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bromvw

Time Tamiya Lifted its game

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Believe me you get more fun out of a rock racer like the Wraith than you do out of a TXT, and that's coming from someone who loves their TXT. What I love about kits like the R1 and Wraith is that building the kit (or not if you buy RTR) is really just the beginning. Once you start modding the thing is when the real fun begins. And the Wraith is just one huge modding opportunity. Have a look at this thread and check out some of the rides. Unbelievably cool stuff going on http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/axial-wrait...-archive-6.html

Tamiya really need to do something like this

Does anyone here think that the cr-01 has scope to be developed to compete in this area? I've had my cr-01 unimog with very few mods (Waterproof radio, rear locked axle) on quite fast trails (mud, water, rocks, tree stumps, fast downhill stuff), and besides breaking the front prop once it does seem to be very strong and capable. its also got very good 3rd party AND tamiya hopups going for it. I'd love to see an evolution of that chassis designed to be a little faster and with a baja truck shell.

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Does anyone here think that the cr-01 has scope to be developed to compete in this area? I've had my cr-01 unimog with very few mods (Waterproof radio, rear locked axle) on quite fast trails (mud, water, rocks, tree stumps, fast downhill stuff), and besides breaking the front prop once it does seem to be very strong and capable. its also got very good 3rd party AND tamiya hopups going for it. I'd love to see an evolution of that chassis designed to be a little faster and with a baja truck shell.

Its fine for light crawling and as a beginners kit but once you've played with a real crawler you'll see that there's a world of difference in capability. The fundamental design problem with the CR-01 is the height of the battery tray. It just makes the chassis way too top heavy, its exactly the opposite of what you want. I've tried to turn my Unimog into a more capable kit by widening and lengthening the wheelbase to try and off set the high centre of gravity and it does help a bit but its just more money spent on an already expensive kit. The CR-01 could never be a rock racer as the gearbox is just all geared too low. I've tried putting a 23 turn motor with a 21t pinion through it and its not at all fast and the whole thing suffers from massive chassis twist, and that's the with the horrible canti suspension system removed. Its no where near the speed and stability of the R1 with the same motor in it. Having spent a lot of money faffing about trying to get the chassis to perform well I wished I'd just bought Junfac's Joker chassis conversion kit right from the off. http://www.junfac.com/shop/index.php?main_...954ed50abc01464

Considering the CR-01 axles and gearbox are all perfectly ok I'm surprised Tamiya haven't released a crawler that uses them but has a chassis similar to the Joker. Surely that wouldn't cost much to develop?

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Half the joy with me is getting hold of one of the older cars ie a blitzer then using my own ideas and designs to improve it . Wheres the fun in just getting out the plastic and buying a RTR ? Everything i ever build never remains standard for long so personally i dont see the point in buying re re as i'll only end up chaging it anyway . Thats why i will always buy from the likes of flea bay and go my own way . To me thats a true modeller . Theres more of a challange in bringing a 80's design up to the present day . However at the start of this tread i did say its time Tamiya lifted its game and i stand by that . High time they gave us a well designed high performance scale off roader .

+1.

Although tamiya competition cars have evolved, the 'fun' designs are still lodged in the 80s and have not really moved on. The CR-01 is massively overcomplicated, and most of the 4x4 buggies have too many gears in the transmission, which causes a lot of drag. Even the belt driven cars seem vastly more complicated with tensioner pulleys and multiple belts than they need to be, especially when compared with the simplicity of the CAT xls and the optima mid from the 80s.

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So the questions remains - why don't Tamiya make rock racers, short course trucks and proper crawlers for that matter when there's obviously a thriving market for them and a market that may get even bigger if Tamiya got involved and did its bit to help develop it. Is it, as Twinset said in another thread a case of sour grapes that they haven't spearheaded the craze, in recent years anyway, so therefore don't want to be involved? Seems almost childish if that's the case.

If Tamiya has said "Not Invented Here" and thus has no interest in entering those markets, that's one thing. But I don't believe they have; instead, I have a suspicion that it's plain ol' Observers' Prejudice. Rather like asking why Lotus doesn't make a large luxury sedan with a low-revving V8, and getting all antsy about it :lol:

I agree with what MadInventor eluded to earlier in that they should really up their game by developing new ideas for off road vehicles and being as innovative as they once were.

Is being innovative making Yet Another Short Course Truck or a rock racer (whatever that is? Not come across that before) the kind of which already saturate the market? How would that be innovative?

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To be fair I think you're missing the point slightly.

"Slightly"? Lol :lol:

I don't need a self-driving robot of a car, and if I did, I'd buy something all space-shippy and RTR that requires zero effort except typing the digits of my plastic into a text field. But I would like a relatively affordable repeat of something I couldn't afford when I was a kid without having to buy a worn-out horror off eBay. The bag-of-bolts Brat will do that nicely for me (although it is expensive; at £130 typical retail in the UK, it's about thirty pounds more than I think it's worth). And whaddya know, this is the re-re forum :lol:.

I wonder if younger generations are looking at something "scale" like the Brat, from 1982, and wondering "hmm, that's a rubbish short crust truck. What were they thinking"...

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ok lets look at this objectively . Tamiya have a strong fan base but i belive its mostly with serious older 'dads' who are reliving their youth or building for their kids/ grandkids . Thats fine if you want to sell to a limited market that will shrink over time . However if Tamiya want to grow their market share they need to compete within the RC sector . That means designing and SELLING things that are on the same level as the other companys . Thats common sence . Take Landrover as a example . They have had to bow to the wants of the public by building smaller and lighter 4x4's . The same can and should appliy to Tamiya . They need to give the customers what they want . If there is demand for a rock crawler , a rock racer or a short course truck then for heavens sake BUILD ONE . Reading this thead its fairly obvious that Tamiya need to do more market research . In other words to, ' Lift Their Game '

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I'm not missing any point, and nothing is 'Obvious' or there would be no reason for this discussion. I was making a point, that being, since this thread is about Tamiya 'Upping its Game', that from a value-for-dollar standpoint, they could do a few small things (Like hex hardware, tyres that aren't plasticky, etc.) that would make their re-re's more appealing to a buyer. I don't need to have Tamiya nostalgia explained to me, thanks though: That's just why I bought it. I'm not looking for nor expecting performance: Simply put, the fact is since one may purchase a much nicer kit for the same money from many manufacturers, that takes out half of their potential target market of such kits: Newbies and 'nostalgia' buyers- The nostalgia chaps, like myself, may get them, but newbies have much better choices. Ergo, if their re-re's & lower-end kits were nicer, they might sell more, or is this too deep? And their engineering on all but their highest-end cars is still mostly hardware with some plastic to give the (Phillips-head) screws somewhere to thread into: Look at the CR-01 compared to any other crawler. 10 lbs. of screws & some other parts. Not impressive! Seemed like a knee-jerk reaction to shove a truck out the door because they were popular- If you wanna try to defend that design, by all means, feel free. Chris

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Chris if you read the whole tread thats my point entirely . I'am 100 % with you on this . Thats why i started this discussion . Tamiya need to lift their game and stop re hashing old kits . IF they must do re re at least fix the issues on the original designs . They could try to stick with the original body moldings for one thing instead of just dipping into the parts bin ie blitzer having the re re sand scorcher body and doing us a 'favour' by chucking in some wing mirrors and bearings to make us belive its better value . Come on Tamiya its time bearings were the norm on all kits and not cheap nylon junk . Same gos for the monkey metal pinions . ONLY place for them is the nearest bin .

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ok lets look at this objectively . Tamiya have a strong fan base but i belive its mostly with serious older 'dads' who are reliving their youth or building for their kids/ grandkids . Thats fine if you want to sell to a limited market that will shrink over time . However if Tamiya want to grow their market share they need to compete within the RC sector . That means designing and SELLING things that are on the same level as the other companys . Thats common sence . Take Landrover as a example . They have had to bow to the wants of the public by building smaller and lighter 4x4's . The same can and should appliy to Tamiya . They need to give the customers what they want . If there is demand for a rock crawler , a rock racer or a short course truck then for heavens sake BUILD ONE . Reading this thead its fairly obvious that Tamiya need to do more market research . In other words to, ' Lift Their Game '

As they stand those are all valid points, but by coming so late to the game in sectors they've not traditionally been active in, for whatever reason, they may find it hard (read: negative value) to gain share, especially if those sectors have less longevity. There will always be demand for crawlers, especially scale crawlers, where Tamiya is pretty active anyway (and I don't know enough about why people don't like what they make). From what I read here and elsewhere, what everyone seems to want - or what everyone says that everyone else wants - is the same - a ready-to-run jet-propelled short-course truck that looks like a Traxxas or an HPI. If Tamiya was really to put its innovation horsepower to good use, it would come up with something different to that and create a niche of its own.

But it is a guarantee that if Tamiya came to market with an XB me-too short-course truck, it would cost too much money, and the great majority of the market that doesn't own or like Tamiya would denounce it. In fact you could probably hear the clips being emptied into it metaphorically (and they say on the internet no-one can hear you scream!).

No doubt the re-re "craze" (well, not a craze, more a "period of time") will dry up. What Tamiya comes up with then will be more interesting. Perhaps at the moment they are selling all the re-res they can make...

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Chris and Bromvw are both making good points here.

The Re-re market is obviously very lucrative to tamiya and I don't think many people who are members here would want them to stop doing that, I certainly wouldn't, but the last few rehashes could have been made a lot better with minimal changes (BFIII & MBII notably), so there is room for improvement with the quality of the ReRes.

As Chris points out, the CR-01 is an over weight, over complicated design. With simplicity of design and fewer components comes cheaper kits. Again, there is room for improvement. Tamiya do have tendency to overcomplicate their model designs.

Someone commented earlier in the thread that the fun for them with tamiya was modifying the kit to get more out of it after buying it. This tells me that tamiya are only selling an approximation of what people want, and the average modleller needs to tinker with or majorly modify the vehicle in order to be satisfied with it. Whoever you were, hope I haven't misquoted you ;)

With the SCTs and rock racers, I think that if tamiya were to introduce models of this type they would struggle to compete with the already established manufacturers. Would someone who already owns a slash really go and buy a tamiya SCT as well, knowing that it will probably be more expensive, less durable, heavier and slower ??? The bottom line is they missed the boat with regard to rock crawling and SCTs, and anything they release now will be shutting the stable door after the horse is disappearing over the horizon.

And my own final point, T manages to sell very high cost tanks and big rigs and make a profit at it, they were building them long before anyone else and therefore dominated the market, and still do, even with Heng Long as cheap competition. Think of the risk tamiya took when they released the first full option tanks. They were massively expensive in comparison to anything that had been sold before, and it would have a large gamble as to whether they would have sold in numbers. Time for tamiya to show the same sort of courage and put something completely different on the market. I think that the next untapped pool of cash for them would be high detail scale RC models of a different type. It's not too much of a stretch to go from a tank to a scale WWII wiilys jeep (Thats World War II folks, not Wild Willy II :) ), or something like a CAT dozer, or top of my wish list, a 4x4 tractor. If people are building these things themselves from scratch, it means that there is a market out there for an alternative affordable scale model (And for anyone who buys a new tamiya tank, pretty much anything else in the tamiya line up is affordable). The big rigs were clearly tailored for the american market when first released, and now models of european rigs are appearing to soak up more sales in europe, so it doesn't necessarily follow that a model has to sell well in Japan in order for it to be a success for them. It seems that their bread and butter models are more and more becoming 1/10 on road cars, but it doesn't mean that they cannot be inventive in other areas

Discuss ;)

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Bromvy, it does seem we're both correct (And Geniuses!) I simply opine that they should go the extra little distance when they introduce-Or re-introduce- anything, and remain the high-quality company they're always been rather than try to be the Wal-Mart of R/C, over analyzing the price point & such. Basically, put out product geared towards the chaps who are willing to spend 5 or 10% more for, as you mention, the bearings & pinion (Good point BTW,) a few less screws & a bit more actual design, RUBBER tyres, etc. badword, they could do all that plus add a decal sheet for the 2nd body, hex hardware, etc. if they just left out the ESC. I see why they include it, for the new guys, but I have a million ESC's would rather have a better kit. Anyway, enough beating on the Brat I guess, I'm actually thinking of CNCing up some wheels for it, since it'll be a shelf Queen after all. (And I actually don't have a million ESC's, so nobody PM me looking for a free one!) Chris

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There will always be demand for crawlers, especially scale crawlers, where Tamiya is pretty active anyway (and I don't know enough about why people don't like what they make).

I'm not trying to speak for anyone, this is just my personal view. I like my CC01, it's quite capable but these have been around for donkey's years. I had a CR01, but it's over-complicated, over-engineered and overweight - and it doesn't look like a scale truck because there's huge lumps of chassis hanging underneath. Compared to the simple, effective and scale-looking Axial SCX10, it's not good. I love my Tundra, despite the dangling transmission, but again it's a platform that's been around for some time and would benefit from some development.

Imagine what they could do - Bruiser style chassis, CR01 (or new design) single speed transmission, narrowed 3 speed axles with the option of leaf sprung or 4 link. Could be variations for a huge choice of bodies; Hilux, Tundra, F350, Fj40, Wrangler, Unimog, Pajero and why not the Clod, Brat and F150 too? It's almost a parts bin special but if it was done, and done well, could be huge.

Something that has come up regularly in this discussion is demand for 'scale' vehicles. What I'd really like to see Tamiya do is go back to the original ethos of 'scale models suitable for radio control'. With modern design and materials the potential is enormous.

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I'm not trying to speak for anyone, this is just my personal view. I like my CC01, it's quite capable but these have been around for donkey's years. I had a CR01, but it's over-complicated, over-engineered and overweight - and it doesn't look like a scale truck because there's huge lumps of chassis hanging underneath. Compared to the simple, effective and scale-looking Axial SCX10, it's not good. I love my Tundra, despite the dangling transmission, but again it's a platform that's been around for some time and would benefit from some development.

Imagine what they could do - Bruiser style chassis, CR01 (or new design) single speed transmission, narrowed 3 speed axles with the option of leaf sprung or 4 link. Could be variations for a huge choice of bodies; Hilux, Tundra, F350, Fj40, Wrangler, Unimog, Pajero and why not the Clod, Brat and F150 too? It's almost a parts bin special but if it was done, and done well, could be huge.

Something that has come up regularly in this discussion is demand for 'scale' vehicles. What I'd really like to see Tamiya do is go back to the original ethos of 'scale models suitable for radio control'. With modern design and materials the potential is enormous.

Amen :)

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I agree that when we think of Tamiya, buy enlarge we think scale. It just appears that T's focus has moved away from the off-road cars we all grew up with to on-road vehicles (cars and lorries) and tanks. I think the view of what Tamiya is actually up to and where it should be heading by this club is skewed by the fact that they're actually not doing what they were doing when we were buying the cars they were focused on when we first experienced their genius.

In some ways, I'm GLAD that they haven't got into crawling or short course trucks and followed the likes of HPI, Axial and Traxxas lemming stylee just because their captive audience of the 80's thinks that they should be. What appears to have happened is that they've kept their design philosophy of making "scale models suitable for RC", but because the kinds of people that buy contemporary versions of the cars they made 30 years ago appear to be less concerned about scale, and more concerned about jumping their car 50ft off the ground at 40 mph then posting the video on You-Tube, perhaps Tamiya felt they needed to concentrate their efforts on consumers that DO want realism and scale looks; namely the drifters and touring car racers.

The re-re's are what you and me concentrate on, because this clubs members tend to be dewey eyed 30 somethings who had a Hornet or Monster Beetle when they were a kid. Unfortunately, the re-re's to Tamiya are just nostalgic nods to a by gone era partly to keep its fans like us happy, and partly as a hook to get other 30 somethings like us back into the hobby, but they're not where the T drive is and therefore shouldn't be used as a basis for a belief that Tamiya needs to up its game.

Take a look at the video of the Tamiya stand at the Tokyo show. Take a look at the wealth of really nice on-road kit there, then see the little space dedicated to the re-re's, put both of those things into perspective and you'll see where I'm coming from; Tamiya doesn't need to up its game at all, it's just doing very well at doing something other than we're used to.

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I think Tamiya's game plan is sound. They have RC line ups that appeals to the masses, and a wealth of RC related products like paints, tools, motors, batteries, hop ups all waiting to take money from you. Just look at its catalogue. It has stuff for kids from educational to robocraft series and the mini 4WD. All to introduce the Tamiya brand to kids/children and loyalties as they grow up.

If you are just entering this hobby or like to sample different RC applications, Tamiya is your best bet. Sure there are much better RC models by other makes out there that are better design for that purpose from tanks, crawlers, buggies/stadium trucks etc. But you have to pay more. If one has deep pocket where nothing but the best will do, than Tamiya may not be your choice. But most of us don't want to spend a pile of money not knowing if one would like it, and Tamiya lets you enter / taste that specific RC field before seriously getting into it. Is like playing golf, most people don't spend $10K on a set of clubs when they first try the game of golf. Reason? Money mainly and second most people don't want to spend the money just incase golf is not their game. And your average clubs could be good enough for most players and can't blame the high scope on your clubs if you have the best already :) .

I am your typical RC guy where I like to try different RC from comical type like Willy to F1 type to ships, but not into it enough to buy from niche companies that specialize in one particular area and remain there. I am sure some just like tanks or crawlers only and Tamiya will not meet their requirements.

I would say Tamiya is like a Swiss Army knife, pretty good over all but not out standing or the best in one particular field, but appeal to the masses.

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Having spent a lot of money faffing about trying to get the chassis to perform well I wished I'd just bought Junfac's Joker chassis conversion kit right from the off. http://www.junfac.com/shop/index.php?main_...954ed50abc01464

Considering the CR-01 axles and gearbox are all perfectly ok I'm surprised Tamiya haven't released a crawler that uses them but has a chassis similar to the Joker. Surely that wouldn't cost much to develop?

I agree that the gearing and COG spoil the model but I have a feeling if it retailed for £100 less it would have gained a much larger fan base then it did and perhaps had even more hopups available from tamiya including a similar chassis to the joker one. These hopups require some outlay and development on Tamiyas part and if the fanbase (potential sales) isn't there i guess they c.b.a.

That chassis does look mighty fine though...

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I feel that many peopel here do not understand one thing.

Tamiya is a Japanese company. If you understand that it will explain a lot to you.

Buggies are not popular here in Japan at all

Crawlers are not popular here in Japan at all

The people that have crawlers and buggies here in Japan have a few but many more on road cars

The biggest market for RC here in Japan is Drift

Traxxas is not popular here in Japan at all

Axiel is not popular here in Japan at all

You really have to think about Japan and not where you live.

Its the same as asking Pink Floyd to make pop songs or Lady Gaga to sing a death metal song.

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I feel that many peopel here do not understand one thing.

Tamiya is a Japanese company. If you understand that it will explain a lot to you.

Buggies are not popular here in Japan at all

Crawlers are not popular here in Japan at all

The people that have crawlers and buggies here in Japan have a few but many more on road cars

The biggest market for RC here in Japan is Drift

Traxxas is not popular here in Japan at all

Axiel is not popular here in Japan at all

You really have to think about Japan and not where you live.

Its the same as asking Pink Floyd to make pop songs or Lady Gaga to sing a death metal song.

Whilst I get that, it's a bit short sighted isn't it? Tamiya may be based in Japan but they have a GLOBAL market. To use your example of music, if a Japanese band only sung their songs in Japanese, they'd only ever be popular in Japan. If they wanted to tour and be popular all over the world, they'd have to sing in English.

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I feel that many peopel here do not understand one thing.

Tamiya is a Japanese company. If you understand that it will explain a lot to you.

Buggies are not popular here in Japan at all

Crawlers are not popular here in Japan at all

The people that have crawlers and buggies here in Japan have a few but many more on road cars

The biggest market for RC here in Japan is Drift

Traxxas is not popular here in Japan at all

Axiel is not popular here in Japan at all

You really have to think about Japan and not where you live.

Its the same as asking Pink Floyd to make pop songs or Lady Gaga to sing a death metal song.

I know exactly what you are talking about. You have to understand some think they are at the center of the Universe and the Sun revolves around the Earth. :D

If I am not interested in Re-re, I'll be upset with Tamiya for not releasing any new models vs few years back when Tamiya was release new models and fewer re-re while I was interested in re-re, which I was not happy. Guess Tamiya can't please everyone...everytime. :rolleyes:

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I feel that many peopel here do not understand one thing.

Tamiya is a Japanese company. If you understand that it will explain a lot to you.

Buggies are not popular here in Japan at all

Crawlers are not popular here in Japan at all

The people that have crawlers and buggies here in Japan have a few but many more on road cars

The biggest market for RC here in Japan is Drift

Traxxas is not popular here in Japan at all

Axiel is not popular here in Japan at all

You really have to think about Japan and not where you live.

Its the same as asking Pink Floyd to make pop songs or Lady Gaga to sing a death metal song.

As SteelRat says, Tamiya are a global company with global interests. Why was Tamiya USA set up? Presumably to not help develop and cater for the Japanese market. Tamiya obviously like to sell models all over the world and pander to Western tastes too occasionally.

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I know exactly what you are talking about. You have to understand some think they are at the center of the Universe and the Sun revolves around the Earth. :rolleyes:

Irony: Not something you do to take the creases out of your clothes.

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Whilst I get that, it's a bit short sighted isn't it? Tamiya may be based in Japan but they have a GLOBAL market. To use your example of music, if a Japanese band only sung their songs in Japanese, they'd only ever be popular in Japan. If they wanted to tour and be popular all over the world, they'd have to sing in English.

And this is why you dont hear Japanese bands anywhere but Japan.

Name any of the top ten musicians in Japan?

They dont need to sing in English because they are plenty popular in Japan.

Tamiya doesnt really have a global market for thing other than what they make for Japan.

There very few models for any market other than Japan.

Even models like the Daytona Thunder and Street Devil where made because there was a huge boom for America style cars in Japan.

The F103GT was made after the Corally CCT was popular here in Japan.

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As SteelRat says, Tamiya are a global company with global interests. Why was Tamiya USA set up? Presumably to not help develop and cater for the Japanese market. Tamiya obviously like to sell models all over the world and pander to Western tastes too occasionally.

Tamiya USA is just a wharehouse, name one thing that came out of there? Rear suspension arms for a TRF car? Even Tamiya America staff have been on here and told us that they can not order parts and just sell whatever Tamiya Japan send them.

That off road truggy thing they sold,something called the 801 or something like that. It came out AFTER Tamiya designed a new off road 1/8th scale track in Sagamido. That is where Tamiya holds its 1/8th off road races.

The Tundra is made in America but is popular here with Japanese people that import them and drive them in Japan. I see Tundras everyday on the roads here.

There is a slight chance you might see a SCT as they are starting to get a little popular,but its because Yokomo imports Associatied and runs them at thier track.

The longer I live here the more I see that Tamiya does not worry about overseas,and the stick with what they like and what is popular here in Japan.

There isnt a model that Tamiya makes that you cant trace back to Japan interest and booms in popularity of RC and real cars.

It might seem strange but Japan is the of the world for Tamiya,just as America is the center of the world for Traxxas.

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There very few models for any market other than Japan.

Yet there are still some. As you yourself said - 'Buggies are not popular here in Japan at all. Crawlers are not popular here in Japan at all' Yet Tamiya make them so presumably these are the 'few models' they do make for the global market place where they are more popular? Tamiya are obviously a Japanese company focussed on what sells best back home but a certain small percentage of what they do will have an eye for the global market otherwise they wouldn't have set up Tamiya USA or Tamiya Europe to help market and develop sales in those Western countries.

ps You do hear Japanese bands outside Japan. As a mater of fact there's a few Japanese DJ's I really admire like Susumu Yokota. :)

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And this is why you dont hear Japanese bands anywhere but Japan.

Name any of the top ten musicians in Japan?

They dont need to sing in English because they are plenty popular in Japan.

Tamiya doesnt really have a global market for thing other than what they make for Japan.

There very few models for any market other than Japan.

Even models like the Daytona Thunder and Street Devil where made because there was a huge boom for America style cars in Japan.

The F103GT was made after the Corally CCT was popular here in Japan.

So can we take this as confirmation that the Japanese market is craving re-releases?

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