Time Tamiya Lifted its game

[MadInventor 3884]

I'm not saying I have a lack of interest in building a RC car kit but I am saying building a RC car isn't always absolutely central to my RC car enjoyment experience. I'd be perfectly happy buying a RTR crawler kit like the Axial Wraith, strip it apart and tinker with it than get a unbuilt kit like the CR-01 purely because building the thing was central to my enjoyment of it.

As to Tamiya being on my radar. Like I said at the start of this thread Tamiya are purely about nostalgia for me. I have almost zero interest in their modern output (though I wish it were otherwise) The last modern kit I built ran and seriously enjoyed was the TXT-1. It has is flaws but generally its a superbly designed truck that is fun to build AND run, unlike its little brothers the F-350 and CR-01.

And the TXT-1 is one of very few kits that the chassis was not used for any other models. What a waste. With the clod temporarily out of production now would be the time for tamiya to make good use of the txt design. they could shorten the wheelbase to that of the clod (Same as the Jugg2, so use Jugg2 drive shafts and shorten the 4 links a bit), ditch the cantilever suspension and fit 8 hi lift dampers with stiff springs (grasshopper fronts fit, I've tried it) to make it look a bit more scale, drop a clod body on top modified with workable light clusters and a light bar and you've got a fantastic clod replacement.

Thats an easy to do kit which is different from anything T makes at the moment, uses all existing parts apart from 2 new chassis plates and some shorter 4 links. It's not that difficult to come up original ideas for a model, I've just managed it in the space of 10 minutes

Now this post is probably going to start a clod vs txt argument

PS I'm loving this thread in case you haven't noticed. Perhaps we can set up a SIG where people can post pics of original build models they have done that they would like tamiya to build. Perhaps when the designers get 'writers block' they will have somewhere to go for inspiration.

[bromvw 744]

Glad you like it Mad , i seem to have touched a nerve with many people and its a interesting debate

[mobias 0]

Now this post is probably going to start a clod vs txt argument

I'm tempted to but I won't bite that one Just to keep things on topic - when was the last time anyone here was seriously excited by a Tamiya release that WASN'T a re-re? I'm sure some of the on road fans here have had stuff to get excited about but how about all the off roaders? I guess for me it would have been the news that Tamiya were going to get into crawling with the CR-01, that was a while ago now. There's been nothing since then whatsoever and i have to say since getting back into the hobby in 2005 there's only been one other announcement that's got me excited - the new F-350 3speed. Seems a pitifully small amount of genuinely new kits and as has been said both are less than top notch.

And the TXT-1 is one of very few kits that the chassis was not used for any other models. What a waste. With the clod temporarily out of production now would be the time for tamiya to make good use of the txt design.

There were rumours two or three years ago that there was a TXT-2 in development. I remember one of the crawler websites saying an announcement was imminent. It was maybe confused with the development of the CR-01. I suspect the TXT days have been and gone. People seem to be much more into 2.2 size scale crawlers or the super fast truggy type monster trucks. With the Tamiya designers coming up with guff like the Vajra I'd hate to think what a TXT-2 would end up looking like anyway.

[MadInventor 3884]

I'm tempted to but I won't bite that one Just to keep things on topic - when was the last time anyone here was seriously excited by a Tamiya release that WASN'T a re-re? I'm sure some of the on road fans here have had stuff to get excited about but how about all the off roaders? I guess for me it would have been the news that Tamiya were going to get into crawling with the CR-01, that was a while ago now. There's been nothing since then whatsoever and i have to say since getting back into the hobby in 2005 there's only been one other announcement that's got me excited - the new F-350 3speed. Seems a pitifully small amount of genuinely new kits and as has been said both are less than top notch.

There were rumours two or three years ago that there was a TXT-2 in development. I remember one of the crawler websites saying an announcement was imminent. It was maybe confused with the development of the CR-01. I suspect the TXT days have been and gone. People seem to be much more into 2.2 size scale crawlers or the super fast truggy type monster trucks. With the Tamiya designers coming up with guff like the Vajra I'd hate to think what a TXT-2 would end up looking like anyway.

The F350 3 speed was probably the last new release I bought fairly shortly after it was released. I enjoyed building it, but was disappointed with the fun factor and ended up selling it after 2 or 3 runs. I can't honestly think of any other new model I've craved, and looking through the models that haven't been re-released already, I can't see many left that I would buy if they were re-released. After the experience of the F350 Hi-lift, and the probable price, I wouldn't go for a bruiser or mountaineer, I missed out on the Top Force re-re when they were reasonable money to buy, that would probably be my most likely purchase now if the price was right. I also liked the Hotshot II and probably buy one of those if the price was right. Other than that, what's left is looking fairly bland to me.

You're probably right about the TXT-2 never going to happen. It's a tough design to improve upon, and most people who want one probably already have one. Re people wanting 2.2 crawlers or fast truggy types, what about a 4wd blackfoot or clod body with F350 size tyres or original ranger tyres and a slight lift. Ditch the 3 speed gearbox, independent suspension all round, and geared to go fast with a brushless motor. Looks scale till you take the shell off and has the potential to go like hot snot. What majorly puts me off buying cars from other manufacturers is the poor apperance of the lexan jelly mould shells, so a model with a fairly scale shell and the potential to go fast with reasonable off road performance would fill a gap in the market.

I have considered putting my 8.5turn ezrun motor in my CC01 pajero and doing a video of it, just for a laff, but I know I'll probably trash the shell, having seen what it handles like on a silver can. Still, it would in completely the opposite direction to those modifying them for crawling

[tonysmini 19]

what about a 4wd blackfoot or clod body with F350 size tyres or original ranger tyres and a slight lift. Ditch the 3 speed gearbox, independent suspension all round, and geared to go fast with a brushless motor. Looks scale till you take the shell off and has the potential to go like hot snot

I have seen a few decent conversions done with the Dagger chassis, super fast brushless runners, hopped up crawlers, scale looking trucks with shorter arms and wheels that look right for the bodies.

If only the chassis didn't look so rough and the motors didn't stick out of the sides and you need two motors and two ESC's if you plan a brushless runner, I think it would be better appreciated.

[mobias 0]

T After the experience of the F350 Hi-lift, and the probable price, I wouldn't go for a bruiser or mountaineer, I missed out on the Top Force re-re when they were reasonable money to buy, that would probably be my most likely purchase now if the price was right. I also liked the Hotshot II and probably buy one of those if the price was right. Other than that, what's left is looking fairly bland to me.

Yeah I'm the same re Bruiser and Mountaineer. I can't image they'd ask less than about 500 quid for either and if I had that amount of money to spend (which I don't) I could buy two cheaper and probably better kits. There's still a few re-re's I'd buy if they came out like the Monster Beetle and Super Shot. I very much doubt we'll see either though. I will get a Wild One when its released, It'll be relatively inexpensive and I've always liked its scale looks.

what about a 4wd blackfoot or clod body with F350 size tyres or original ranger tyres and a slight lift. Ditch the 3 speed gearbox, independent suspension all round, and geared to go fast with a brushless motor. Looks scale till you take the shell off and has the potential to go like hot snot. What majorly puts me off buying cars from other manufacturers is the poor apperance of the lexan jelly mould shells, so a model with a fairly scale shell and the potential to go fast with reasonable off road performance would fill a gap in the market.

I guess something similar to that would be putting a fast motor in an Axial Honcho but to be honest scale trucks going really fast don't really appeal to me. Slow and steady is the way to go, stops you wrecking them too. I once put a Tamiya RZ 23T motor in my old F-350 when I had it. It just spent a lot of its time on its side or roof. I do like a bit of power but I would rather put that through something huge like the TXT or something versatile like the G-made R1. Rock racing is great fun but you've got to have something that can handle it. Maybe Tamiya could do a dedicated rock racer?

[MadInventor 3884]

Yeah I'm the same re Bruiser and Mountaineer. I can't image they'd ask less than about 500 quid for either and if I had that amount of money to spend (which I don't) I could buy two cheaper and probably better kits. There's still a few re-re's I'd buy if they came out like the Monster Beetle and Super Shot. I very much doubt we'll see either though. I will get a Wild One when its released, It'll be relatively inexpensive and I've always liked its scale looks.

I guess something similar to that would be putting a fast motor in an Axial Honcho but to be honest scale trucks going really fast don't really appeal to me. Slow and steady is the way to go, stops you wrecking them too. I once put a Tamiya RZ 23T motor in my old F-350 when I had it. It just spent a lot of its time on its side or roof. I do like a bit of power but I would rather put that through something huge like the TXT or something versatile like the G-made R1. Rock racing is great fun but you've got to have something that can handle it. Maybe Tamiya could do a dedicated rock racer?

I'd consider a supershot if it weren't for the fact I've already converted one of my hotshots to a supershot. I'm put off the wild one by the troublesome rear diff and the relatively low ground clearance.

Which brings us full circle back to the start of the thread. Tamiya needs to step it up a notch if they want to sell new kits to people already familiar with their products. I'm a self confessed tamiya nut and have owned pretty much all of their chassis at some point, including tanks and trucks. The trouble for tamiya is that now I've owned all those chassis, I know the faults with them and I'm not going to buy another one just because it has a different shell on it. I've not yet come across a design that doesn't have faults, but the TXT-1 is the closest they've come to a flawless design. My TXT is still pretty standard, very unusual for me as it's one of the vehicles I use the most. A dedicated rock racer would be nice to see, but have G-Made beaten tamiya to the marketplace with the R1. It's always difficult to muscle in on a market that another manufacturer is already starting to get established in. And that brings me back to 1/10 tractors. With the right gearing you can put massive torque through them at a very slow speed and they still move at a realistic rate. Ideal machines for serious off roading, mud running, pulling competitions, scale modelling with various attachments, etc. And here's the real oppurtunity, no-one, and I mean no-one, makes a 1/10 RC 4wd tractor. You've only got to look a the popularity of small model tractors for younger children to play with to realise that it's a potentially massive niche market that's just waiting to be exploited. I've already seen 1/16 tractor models being converted to RC by enthusiasts in other forums and on Youtube. RC tractors might not sell so well in Japan, but I think they would sell very well in the UK and America, which are probably equally large markets. I suspect that most of the RC WWII tanks are sold in Europe and the US, so why not produce another product that is more orientated to that sort of market, but completely different to the products already being produced ????

[bromvw 744]

I'd consider a supershot if it weren't for the fact I've already converted one of my hotshots to a supershot. I'm put off the wild one by the troublesome rear diff and the relatively low ground clearance.

Which brings us full circle back to the start of the thread. Tamiya needs to step it up a notch if they want to sell new kits to people already familiar with their products. I'm a self confessed tamiya nut and have owned pretty much all of their chassis at some point, including tanks and trucks. The trouble for tamiya is that now I've owned all those chassis, I know the faults with them and I'm not going to buy another one just because it has a different shell on it. I've not yet come across a design that doesn't have faults, but the TXT-1 is the closest they've come to a flawless design. My TXT is still pretty standard, very unusual for me as it's one of the vehicles I use the most. A dedicated rock racer would be nice to see, but have G-Made beaten tamiya to the marketplace with the R1. It's always difficult to muscle in on a market that another manufacturer is already starting to get established in. And that brings me back to 1/10 tractors. With the right gearing you can put massive torque through them at a very slow speed and they still move at a realistic rate. Ideal machines for serious off roading, mud running, pulling competitions, scale modelling with various attachments, etc. And here's the real oppurtunity, no-one, and I mean no-one, makes a 1/10 RC 4wd tractor. You've only got to look a the popularity of small model tractors for younger children to play with to realise that it's a potentially massive niche market that's just waiting to be exploited. I've already seen 1/16 tractor models being converted to RC by enthusiasts in other forums and on Youtube. RC tractors might not sell so well in Japan, but I think they would sell very well in the UK and America, which are probably equally large markets. I suspect that most of the RC WWII tanks are sold in Europe and the US, so why not produce another product that is more orientated to that sort of market, but completely different to the products already being produced ????

Something alone these lines maybe Mad ? I,am sure it would sell because the real thing is as fast as many cars on road . Awesum bit of off /on road farm kit

[WillyChang 1814]

you folks are forgetting the MAMMOTH DUMP TRUCK, how many bought that?

if T really wants to make some serious $$ for zero effort they should just take all the parts

of the Clod/TXT/TLT axle assemblies, throw them into a kitbox and they'd sell like hotcakes

then start re-making all those old OP parts items... why haven't they done that already?

Would've thought that was how good profits were made in the past, why not today?

[MadInventor 3884]

Something alone these lines maybe Mad ? I,am sure it would sell because the real thing is as fast as many cars on road . Awesum bit of off /on road farm kit

Some thing like that, yes. I have my own preferences and like the old County tractors that have equal size wheels and a transmission that gives better grip off road due to only having one diff, but I'm sure something like that would be a great seller. Cheap to make too, as no shock absorbers or complicated suspension to worry about, the gearbox can be bolted straight to the rear axle so fewer UJ to wear out, simple steering mechanism, etc, etc.

[MadInventor 3884]

you folks are forgetting the MAMMOTH DUMP TRUCK, how many bought that?

if T really wants to make some serious $$ for zero effort they should just take all the parts

of the Clod/TXT/TLT axle assemblies, throw them into a kitbox and they'd sell like hotcakes

then start re-making all those old OP parts items... why haven't they done that already?

Would've thought that was how good profits were made in the past, why not today?

Re the mammoth dump truck, you have a point there, but the dump truck is a much more complex model than a tractor, and hence quite expensive. (Somewhere in the same cost region as a TXT-1 ?) A tractor requires no rear suspension at all, no shock absorbers or springs, just a simple pivoting front axle and a very simple steering mechanism. The cost would go into making it look like a reasonable copy of the tractor it is based on, as it would be difficult to use a lexan shell. I'd think it of it more as cheap alternative to a tank or one of the big rigs. Something with a lot of detail, but also a model with great off road capability.

I believe tamiya already make TLT axles as kits. I have certainly seen axle kits for sale on ebay for tlt axles, and I think Hi lift axles as well.

I agree with you on the old option parts as well, there is certainly money to be made from selling old hop ups, I was really surprised when the re-re hotshot was released that tamiya didn't re-re the HP suspension kit and the underguard for it at the same time.

[mobias 0]

A dedicated rock racer would be nice to see, but have G-Made beaten tamiya to the marketplace with the R1. It's always difficult to muscle in on a market that another manufacturer is already starting to get established in.

Companies like G-made and Axial definitely have beaten Tamiya to the market place with kits like the R1 and Wraith but there's there's no doubt there's room for more I think. The Wraith is a good example of a kit which you really thought might have come from Tamiya. I know out of the box it looks a bit toy-ish but its a good combination of functionality and great scale looks, the two aren't always mutually exclusive in RC, though Tamiya seem to think otherwise, the CR-01 doesn't function particularly well and isn't particularly scale. I'd like to think the Wraith was a bit of a game changer for Tamiya, maybe they'll try something similar but take it up a another level. I'd also like to know what input Tamiya USA have in this sort of area. The scale crawler and rock racer market seems to be bigger in the USA than it is anywhere else in the world. Surely the US division of Tamiya see a market there which isn't being fed by the big T and which the company could do well in? Or maybe not....

[MadInventor 3884]

Companies like G-made and Axial definitely have beaten Tamiya to the market place with kits like the R1 and Wraith but there's there's no doubt there's room for more I think. The Wraith is a good example of a kit which you really thought might have come from Tamiya. I know out of the box it looks a bit toy-ish but its a good combination of functionality and great scale looks, the two aren't always mutually exclusive in RC, though Tamiya seem to think otherwise, the CR-01 doesn't function particularly well and isn't particularly scale. I'd like to think the Wraith was a bit of a game changer for Tamiya, maybe they'll try something similar but take it up a another level. I'd also like to know what input Tamiya USA have in this sort of area. The scale crawler and rock racer market seems to be bigger in the USA than it is anywhere else in the world. Surely the US division of Tamiya see a market there which isn't being fed by the big T and which the company could do well in? Or maybe not....

Just had a look at the wraith, it looks like a very well sorted model with some great attention to detail. Having looked at it quite quickly, I would say it is actually a much better quality kit than your average tamiya model and looks less like a toy than a lot of tamiya offerings. The chassis, body, and interior are clearly designed for scale looks, and look great, and everything else seems to have a clean, efficient design. Judging from the YToutube videos it appears to be fairly tough as well. Well done axial. Where can I buy one

Edit:

Just found out the the price of these. Ouch, that's pretty painful when I can get a TXT new for similar money....

[mobias 0]

Just had a look at the wraith, it looks like a very well sorted model with some great attention to detail. Having looked at it quite quickly, I would say it is actually a much better quality kit than your average tamiya model and looks less like a toy than a lot of tamiya offerings. The chassis, body, and interior are clearly designed for scale looks, and look great, and everything else seems to have a clean, efficient design. Judging from the YToutube videos it appears to be fairly tough as well. Well done axial. Where can I buy one

Edit:

Just found out the the price of these. Ouch, that's pretty painful when I can get a TXT new for similar money....

Believe me you get more fun out of a rock racer like the Wraith than you do out of a TXT, and that's coming from someone who loves their TXT. What I love about kits like the R1 and Wraith is that building the kit (or not if you buy RTR) is really just the beginning. Once you start modding the thing is when the real fun begins. And the Wraith is just one huge modding opportunity. Have a look at this thread and check out some of the rides. Unbelievably cool stuff going on http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/axial-wrait...-archive-6.html

Tamiya really need to do something like this

[Thommo 1217]

Believe me you get more fun out of a rock racer like the Wraith than you do out of a TXT, and that's coming from someone who loves their TXT. What I love about kits like the R1 and Wraith is that building the kit (or not if you buy RTR) is really just the beginning. Once you start modding the thing is when the real fun begins. And the Wraith is just one huge modding opportunity. Have a look at this thread and check out some of the rides. Unbelievably cool stuff going on http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/axial-wrait...-archive-6.html

Tamiya really need to do something like this

Do they? I think Tamiya would have started producing this type of rc years ago if they wanted to. They might never produce a rock racer because it just isn't their thing.

Tamiya need to lift there game! Do they? I'm pretty sure if you ask them, they are quite comfortable about their place in the market. I suspect that Tamiya are probably happy continuing to do what they do best and are not too concerned about what these other manufacturers are doing because Tamiya don't make rock racers and they don't make short corse trucks.

[bromvw 744]

Do they? I think Tamiya would have started producing this type of rc years ago if they wanted to. They might never produce a rock racer because it just isn't there thing.

Tamiya need to lift there game! Do they? I'm pretty sure if you ask them, they are quite comfortable about their place in the market. I suspect that Tamiya are probably happy continuing to do what they do best and are not too concerned about what these other manufacturers are doing because Tamiya don't make rock racers and they don't make short corse trucks.

Maybe its time they did Thommo .

[Thommo 1217]

Maybe its time they did Thommo .

Maybe they should, I just don't think they will or we would have seen them already.

[mobias 0]

Do they? I think Tamiya would have started producing this type of rc years ago if they wanted to. They might never produce a rock racer because it just isn't their thing.

Tamiya need to lift there game! Do they? I'm pretty sure if you ask them, they are quite comfortable about their place in the market. I suspect that Tamiya are probably happy continuing to do what they do best and are not too concerned about what these other manufacturers are doing because Tamiya don't make rock racers and they don't make short corse trucks.

But presumably Tamiya would like to sell even more models? If there's a steady market in an area Tamiya are yet to really tap into properly you'd think they'd be interested in it? It certainly looks like there would be no shortage of Tamiya fans that would be interested. Knowing their past RC engineering skill you'd think Tamiya would want to do it properly. So the questions remains - why don't Tamiya make rock racers, short course trucks and proper crawlers for that matter when there's obviously a thriving market for them and a market that may get even bigger if Tamiya got involved and did its bit to help develop it. Is it, as Twinset said in another thread a case of sour grapes that they haven't spearheaded the craze, in recent years anyway, so therefore don't want to be involved? Seems almost childish if that's the case. I agree with what MadInventor eluded to earlier in that they should really up their game by developing new ideas for off road vehicles and being as innovative as they once were.

[Thommo 1217]

That!

I think this pretty much sums up where Tamiya are at with tapping into new markets.

[MadInventor 3884]

I think this pretty much sums up where Tamiya are at with tapping into new markets.

I wonder if it doubles up as body filler ???

[Toyranosaur 0]

I just splurged & got 2 kits from Tower, having not built in a long time. I got the re-re Brat, and the HPI 240Z Cup Racer. They both cost exactly the same, $169.99. What a world of difference!! The Brat is, plainly speaking, a piece of you-know-what- Except for the body, it's a poorly engineered pile of ****. Tamiya seems to throw bags of screws at everything instead of properly designing. The HPI is stunning! Dual diffs, shaft drive, alloy dogbones, BEAUTIFUL Lexan shell, AMAZING scale looks, inboard front suspension, all in all a much higher-value, better looking, better performing kit. Now, I know the Brat is based on an older chassis, but still, they did some strange things with the front suspension that made me almost laugh: Who's doing their designing? If the chassis is not identical to the original, with 20+ years under their belt, you'd think it would be MORE advanced, not less so. I've always liked Tamiya, but have never deified them, and lately they are just asking for my scorn it seems. That said, there are a couple more cars I'd like to get, but it's getting harder to justify. Chris

[mobias 0]

I just splurged & got 2 kits from Tower, having not built in a long time. I got the re-re Brat, and the HPI 240Z Cup Racer. They both cost exactly the same, $169.99. What a world of difference!! The Brat is, plainly speaking, a piece of you-know-what- Except for the body, it's a poorly engineered pile of ****. Tamiya seems to throw bags of screws at everything instead of properly designing. The HPI is stunning! Dual diffs, shaft drive, alloy dogbones, BEAUTIFUL Lexan shell, AMAZING scale looks, inboard front suspension, all in all a much higher-value, better looking, better performing kit. Now, I know the Brat is based on an older chassis, but still, they did some strange things with the front suspension that made me almost laugh: Who's doing their designing? If the chassis is not identical to the original, with 20+ years under their belt, you'd think it would be MORE advanced, not less so. I've always liked Tamiya, but have never deified them, and lately they are just asking for my scorn it seems. That said, there are a couple more cars I'd like to get, but it's getting harder to justify. Chris

To be fair I think you're missing the point slightly. The Brat is an almost identical re-re of a kit that was designed in the early 80's. You're paying $169 for the vintage nostalgia of the thing and very little else. Obviously you could spend $169 on a more modern car and get a lot more performance for your money. Same argument but to a much greater degree with a kit like the Avante. You're paying all that money for a bit of vintage character and its great looks. You could obviously spend much less for a much better performing car but then again it wouldn't be an Avante. With the Brat and all the other old re-re's you're paying for a little dip in Tamiya history. Performance and modern design shouldn't be on your agenda

[bromvw 744]

Half the joy with me is getting hold of one of the older cars ie a blitzer then using my own ideas and designs to improve it . Wheres the fun in just getting out the plastic and buying a RTR ? Everything i ever build never remains standard for long so personally i dont see the point in buying re re as i'll only end up chaging it anyway . Thats why i will always buy from the likes of flea bay and go my own way . To me thats a true modeller . Theres more of a challange in bringing a 80's design up to the present day . However at the start of this tread i did say its time Tamiya lifted its game and i stand by that . High time they gave us a well designed high performance scale off roader .

[markbt73 5315]

To be fair I think you're missing the point slightly. The Brat is an almost identical re-re of a kit that was designed in the early 80's. You're paying $169 for the vintage nostalgia of the thing and very little else. Obviously you could spend $169 on a more modern car and get a lot more performance for your money. Same argument but to a much greater degree with a kit like the Avante. You're paying all that money for a bit of vintage character and its great looks. You could obviously spend much less for a much better performing car but then again it wouldn't be an Avante. With the Brat and all the other old re-re's you're paying for a little dip in Tamiya history. Performance and modern design shouldn't be on your agenda

I have to admit, I don't know what Tamiya's state-of-the-art kits are like to build or run. I have always turned to Associated for a "serious" vehicle when I wanted one, and I have always enjoyed building and running them immensely. I love Tamiya kits too, including the re-res, but they are what they are: large chunks of plastic held together by self-tapping screws. They hold up well, and are fun to mess around with, but something like an RC10 (of any age) is a completely different experience; it's more like working on a real piece of precision machinery. More work, but more rewarding, and generally holding my interest longer. I don't race anymore, but sometimes I do like to really spend some time with a high-performance machine and see what I can get it to do. (Which is why I find it so disappointing that you have to go all the way up to "Factory Team" specs to get a kit these days; where's the modeler-of-limited-means love, Associated?)

For anyone out there who has built and run both, how does, say, the TRF201 compare to the B4? Is it the same sort of precision build? Or is it just a DT02 with some shiny graphite parts? And does it respond to changes you make, and really reward some tuning patience, or is it like the lesser Tamiya cars, where nothing you do really makes it any worse, but nothing really makes it any better either?

[mtbkym01 4008]

For anyone out there who has built and run both, how does, say, the TRF201 compare to the B4? Is it the same sort of precision build? Or is it just a DT02 with some shiny graphite parts? And does it respond to changes you make, and really reward some tuning patience, or is it like the lesser Tamiya cars, where nothing you do really makes it any worse, but nothing really makes it any better either?

Haven't you heard? The TRF201 is known as the "Metric B4". It is a quality bit of kit and IS right at home on the track alongside RB5's, B4's and 22's.