Manta Ray

[Ouill 0]

Hi Guys!

I'm located in France and I'm using again my two old Manta Ray (Item 58087) bought 20 years ago

I'm doing this firstable for my 8 years old son but I have to admit I'm taking a lot of pleasure

Actually, they are quite "stock" both and only the ESC and the motor were changed :

1st : a 14T double motor + an HITEC SP-650 Esc

2nd : a 14T double motor + a T2M Furious 9T Esc.

I bought 3 weeks ago a couple of new NIMH (of 5A each) and after a complete disassembly/reassembly with news parts (for the ones which are broken), I was able to do with my son a couple of great runs

However I have some big troubles because the spur gear of 74 tooth (cogs) don't accept the power of the new NIMH and quite all the cogs are destroyed after 5 runs... I'm still with the 21cogs gear on the motor.

I will buy some news ones in plastic but perhaps you are knowning some spur gears for this model of Tamiya in alloy or aluminium? Something stronger than the plastics genuine ones...

Sorry for my english and thanks for reading and answering if you want!

Regards,

JP

[TA-Mark 197]

The problem is not the plastic gears!

The gear that wears is the soft Tamiya aluminium pinion gear (the one on the motor). Once the pinion gear wears to pointy shaped teeth, it cuts the plastic spur gear. Avoid any aluminium gears in the drivetrain.

The best gear setup for the DF01 (DF01 is the codename for the MantaRay family of buggys) is to use the TA02 all plastic gearset #50529 combined with steel 0.6 module pinion gears.

Steel 0.6module pinions can be bought from RW Racing (UK) or Robinson Racing (US). I would recommend pinions from 16 tooth to 19 tooth for use with the buggy sized wheels. Part numbers for these pinions are RRP1116 (Robinson Racing) or ARW0600-16 (RW Racing). For different tooth counts, replace the '16' with the tooth count in the part number.

The 21 tooth pinion is the wrong ratio for the buggy sized wheels. The 21 tooth pinion is better suited for use with the standard motor and smaller rally car wheels. On the buggy, with a standard motor, the 19 tooth pinion is best. As you fit faster motors you need smaller pinion gears, like the suggested 16 tooth or 17 tooth.

I would also highly recommend swapping the plastic motor mount out for an aluminium 16T-21T motor mount. The plastic mount will flex with powerful motors and twist the gear mesh between the pinion and spur gears causing premature wear of both.

I run my DF01 buggy with a brushless 5700Kv MambaMax on 7.4v 4000mAh 25C Li-Po (alot more powerful than your 14 turn brushed setup). If I use a Tamiya aluminium pinion, the pinion and gearset are dust before the battery is flat in one run. I can get 100 runs from a steel pinion before I need to replace it. The plastic spur gear will last three pinion changes. As you can guess I drive my DF01 buggy a lot!

[Gruntfuggly 581]

If you haven't already, you should change all the plastic bushes for 1150 bearings too...

[TA-Mark 197]

If you haven't already, you should change all the plastic bushes for 1150 bearings too...

And the 850 size bearings too. These are brass standard.

Or get a TA01 bearing set, as these use the same bearing set as the DF01 (MantaRay). About $20 of bearings and worth every cent.

[Ouill 0]

Impressive!!! I didn't hope such a huge quality of answer!!!! I'm really impressed by such knwoledge! Thank you a lot!

So if I understand you correcty, this is the pinion gear on the motor and the gearing down (ratio) which are responsible for the incorrect wearing of the spur gear?

I'm just taking a look to the genuine pinion gear and the tooth are tottaly blunt! I will buy some of the them with the correct number of tooth by the two sellers you indicated.

And I will order too two TA02 plastic gearset #50529. To be sure you are refering to the same parts i'm thinking, is the image below is the exhaustive set of parts? :

Do the shafts, and the bevel gears of the Manta Ray fit also to theses parts or I need to buy those of the TA-02?

For the motor mount I already bought two of them in aluminium from Yeah Racing. I tried to install it but I removed it quickly because it seems to me that it was the cause of the destruction of the spur gear. I noticed the holes regarding the number of tooth of the pinion gear, but I belief the motor mount has a setup direction and I installed it in the wrong way... I'm just "dumb" and I will install it again

Last question, I don't understand what parts you are refering both by saying "plastic bushes" and "bearings"... Sorry

Thanks a lot for your help!!! I appreciate a lot and my son too

JP

[WillyChang 1820]

+1 to all above

also i like to change the screws that hold gearbox covers down to machine(fine) thread & longest possible shank.

Stock self-tapping screws can allow the covers to loosen.

If you're ordering parts buy some new gearbox casings too, they aren't expensive.

The casings can crack & screwholes will loosen with age.

Also you might want to stock up on some front shock tower sprues.

[TA-Mark 197]

The cause of the wear is the aluminium pinion gear on the motor. You will notice there is a greyish paste, or greyish dust inside the gearbox. This grey paste/dust was once the pinion gear.

That is correct gearset. If you have not fitted ball differentials to the MantaRay, one of the diff gears and thrust bearing race will not be used from the set. The front differential gear rarely wears so should not need to be replaced. The rear differential gear however will wear with the MantaRay's standard aluminium idler gear (centre gear of the picture you posted). The bevel gears are included in the TA02 gearset. The aluminium differential bevel gears (the 5 gears inside the differential) are not included in the set, but these should not wear if correctly lubricated.

The aluminium motor mount can be installed upside down by accident pretty easily. Compare it to the plastic one, then notch the aluminium one so you always know which is the bottom. The numbers on the motor mount will be incorrect if mounted upside down.

All of the shafts in the buggy are supported by bushings in the standard kit. The larger 1150 size are plastic, the smaller 850 size are brass. These fit inside inside the gears, support the differential outdrives, and support the axles. This link has an image of the required bearing set.

The shafts are the same between TA01 and DF01. The gearboxes are the same between TA01, TA02 and DF01.

Note that a TA02 uses a different bearing set as it has different front axles.

[Ouill 0]

Thanks for your advices all of you

TA-Mark, in order to answer to your last post :

- I was thinking the grey paste was the grease actually... I'm understanding now...

- I have not fitted ball differentials to the MantaRay, I'm still with genuine set of parts.

- Sorry for my misunderstanding but regarding my manual when I was refering to the bevel gears, I was thinking to the parts in red on the picture below. I'm thinking you are refering to the part in blue when you are saying that the "bevel gears are included in the TA02 gearset". Is it correct? If yes I understand the part you are naming bevel gears is on my manual the differentiel spur gear and the differential cover...

- Regarding the motor mount, I'm pleased to see that there is a direction of installation, I'm not too dumb finally

In conclusion, with your help and the purchase of theses parts :

- TA02 complete gearset (like on my picture)

- a steel gear pignion in 16 tooth

- a bearing set like on this link

I'm ready for 100 runs without damage on the gear system, right?

Cheers,

JP

[TA-Mark 197]

The bevel gears included with the TA02 gearset are in the first picture you posted. Centre top. These large plastic bevel gears are for the propshaft (the bent piece of wire) which transmits the power from the rear gearbox to the front gearbox.

The aluminium ones you have circled in red from inside the differential gear are not included in the set. These rarely wear out when lubricated well. The Tamiya anti-wear grease works great inside the differentials. Do not use the anti-wear grease for any other gears in the gearbox or it will make the model slow. Regular ceramic grease for the plastic gears.

The blue part you marked is the differential gear. There is only one of these included in the TA02 gearset as the rear differential in a TA02 is a ball differential (The large gear with the series of 8 holes around the centre).

You should get many more than 100 runs on the steel pinion. I get 100 runs with an extremely powerful brushless system. My son's DF01 has over 3 years of use and the pinion is still in good condition (5 or 6 runs each weekend). My son is using a 27 turn dirt tuned brushed motor. Your wear rate with the 14 turn brushed will be somewhere between these.

I would get both 16 tooth, 17 tooth and 18 tooth pinions. The pinions are under $4 each, and the postage is the same for 1 as it is for several. Fit the 17 tooth pinion first. If the motor seems to be screaming, and the model not going very fast, change to the 18 tooth. Or if the motor still appears overloaded with the 17 tooth pinion, change to 16 tooth. I was using 17 tooth pinions when I was running 13 turn brushed in my DF01. Not all motors perform the same, so it's handy to have a range of ratios.

[waterbok 1286]

also good to replace as you are running it hard

use these (steel end not plastic)

and 54048, 53217(for ball diff) and 53218

or use universal shaft 53791 (in front), either tamiya or one from some other manufacturer like gpm (same as shafts for dt-02)

and replace the propshaft with 3485025 but you would also need the 2 axles from 9805901

like these

good adress for bearings link

[Thommo 1501]

I would get both 16 tooth, 17 tooth and 18 tooth pinions. The pinions are under $4 each, and the postage is the same for 1 as it is for several.

That's awesome, where are you getting them from? While I'm on the hijack, what the heck is AV all about on Tamiya pinions?

[TA-Mark 197]

That's awesome, where are you getting them from? While I'm on the hijack, what the heck is AV all about on Tamiya pinions?

No idea what the AV means on Tamiya pinions. What you do need to know is that they are metric 0.6 module. Some hobby shops in Australia do stock the RW Racing and Robinson Racing steel pinions. OZ-RC in Geebung Brisbane has them I know. Or you can find them on ebay by searching the part number.

16T RRP1116 or ARW0600-16

17T RRP1117 or ARW0600-17

18T RRP1118 or ARW0600-18

19T RRP1116 or ARW0600-19

In Europe, I guess the best place is modelsport.co.uk. They have the RW Racing ones.

[waterbok 1286]

AV means AVOID!, thats tamiya being funny

[WillyChang 1820]

that size of pinion was first used on the AVante

[Tamiya Era 778]

Yes...

I think u should go for 16T~18T pinion gear.

I have them and they are steel.

If u are interested, PM me...http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/smile.png

Cheers

[TA-Mark 197]

Yes...

I think u should go for 16T~18T pinion gear.

I have them and they are Aluminum.

Useful as ammunition for the sling shot to shoot the mice in your shed!

Should you fit aluminium AV pinions to a model you intend to run? NEVER!!

[Thommo 1501]

No idea what the AV means on Tamiya pinions. What you do need to know is that they are metric 0.6 module. Some hobby shops in Australia do stock the RW Racing and Robinson Racing steel pinions. OZ-RC in Geebung Brisbane has them I know. Or you can find them on ebay by searching the part number.

16T RRP1116 or ARW0600-16

17T RRP1117 or ARW0600-17

18T RRP1118 or ARW0600-18

19T RRP1116 or ARW0600-19

In Europe, I guess the best place is modelsport.co.uk. They have the RW Racing ones.

Thanks TA-Mark, very helpful.

that size of pinion was first used on the AVante

OK, my only vintage cars are Astute & Egress which do use AV (0.6 mod). So these differ from other models that use equivilent to 32dp, Yeah?

[TA-Mark 197]

OK, my only vintage cars are Astute & Egress which do use AV (0.6 mod). So these differ from other models that use equivilent to 32dp, Yeah?

Tamiya vintage models with the larger tooth gears are also metric, but the larger 0.8 module.

32dp is an SAE (imperial) size pinion, like the finer 48dp. US made models are usually fitted with SAE pitch gears, threads and nut sizes.

32dp is so close to 0.8 module that they make a suitable replacement when replacing Tamiya's butter soft aluminium 0.8 module pinions with a more durable steel alternative. No other 'dp' size is close to the metric module sizes.

Note that the Robinson Racing metric 0.6 module pinions, being made in the US, need an SAE hex key to tighten the SAE hex screw. The same is true for SAE 32dp pinions.

[Thommo 1501]

Tamiya vintage models with the larger tooth gears are also metric, but the larger 0.8 module.

32dp is an SAE (imperial) size pinion, like the finer 48dp. US made models are usually fitted with SAE pitch gears, threads and nut sizes.

32dp is so close to 0.8 module that they make a suitable replacement when replacing Tamiya's butter soft aluminium 0.8 module pinions with a more durable steel alternative. No other 'dp' size is close to the metric module sizes.

Note that the Robinson Racing metric 0.6 module pinions, being made in the US, need an SAE hex key to tighten the SAE hex screw. The same is true for SAE 32dp pinions.

Thanks again, you really are an authority on the all the important stuff around here

Now where is this Manta Ray at ?

[Ouill 0]

Hi Guys!

Once again thanks all of you for your help and especially TA-Mark, cause you're right Thommo... In the past TA-Mark did you work in Tamiya Corp designing the models ??? It's amazing!

I didn't regret my subscription to this huge forum

Regarding my Manta Ray's... the two ones are becoming three cause I'd got two others ones in a trade on internet! They are in very bad state with a lot of missing parts but I've enough parts to create a third one

Actually when I was 13, my dad bought the two first ones for him and me. They are the two ones I describded in my first post, and I decided to give one of them to my son. But in a couple of weeks, we will be able to run 3 Manta Ray, me my son and my dad I promised you some pictures

But before that, I have first to order the parts : TA02 gearsets, steel pignions and bearing sets and finding the good ratios for each motors.

Nevertheless, I have two last questions :

- Can I keep my rear differential gear of the Manta Ray with the parts of the TA02 (spur gear, idle gear, propeller gear) ? Regarding your explanations I'm pretty sure it's doable but in order to be sure...

- Do you have any tricks to determine the direction of the motor mount from Yeah Racing. I took a glance quickly and it seemt to me very identic in a way or in the opposite...

Thanks a lot

JP

[TA-Mark 197]

- Can I keep my rear differential gear of the Manta Ray with the parts of the TA02 (spur gear, idle gear, propeller gear) ? Regarding your explanations I'm pretty sure it's doable but in order to be sure...

Yes, you can use the gear differentials front and rear with the TA02 gearset. I would fit the one new differential gear that is in the TA02 set into the rear gearbox. The front gearbox is not known to wear the differential gear.

Set aside the Ball differential gear that comes in the TA02 gearset. You may one day decide to change to ball differentials and this will become a valuable spare.

- Do you have any tricks to determine the direction of the motor mount from Yeah Racing. I took a glance quickly and it seemt to me very identic in a way or in the opposite...

The holes for the motor screws will be in different positions if the mount is upside down. Only way is to compare the hole locations very carefully to the plastic original. The GPM ones I usually buy are marked which is bottom. The Yeah Racing ones aren't marked.

In the past TA-Mark did you work in Tamiya Corp designing the models ??? It's amazing!

No. I would have made a few things differently as there are a few weaknesses in the chassis. There's some parts I'd redesign given the chance, and will do when I get myself a CNC mill. The rear top gear cover is an issue as it splits at the screw between the 2 shafts and allows the gears to skip. The rear damper tower is easily torn off the gearbox. I have both of these parts reinforced with aluminium angle on my main DF01 racer. Better parts would solve both problems.

I'd just been racing the DF01 chassis for quite a few years to learn how to make them somewhat reliable. It still is my favourite Tamiya 4WD shaft drive buggy chassis.

[Ouill 0]

Yes, you can use the gear differentials front and rear with the TA02 gearset. I would fit the one new differential gear that is in the TA02 set into the rear gearbox. The front gearbox is not known to wear the differential gear.

Set aside the Ball differential gear that comes in the TA02 gearset. You may one day decide to change to ball differentials and this will become a valuable spare.

Ok I will do so!

Only way is to compare the hole locations very carefully to the plastic original

I've just taking a look and it's obvious! I finally succeded to determine the right position !

I'd just been racing the DF01 chassis for quite a few years to learn how to make them somewhat reliable

Experience is the best way to knowledge!

I've just ordered my parts and they will be mine under 14 days (I hope)... I'll give you some news soon!

Bye,

JP

[Ouill 0]

Pinions and Gearsets received

I'm still waiting for the bearing set...

[Tamiya Era 778]

Useful as ammunition for the sling shot to shoot the mice in your shed!

Should you fit aluminium AV pinions to a model you intend to run? NEVER!!

sorry, i was mistaken. The are not aluminum. They are normal

cheers

[TA-Mark 197]

sorry, i was mistaken. The are not aluminum. They are normal

cheers

'Normal' Tamiya 0.6mod pinions are made from aluminium... Labelled as AV pinions and sold in pairs.

The only steel pinions in 0.6 module are RW Racing, or Robinson Racing. Except for some vintage models, which tooth counts are too small for a DF01, and the DF02 kit pinion (19 tooth, which seems to be hard to find outside the DF02 kit). There's also the HBX brass 0.6 module pinions if you look to the chinese clones.