fat wallets. They simply saw the amount of money that was being made by people in the collector market and wanted in on it. So they re-release cars knowing people will buy them and this at the same time lowers the value of the originals to some extent, thus hurting people that make money off it on a personal level. I am not one of those people. I collect to keep what I want, not to sell it, so this has no bearing on me personally. But I do however feel for the people it does. If you notice they re-release cars that the parts are selling for the most on ebay and such. Granted part of this is because of popularity, but not all of it.. And there are those random re-releases that make you wonder why they even bothered too. But it also makes it a lot harder to make sure you are looking at an original or not in a picture as well. But the cherry on the cake and what pushed me over the edge was when they forced people, Tamiyaclub included, to take down manuals for kits and any repro decals/stickers that they themselves neither sell or provide in any other way. There is absolutely no reason to do this as far as I am concerned and I am going to send them a message where they feel it most since they love money more than us consumers, their wallet. I AM NOT BUYING ANOTHER NEW PRODUCT FROM TAMIYA UNTIL THEY ALLOW MANUALS AT THE VERY LEAST TO BE POSTED ON WEB SITES. Decals I can sort of understand because they do have cooperate logos from other company's on them. But I think those should be allowed too since they already paid the rights for them and I don't hear the other companies complaining and demanding them taken down, heck it is free advertising. So I in fact took the $600 that I had saved up for a re-release that I just had to have but wasn't released yet and bought an HPI Baja 5B. Suck on that Tamiya. So I hope if you feel the same way, you will also not buy anything new from Tamiya.

BOYCOTT BUYING NEW PRODUCTS FROM TAMIYA PERIOD!

Why? Well the answer is simple. Tamiya has become nothing but a money grubbing cooperation that doesn't care about us, they just care about their fat wallets.

No offense but cry me a river. Tamiya is in the business of making money. Imo, I think they care about their customers, including the core fans of their product, or else they would have not gambled on cars like the re-re's, including the expensive Avante. Especially in this economy. For Tamiya it's a win win, the company gets what it wants and we get what we want. Are there things to nit-pick? Yes. But again. . .

"They simply saw the amount of money that was being made by people in the collector market and wanted in on it. So they re-release cars knowing people will buy them and this at the same time lowers the value of the originals to some extent, thus hurting people that make money off it on a personal level."

GOOD! I'm glad they wanted "in on it" so we can all enjoy a piece of Tamiya's history. I could care less about the collector's market. If these so called collectors were in it for the history & uniqueness of these kits instead of purely their value they wouldn't be complaining much. A vintage kit will always be more valuable than a re-re. For these "collectors" it's just about the money. That's why there is always a "dump" of vintage kits ebay, with huge prices, every time a re-re is announced. These "collectors" understand the impact the re-re's have on their wallet. The re-re Egress is another example, case closed.

"I collect to keep what I want, not to sell it. . ." Forgive me for not believing you.

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prplehz, I am calling you out for the "Waaah, I'm not buying any more Tamiya!" troll you are.

Tamiya has become nothing but a money grubbing cooperation that doesn't care about us, they just care about their fat wallets.

With all due respect: Utter garbage. Tamiya care about their bottom line as a company, AND they care about us as their consumers. They obviously care what we want, they are putting awesome vintage kits back into production to prove it. Several years ago, who would have thought you could walk into the hobby shop and get a brand new metal Sand Scorcher, or over-engineered Avante, without paying silly money collector prices? And you can build that kit, and not feel bad that you're taking one more vintage NIB kit out of the world.

Without consumers, Tamiya would cease to be.

I don't know if you've seen some of the other amazing kits Tamiya have produced lately? Go look the incredible 1/32 Spitfire VIII/IXc kits, and the P-51D Mustang kit that's about to come out. Tamiya make some of the coolest stuff.

They simply saw the amount of money that was being made by people in the collector market and wanted in on it.

So they re-release cars knowing people will buy them and this at the same time lowers the value of the originals to some extent, thus hurting people that make money off it on a personal level.

Understandable. Tamiya make no money whatsoever from the collectors market for their vintage kits and parts. Bravo to them for seeing what their potential customers want, and re-releasing the most popular kits.

Why should someone be allowed to make money by copying Tamiya's decals and manuals? Why should Tamiya not be allowed to compete for collector's dollars in the market for vintage kits? Remember, if there was no Tamiya, there would be no Tamiya collector's market in the first place. There's no merit in an argument that claims Tamiya have no right to compete for money from the current demand for their old kits. They created the kits in the first place!

I am not one of those people. I collect to keep what I want, not to sell it, so this has no bearing on me personally. But I do however feel for the people it does.

If you notice they re-release cars that the parts are selling for the most on ebay and such. Granted part of this is because of popularity, but not all of it.. And there are those random re-releases that make you wonder why they even bothered too.

So the internet is a powerful marketing tool. And Tamiya obviously use the internet to see what the market wants? I see nothing wrong with that.

Remember, there's more to the collector's market than eBay prices. Many deals are still done by collectors face to face, who still care passionately that they are collecting the 'real deal' vintage kits, and still pay a huge premium for the 'good stuff'. You just don't see them on eBay any more, because it's not worthwhile selling them there any more. eBay is turning into a huge version of Amazon, with no auctions, just 'buy it now' sales and huge fees for sellers. Most casual eBay sallers can't make money any more on eBay due to the fees. Do you hate on eBay too?

There has been a long held mentality from many members on this site, that if you're in Tamiya for the money, you are in it for the wrong reasons. Let's face it, some of the collectors prices for some vintage NIB kits have been out of reach to all but the most well-off Tamiya collectors. Not to mention you lose serious money if you enjoy the kit by building it.

The fact that you can now get these classic car kits again for a reasonable cost means you can afford to enjoy these kits in the manner they were intended - building, running and maintaining, without fear that a broken part means the model can't be fixed and is confined to the back of the closet, or worse thrown in the trash.

But it also makes it a lot harder to make sure you are looking at an original or not in a picture as well.

The true collectors take it on as a challenge. There is now more to know in this hobby, trying to tell the original vintage parts apart from the re-release parts. There is still just as much challenge trying to find the original vintage parts. Can you tell a re-release Hot Shot gearbox sprue from an original one just by looking at it on eBay? I can :P

You almost act like Tamiya are trying to con collectors with 'fake' vintage parts.

I think Tamiya have been very clever releasing the new kits with subtle changes in packaging and kit numbers, to make sure that as much of the collector value of the original kits remains. A re-re doesn't affect the number of classic kits in the world.

But the cherry on the cake and what pushed me over the edge was when they forced people, Tamiyaclub included, to take down manuals for kits and any repro decals/stickers that they themselves neither sell or provide in any other way.

Just because someone wants something, doesn't give them the right to have it. That Tamiya don't currently offer the decals and manuals is irrelevant. For example, if a music CD is out of production, you have no right to start making and selling copies of that CD just because it's out of production. And the copyright holder isn't obliged to let you. Why expect any different treatment for Tamiya? The decals and manuals are Tamiya copyright items. Tamiya created them, Tamiya have the right to decide who can copy and distribute them. Tamiya alone have the right to benefit form the first sale and first distribution of copies. And they need to protect their copyright to prevent others from profiting from their work down the track, whether it's repro decal sales, or full copies of entire kits from China.

The difference is, there are organisations that fiercely protects music copyright and the interests of music publishers and artists. Nobody fights for Tamiya. Tamiya have to fiercely protect their own copyright, or they could very easily find themselves trying to fight for their copyright in courts down the track.

If anything, Tamiya have been extraordinarily lenient to date, in not starting to shut down sellers of reproduction decals and photocopy manuals and CDs full of scans until recently.

There is absolutely no reason to do this as far as I am concerned and I am going to send them a message where they feel it most since they love money more than us consumers, their wallet. I AM NOT BUYING ANOTHER NEW PRODUCT FROM TAMIYA UNTIL THEY ALLOW MANUALS AT THE VERY LEAST TO BE POSTED ON WEB SITES.

They already do have manuals for all their current kits available for download. For free. They're not making any money from the older manuals. It costs Tamiya money to offer them for download. It would be very nice if Tamiya put up high res PDF copies of every manual ever on their website though - would that change your mind?

Decals I can sort of understand because they do have cooperate logos from other company's on them. But I think those should be allowed too since they already paid the rights for them and I don't hear the other companies complaining and demanding them taken down, heck it is free advertising.

Tamiya decal sheets also usually contain content that is exclusively Tamiya's, such as stripes, logos (the Hornet and Frog logos are especially recognisable) and lettering (tailfin mottos).

The whole 'free advertising' thing went out the window years ago. Tamiya have to pay license fees for the images, logos and body shapes that are in their kits and decals. Are you cranky at the logo copyright owners for charging fees, which encouraged Tamiya to include fictitious sponsor decals on their decal sets?

Why don't you 'get even at Tamiya' and produce decal sets that have the real sponsor logos on them that are missing from the Tamiya kits? You can take the risk of being taken to court for selling unlicensed copies of copyright logos.

So I in fact took the $600 that I had saved up for a re-release that I just had to have but wasn't released yet and bought an HPI Baja 5B. Suck on that Tamiya.

Cool, good for you. Have fun with it.

So I hope if you feel the same way, you will also not buy anything new from Tamiya.

BOYCOTT BUYING NEW PRODUCTS FROM TAMIYA PERIOD!

Nope, I don't feel that way. The way I feel: Cool, more Tamiya for the rest of us! :lol:

- James

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Tamiya's crackdown on repo decals is understandable. There could even be legal ramifications if third parties copy decals that have logos from other companies like: Pennzoil, Budweiser, etc. Tamiya may be liable on some level given that planet Earth is plagued by lawyers with a taste for litigation, lol. Tamiya may not want to deal with the hassle if held accountable. Again, understandable.

Manuals, on the other hand, fall into "fair use." Name me a company that doesn't have their manuals free to download on their site? Everything from appliances, cars, computers, you name something and it has a free manual for download. In the case of Tamiya there simply isn't any of the vintage (or for that matter the most of the modern) manuals available for download. I think it is wrong for Tamiya to threaten or force people to remain without information on how their product can be built or repaired. The rub is that TC is essentially "selling" full access to the "readable" resolution of Tamiya's manuals. TC is profiting on something that should be free. Is this the motive for Tamiya to crack down? I'm not sure.

Unless tamiya is willing to add every kit manual, from the original Porsche 934 Turbo up, then they should NOT complain.

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Manuals, on the other hand, fall into "fair use." Name me a company that doesn't have their manuals free to download on their site? Everything from appliances, cars, computers, you name something and it has a free manual for download. In the case of Tamiya there simply isn't any of the vintage (or for that matter the most of the modern) manuals available for download. I think it is wrong for Tamiya to threaten or force people to remain without information on how their product can be built or repaired.

No, Tamiya manuals don't fall into "fair use" provisions of copyright laws. Fair use laws allow you to make copies of things you already own for personal use, eg format shifting audio by copying it from a CD you bought to your iPod. They don't allow you to distribute copies to people who don't have original copies, and they don't oblige Tamiya to provide all their manuals back to the dawn of time for free.

I do agree though, it would be really nice if Tamiya made all their historic RC kit manuals available as clean scanned PDF. But Tamiya aren't under any obligation to do so that I am aware of, other than it would be nice gesture to the fans.

The rub is that TC is essentially "selling" full access to the "readable" resolution of Tamiya's manuals. TC is profiting on something that should be free. Is this the motive for Tamiya to crack down? I'm not sure.

It doesn't matter if TamiyaClub were charging for them or not, it is copyright infringement either way. That TamiyaClub could have been argued to be selling the manuals by requiring a paid membership to see the high res scans would have just made it worse for TamiyaClub had the issue gone to court. Like it or not, Tamiya were fully entitled to do what they did.

Look at it this way - if you have a collection of vintage decals and manuals, they just went up in price. Who says Tamiya don't care about the collector? :lol:

- James

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"No, Tamiya manuals don't fall into "fair use" provisions of copyright laws. Fair use laws allow you to make copies of things you already own for personal use, eg format shifting audio by copying it from a CD you bought to your iPod. They don't allow you to distribute copies to people who don't have original copies,"

Negative. Fair use is a provision to protect the consumer more than the copyright holder, at least in the U.S. One can distribute copies as long as it is not for profit. Go back and re-read my post.

"and they don't oblige Tamiya to provide all their manuals back to the dawn of time for free."

Go back and re-read my comment. I did not say that "fair use" obliges Tamiya to provide manuals for free download. If you are going to be confrontational, at least you can do so without sounding ignorant, and misunderstanding what the person said. Besides your wrong, because there are these things called "books" that are freely distributed since Gutenberg's movable type press. Technically, Tamiya manuals are a sort of book. We can play these games all day, but the simple truth is that Tamiya should leave well enough alone when it comes to the free access to their manuals. Tamiya's costumers need these manuals for the repair and function of their vehicles, especially when it doesn't cost them anything. Case closed.

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If you are going to be confrontational, at least you can do so without sounding ignorant, and misunderstanding what the person said. Besides your wrong, because there are these things called "books" that are freely distributed since Gutenberg's movable type press. Technically, Tamiya manuals are a sort of book. We can play these games all day, but the simple truth is that Tamiya should leave well enough alone when it comes to the free access to their manuals. Tamiya's costumers need these manuals for the repair and function of their vehicles, especially when it doesn't cost them anything. Case closed.

Wow. :lol:

I assure you I am not being confrontational, and did not deserve a confrontational reply. Forum posts on the internet have a strange effect on people, they tend to read discussion on subjects they are passionate about with a very negative tone.

I will dismiss your comment at my post 'sounding ignorant' to your own misinterpretation of my tone.

We've come a long way since the days of the invention of the printing press, as amazing a technological advancement as it was in its day, yes?

Negative. Fair use is a provision to protect the consumer more than the copyright holder, at least in the U.S. One can distribute copies as long as it is not for profit. Go back and re-read my post.

With all respect, I read your post, but your post is not a verbatim copy of the law. It is merely your interpretation. I am gobsmacked by claims like this interpretation of fair use, and sense of entitlement it generates. What law allows you to redistribute entire copyright works, as long as you are not charging for it? Tamiyaclub were not posting copies for purposes such as criticism, news reporting or school education, that might come under free use. Are you confusing copyright with consumer protection? Tamiya sold these manuals in the past as replacement parts, they might choose to sell them in a compendium book of manuals one day. If you could download all the manuals for free, that would take away Tamiya's option to do that. Tamiya's manuals definitely don't have zero value.

If you think there's no legal barrier, why are you all getting cranky at TamiyaClub for taking the manuals down? What's stopping you from setting up a website with all the manual scans on it, and taking the risk, if you feel you are in the clear to distribute these manuals for free?

Besides, I think that Tamiya's main objection with TamiyaClub would be that they were charging for the decals, and charging for a premium membership that includes access to download the high res manual scans. So Tamiya could be deemed to be charging for them and profiting.

The case is most certainly not closed. Fair use in the USA is a horribly vague law, is tested case by case depending on what is being copied, how much is being copied, who copies it and how it is distributed, but I would not be taking the risk in this scenario. I am glad TamiyaClub aren't taking the risk, I value this site more for its community than I did the manuals and decals.

- James

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but the simple truth is that Tamiya should leave well enough alone when it comes to the free access to their manuals. Tamiya's costumers need these manuals for the repair and function of their vehicles, especially when it doesn't cost them anything. Case closed.

The problem, as far as Tamiya's lawyers probably see it, is that there wasn't 'free access' to these manuals. Tamiya club were technically profiting from distributing them. From my experience company's will turn a blind eye to things if money isn't involved, when it comes to copyright issues. As soon as it's seen as any kind of profit is being made by the person infringing on the copyright then a company will act. If the high res scans were available to everyone for free out with TC subscribers then it's possible Tamiya wouldn't have made their move.

I do think Tamiya are biting the hand that feeds them to a certain extent over the manuals situation and it's unfortunate but big company's do this sort of thing and I'm not surprised it's happened here. The question is why they allowed it do go on for so long if they weren't happy with it? Maybe they're prepping their own website aimed at collectors.

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The funny thing is that I believe the original reason that the hi-res versions of the manuals were only available to subscribers was to try to prevent people downloading them all and then selling them on eBay. As far as I know, the intent was not necessarily to add value to the club subscription, but was to prevent people making money off Tamiya's manuals. How ironic.

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Wow. :P

I assure you I am not being confrontational, and did not deserve a confrontational reply. Forum posts on the internet have a strange effect on people, they tend to read discussion on subjects they are passionate about with a very negative tone.

I will dismiss your comment at my post 'sounding ignorant' to your own misinterpretation of my tone.

We've come a long way since the days of the invention of the printing press, as amazing a technological advancement as it was in its day, yes?

With all respect, I read your post, but your post is not a verbatim copy of the law. It is merely your interpretation. I am gobsmacked by claims like this interpretation of fair use, and sense of entitlement it generates. What law allows you to redistribute entire copyright works, as long as you are not charging for it? Tamiyaclub were not posting copies for purposes such as criticism, news reporting or school education, that might come under free use. Are you confusing copyright with consumer protection? Tamiya sold these manuals in the past as replacement parts, they might choose to sell them in a compendium book of manuals one day. If you could download all the manuals for free, that would take away Tamiya's option to do that. Tamiya's manuals definitely don't have zero value.

If you think there's no legal barrier, why are you all getting cranky at TamiyaClub for taking the manuals down? What's stopping you from setting up a website with all the manual scans on it, and taking the risk, if you feel you are in the clear to distribute these manuals for free?

Besides, I think that Tamiya's main objection with TamiyaClub would be that they were charging for the decals, and charging for a premium membership that includes access to download the high res manual scans. So Tamiya could be deemed to be charging for them and profiting.

The case is most certainly not closed. Fair use in the USA is a horribly vague law, is tested case by case depending on what is being copied, how much is being copied, who copies it and how it is distributed, but I would not be taking the risk in this scenario. I am glad TamiyaClub aren't taking the risk, I value this site more for its community than I did the manuals and decals.

- James

Lots of verbiage and twisted logic. You were not confrontational calling the one of the members a troll?

"Tamiya sold these manuals in the past as replacement parts, they might choose to sell them in a compendium book of manuals one day. If you could download all the manuals for free, that would take away Tamiya's option to do that." When? Between now and decades from now? Tamiya is restricting the flow of information to maintain or repair their vehicles it's customers purchased decades ago. Tamiya can do whatever it pleases, but it has not addressed this issue. Period.

". . .you confusing copyright with consumer protection?" No I did not, and in certain cases like this they intersect. You still haven't addressed the issue when information has entered the public domain for long periods of time. You sound like a believer of perpetual copyright.

"If you think there's no legal barrier, why are you all getting cranky at TamiyaClub for taking the manuals down? What's stopping you from setting up a website with all the manual scans on it, and taking the risk, if you feel you are in the clear to distribute these manuals for free?" Because I'm lazy & I do not have all the manuals. Incidentally, I would urge the various Tamiya forum sites like TC to compile all the manuals on a zip file & make them available from a downloading service while it lasts.

"Fair use in the USA is a horribly vague law, is tested case by case depending on what is being copied, how much is being copied, who copies it and how it is distributed, but I would not be taking the risk in this scenario." It's "horribly vague" because of the ethical & practical issues mentioned above.

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Wow. :P

I assure you I am not being confrontational, and did not deserve a confrontational reply. Forum posts on the internet have a strange effect on people, they tend to read discussion on subjects they are passionate about with a very negative tone.

I will dismiss your comment at my post 'sounding ignorant' to your own misinterpretation of my tone.

We've come a long way since the days of the invention of the printing press, as amazing a technological advancement as it was in its day, yes?

With all respect, I read your post, but your post is not a verbatim copy of the law. It is merely your interpretation. I am gobsmacked by claims like this interpretation of fair use, and sense of entitlement it generates. What law allows you to redistribute entire copyright works, as long as you are not charging for it? Tamiyaclub were not posting copies for purposes such as criticism, news reporting or school education, that might come under free use. Are you confusing copyright with consumer protection? Tamiya sold these manuals in the past as replacement parts, they might choose to sell them in a compendium book of manuals one day. If you could download all the manuals for free, that would take away Tamiya's option to do that. Tamiya's manuals definitely don't have zero value.

If you think there's no legal barrier, why are you all getting cranky at TamiyaClub for taking the manuals down? What's stopping you from setting up a website with all the manual scans on it, and taking the risk, if you feel you are in the clear to distribute these manuals for free?

Besides, I think that Tamiya's main objection with TamiyaClub would be that they were charging for the decals, and charging for a premium membership that includes access to download the high res manual scans. So Tamiya could be deemed to be charging for them and profiting.

The case is most certainly not closed. Fair use in the USA is a horribly vague law, is tested case by case depending on what is being copied, how much is being copied, who copies it and how it is distributed, but I would not be taking the risk in this scenario. I am glad TamiyaClub aren't taking the risk, I value this site more for its community than I did the manuals and decals.

- James

Actually I took your post as quite confrontational.

Mark

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I would like to add that since reading some posts and such. I am changing my opinion on the re-releases somewhat. They aren't all bad, after all they allow us to drive cars like the old days buy not worry so much about things breaking. However I still think no manuals online is complete stupidity and Tamiya really needs to rethink that one! And until they do I wont buy their stuff, simple as that. And no sir I am not a Troll, in fact I despise such people. And you can believe me or not I don't care. I only collect what I like and sell what I don't need afterwords to someone else. And thank you, I am enjoying my HPI Baja 5B tremendously!!

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