Sidewinder SCT 3800 kV system

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I was browsing Tower for a brushless motor system and came across Castle's Sidewinder SCT 3800 kV system for $125. With a super saver coupon and free shipping through Thursday, the combo price is more like $110. This seems like a reasonable deal considering it comes with an oversized 1410 4-pole motor.

Anybody have any experience with these systems? I previously owned a Sidewinder SV2 5700 kV system and found it difficult to control the motor temperature, even with proper gearing per their chart and with an extra blower fan mounted on the motor can. The main difference I see between the two systems is that the SV2 system came with a CM36 2-pole motor (I bought one of the first production runs) and the SCT system comes with a 1410 4-pole motor.

The way I'm looking at it is this:

- The CM36 5700 kV was a 2-pole design and it was a pain trying to keep it cool under continuous bashing.

- The 1406 series is a 4-pole design and supposedly produces 30% more torque than a CM36 (more efficient at the same load)

- The 1410 series is also a 4-pole design, but the rotor and stator are 40% longer than the 1406, so it should produce even more torque (even more efficient at the same load)

I'm thinking with the lower kV rating, 4-pole rotor, and longer rotor and stator this motor should be able to handle the same 4WD buggy application much better than the CM36.

The 1410 is the same diameter as the CM36; the 1410 is only 10 mm longer than the CM36... I don't see a problem mounting it in my buggy.

What do you think?

-Paul

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

Well, I ordered the system... It seems like a good motor that should run cool in lighter, non-SCT models...

-Paul

[TA-Mark 195]

Check the motor dimensions listed there on the Castle website. The 1406 is a longer can than the CM36S, and the 1410 is even longer again. Make sure there's enough room in your chassis to fit it. Most cars are OK with 10mm extra can length, some though are a tight fit with a CM36S.

I was thinking of putting a 3800Kv 1406 in the FAV, but it don't fit. So I put in a CM36S 4600Kv instead and adjusted the acceleration curve in the software so they would be the same top speed at 99% throttle.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I'm throwing this setup in a DF02; there's a short plastic wall about 5 mm behind the stock silver can, but with a little trimming to match the motor diameter the length won't be any problem.

-Paul

[TA-Mark 195]

I would have said the 5700Kv is too hot for the limited gear ratios in the DF02 buggy, so I don't doubt you had motor heat issues. Suitable in my opinion for the 4600Kv or lower (Using a 16 or 17 tooth pinion with the 4600Kv).

The 3800Kv motor with 18 tooth or 19 tooth pinions should work out just fine in the DF02. This also will depend on wheel size of course.

[chevyman3 0]

tower also has the DuraTrax 1/10 Element 3900kV Brushless System for 119.00 witch is made by Castle. http://www.duratrax.com/motors/dtxc3122.html

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

tower also has the DuraTrax 1/10 Element 3900kV Brushless System for 119.00 witch is made by Castle. http://www.duratrax.com/motors/dtxc3122.html

That's interesting... Yesterday it was $129 instead of $119. I will say, though, that the Duratrax system is coming with a 1406-style motor instead of a 1410. Give me the torque and efficiency of the 1410!

-Paul

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I would have said the 5700Kv is too hot for the limited gear ratios in the DF02 buggy, so I don't doubt you had motor heat issues. Suitable in my opinion for the 4600Kv or lower (Using a 16 or 17 tooth pinion with the 4600Kv).

The 3800Kv motor with 18 tooth or 19 tooth pinions should work out just fine in the DF02. This also will depend on wheel size of course.

Lesson learned the hard way here...

-Paul

[chevyman3 0]

That's interesting... Yesterday it was $129 instead of $119. I will say, though, that the Duratrax system is coming with a 1406-style motor instead of a 1410. Give me the torque and efficiency of the 1410!

-Paul

I seen this asked before on another Board and Castle stated this "the only difference between the 1406 and 1410 motors is the kv and length."

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I seen this asked before on another Board and Castle stated this "the only difference between the 1406 and 1410 motors is the kv and length."

The 1406 product page suggests it can produce 30% more torque than the CM36: http://www.castlecreations.com/products/nc1406.html

The Sidewinder SCT page suggests the 1410 can produce 50% more torque than the CM36: http://www.castlecreations.com/products/sidewinder_sct.html

So there does appear to be a difference between the 1406 and 1410...

I also watched a review of the SCT system at

, and there's a visible difference in rotor magnets...

I'm eager to drop this in and go bashing.

-Paul

[chevyman3 0]

The 1406 product page suggests it can produce 30% more torque than the CM36: http://www.castlecreations.com/products/nc1406.html

The Sidewinder SCT page suggests the 1410 can produce 50% more torque than the CM36: http://www.castlecreations.com/products/sidewinder_sct.html

So there does appear to be a difference between the 1406 and 1410...

I also watched a review of the SCT system at

, and there's a visible difference in rotor magnets...

I'm eager to drop this in and go bashing.

-Paul

I have to turn the punch control way down on them in almost all my bashing sessions or the wheels just spin and spin, almost ridiclous, if you don't already have the link or field card get one it's worth it.

also the SV2 and SCT esc's are the same you just can buy the SV2 by it self and combo.The SCT is just a combo with the fan and motor.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

You're right. I went for the SCT combo, though, because the motor by itself was more expensive than the combo (at the same retailer). If the motor was reasonably priced I would have just bought the motor and mated it to my SV2 ESC.

-Paul

[chevyman3 0]

You're right. I went for the SCT combo, though, because the motor by itself was more expensive than the combo (at the same retailer). If the motor was reasonably priced I would have just bought the motor and mated it to my SV2 ESC.

-Paul

yep the CC combo is the way to go if you are going to buy a castle motor for sure .real good deal with super great customer support I have called them a few times for a couple of my airplane esc's and they are great. i have a couple of Tacons and Hobby wing motors so i also have 2 SV2's to use with those.

[Theibault 1535]

I run this combo in my race SC104x4 and it is a missle! It has no problem keeping up with others running 4.5 550 motors. This motor has an unbelievable amount of torque. I think your DF02 will pull wheelies. The top speeds are amazing as well. I'm thinking of getting a second combo to use in my bashers. Very happy with this combo. Make sure you gear right and keep an eye on your temps. The motor runs supper cool, so I zip tied the included motor fan over the ESC. It's a perfect fit but you may also want to sticky tape it to the sides. I did have it get askew on zip ties alone after some hard landings.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I run this combo in my race SC104x4 and it is a missle! It has no problem keeping up with others running 4.5 550 motors. This motor has an unbelievable amount of torque. I think your DF02 will pull wheelies. The top speeds are amazing as well. I'm thinking of getting a second combo to use in my bashers. Very happy with this combo. Make sure you gear right and keep an eye on your temps. The motor runs supper cool, so I zip tied the included motor fan over the ESC. It's a perfect fit but you may also want to sticky tape it to the sides. I did have it get askew on zip ties alone after some hard landings.

If my DF02 pulls wheelies and the motor runs cool, I will be super happy. You can never have too much power on tap, just a smoother trigger finger!

I have a temp gun, so I'll be curious to see how warm the combo gets. Mounting the blower fan over the ESC instead of the motor sounds like the right move based on reviews and others' experiences.

-Paul

[TA-Mark 195]

I doubt either will get warm with the SCT and 3800Kv pushing only a 1.5kg buggy. These systems are designed for the much larger, heavier SCTs. Fan could probably be left off to save weight and a small amount of runtime.

I was always concerned about the plastic driveline parts in my DF02, so it's done very little work with a brushless fitted. Main propshaft, diff outdrives, axles I would want all upgraded.

The buggy doesn't mind having dampers that are 7-10mm longer than standard fitted too. Raises the ride height which is a problem stock (Only really good on a flat track). Note that you do need adjustable upper links when fitting longer dampers to maintain wheel cambers. DF01 (Top Force) or DF03 turnbuckle sets fit to the DF02 fine.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

Yeah, last year I was running the DF02 with the 5700kV SV2 system all summer and fall and wore through a set of Dirt Hawgs mounted to DF03 wheels. I could go about 20 minutes before I'd have to stop and give the motor a break. The larger wheels and tires helped with ground clearance, and some clips on the rear dampers helped with some sag back there. I drove that buggy on asphalt, through grass, in soccer fields, on park tracks, in pebble fields, etc. and the drivetrain never failed under the speed and load. I did upgrade the propeller shaft from plastic to the TT01 aluminum shaft, used ball bearings throughout, and put in a 16T pinion, but that was the extent of the modifications. I really enjoyed having a car i could drive hard almost anywhere and not worry about breaking.

With the SCT system the speed will be less, but the extra torque might be a concern. I might not be able to resist a few (or several) wheelies! I don't know -- I'm going to mount another fresh set of Dirt Hawgs and drive it hard again to see which gear wears down first. I'm really pleased with the durability so far.

-Paul

[TA-Mark 195]

The bigger wheels don't help with the gear ratios. You'd need closer to 12.5:1 to 12.7:1 with the 5700Kv and Dirt Hawg tyres fitted (which the ratios just don't go that far - 11.38:1 with a 16 tooth pinion).

I'd be trying 17 tooth and 18 tooth pinions with the larger than standard tyres fitted. If temperatures are all well below rating then try the 19 tooth. The DF02 layout is very efficient compared to it's 2 sisters (DF01/DF03) so it may not complain at all with the slightly taller ratio.

As a comparison for efficency compare these with the same setup:

All with 27 turn brushed Dirt Tuned.

All using TEU101-BK ESC.

All on Star Dish wheels with Super Gripper spikes.

All geared for 30km/h top speed.

All using the same brand/capacity Ni-Cd 1800mAh pack.

All ball raced.

All weighted to 1750grams ready to run.

The DF01 will do 24 laps of my track on a pack.

The DF02 will do 27 laps of the track.

The DF03 will do 23 laps of the track

The TL01b will do 21 laps of the track.

HPI Cyber 10b (as a point of interest) will do 26 laps.

This same scenario has been played out nearly every weekend for almost 3 years, and always pretty much consistent.

It's about 30 seconds per lap since I added a heap of jumps. (22 seconds a lap before adding the jumps and you could do more laps of course). Makes for nice close racing between me and the kids (and a few visitors). The Castle system cars are simply too much for them, so we run a "beginner" class with the above limits.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

That lap data is excellent. I have all the possible pinions, so I'll give your suggestions a shot.

-Paul

[Theibault 1535]

Let us know how it runs. If possible post a video of the madness.

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I received the Castle Sidewinder SCT 3800 kV system last week and finally had a chance to install it in a DF02...

I didn't have to cut any plastic like I first thought; the length of the motor can wasn't any problem at all.

I decided to go for broke and try a 19T pinion right away to see how hot everything would get with just a basic transmitter calibration and no special settings (default punch control and timing). My reference point was a Sidewinder SV2 5700 kV system from last year; with that system I was using a 16T pinion, maximum punch control, and minimum timing, and the system would get too hot. As TA-Mark pointed out, the gearing for the SV2 system wasn't really right. But I was hoping with 50% more torque this 4-pole motor design would be much more efficient and wouldn't have major heat issues within the gearing constraints of the DF02 chassis.

I ran the car tonight for about 10 minutes in the street at full speed, stopping every few minutes to check the motor and ESC. With ambient temperatures around 65F, both the ESC and motor were barely warm. I did some full speed runs, quick maneuvers, hard braking, 4WD burnouts and it didn't seem to phase the system at all. I think when summer gets here and the ambient temperatures are more around 90F I may want to drop to 18T or 17T, but the system really keeps cool without any fans which is exactly what I wanted. In terms of speed it's probably 80-90% as fast as the SV2 5700 kV system, but all that says is how hard I was overworking the older CM36 2-pole motor last year. It has plenty of speed for street or dirt use and it barely got warm during this test run, so I'm pleased with the purchase and would recommend it for a 4WD buggy. In a sense it's overdesigned for buggies, but that's how I like it.

-Paul

[Otis311 196]

I just received this setup today from Tower and it's speed control has a permanently installed cooling fan. I kind of wish it didn't have the fan but anyway the system is very nice for the price.

Looks good in the DF02, those Dirt Hawgs aren't going to look that pretty for very long

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

Thanks, Otis!

Did you get the Mamba Max Pro SCT system or the Sidewinder SCT system? The pictures show a cooling fan for the Mamba Max ESC, but just passive heatsink fins for the Sidewinder ESC. They both come with the same 1410 motor. My Sidewinder SCT ESC just has the passive fins and they're good enough for a light load like a buggy.

If they're starting to include a cooling fan with the Sidewinder SCT systems, then maybe that's a design change to help with heat in actual short course trucks which are heavier than a buggy. Jang on UltimateRC indicated the Sidewinder ESC got a little warm in his short course truck during the review.

Regardless, it keeps cool and works great in a DF02 without any fans. I think this would make a great default choice for any basher/leisure vehicle that weighs 2 kg or less; just solder on a Dean's plug and you're ready to go...

-Paul

[Theibault 1535]

Thanks, Otis!

Did you get the Mamba Max Pro SCT system or the Sidewinder SCT system? The pictures show a cooling fan for the Mamba Max ESC, but just passive heatsink fins for the Sidewinder ESC. They both come with the same 1410 motor. My Sidewinder SCT ESC just has the passive fins and they're good enough for a light load like a buggy.

If they're starting to include a cooling fan with the Sidewinder SCT systems, then maybe that's a design change to help with heat in actual short course trucks which are heavier than a buggy. Jang on UltimateRC indicated the Sidewinder ESC got a little warm in his short course truck during the review.

Regardless, it keeps cool and works great in a DF02 without any fans. I think this would make a great default choice for any basher/leisure vehicle that weighs 2 kg or less; just solder on a Dean's plug and you're ready to go...

-Paul

The system in my SC104x4 is the Sidewinder ESC. I have found that I can gear my truck to the moon and the motor barely gets warm, so I zip tied the motor fan on the esc. After a 6min main, the esc hits 120-130f and the motor maybe gets to 140. The castle motor will be fine up till the high 160s. Per Castle, I make sure not to exceed 170f. The esc has thermal protection, but I've never gotten it hot enough to have it kick in. I just bought a Mamba Max Pro and I'll be running that with the 1410 motor in my Axial EXO as soon as that arrives. Should be about another week or so. So excited to bash with that buggy. I'll definetly have video on my YouTube channel so keep an eye out for it. Speedy, hope you are enjoying yours as much as I like mine.

[Otis311 196]

Did you get the Mamba Max Pro SCT system or the Sidewinder SCT system?

If they're starting to include a cooling fan with the Sidewinder SCT systems, then maybe that's a design change to help with heat in actual short course trucks which are heavier than a buggy.

Yeah it's a Sidewinder SCT. I guess they noticed most people were putting the motor fan on the esc. The system still included the motor fan too which is cool.