The fastest 2wd vintage buggy?

[Hudson 53]

I'm fairly new back in to this hobby and for now at least I'm finding myself most interested in the old tamiya 2wd buggies. My car as a kid was a Falcon so naturally my first resto was a Falcon, I now have Falcon x 2, Fox x 2, Astute, Super Astute, Bear Hawk and on the hunt for a Dyna Storm, I also have a Sand Viper for bashing duties. I don't think I've decided yet what I enjoy the most between actually driving these buggies, and restoring and tinkering with them in the workshop, I guess in a way that's the beauty of this hobby. I'm gonna list a few observations/questions below and if any of you more experienced guys can offer any answers/opinions that would be great:

My Super Astute is a lovely looking car but I was very underwhelmed by it's performance with a sport tuned motor - this seems strange as it was supposed to be a racing buggy?

My Bear Hawk is absolutely awesome to drive, handles brilliantly (oil shocks) and is quick, again with a sport tuned motor, why is this car so much better than the Super Astute when considering it was an entry level car from the same era?

My Falcon is also quick, handles less well but is great fun, also sport tuned and improved shock set up......

My Fox - have only run this with a standard silver can because I don't want to damage it, but was again underwhelmed by its speed (I remember this car being so fast when I was a kid!)

My Astute is a recent purchase and is strictly a shelfer.

In terms of driveability should I have my eye on any other 2wd buggies from the 1983 - 1993 ish era??

I guess what I'm asking in a round about sort of way is 'which 2wd buggy from the above era with a sport tuned engine is the fastest/best handling/most fun to drive and why?'

[Grastens 2795]

Tamiyas, from what I understand, are not usually about outright speed. In the case of the Super Astute, though: keep in mind that racing buggies also used higher-powered racing motors and upgraded electronics; The Sport-Tuned motor is an upgrade from the standard Mabuchi/Johnson 540, but is not nearly fast enough to keep pace with the competition brushed motors of even that era. It could be that due to this, the Super Astute was never set up properly to make the most of a Sport-Tuned motor (including pinion gear choice), whereas the Bear Hawk, being entry-level, could accept it.

I could be wrong, though, if the kit did include a motor or if the manual specified a Sport-Tuned as a specific hop-up part.

I cannot answer the other question about the fastest vintage 2WD buggy, though I hope that insight could help.

[MadInventor 3884]

I would suggest that the hornet would probably be the fastest buggy in a straight line on a smooth surface. It's light, has an efficient gearbox, and is quite high geared. Of course, if you want something that goes round corners as well, then something a bit more sophisticated would be the order of the day. I haven't owned many of the vintage 2wd cars. After I got a hotshot back in the eighties every I bought after that was either 4wd or a monster truck. I would suspect there are not many vintage 2wd that will compare with your sand viper for performance. If you want a fast vintage 2wd that handles well, look at a Kyosho Ultima

[Gruntfuggly 562]

I'd say the Dyna Storm was the best 2WD Tamiya made - fast, light and a hoot to drive...

[Hudson 53]

Thanks for responses, I kind of suspected that the Super Astute just didn't respond to the 'sport tuned' and needs a different motor to see its potential. I haven't raced them yet but I honestly reckon that my Falcon, Bear Hawk and Sand Viper would be about the same in a straight line (all with sport tuned motor), in handling terms the sand Viper would maybe JUST beat the Bear Hawk with the Falcon a fair bit behind that. Although in terms of pure fun I may just choose the Falcon, I kind of like the unpredictability and also the danger of knowing that one bad crash could mean the end of the front end!!

[kontemax 1725]

I used the Super Astute on track for many time. I started with a 17T Orion motor and the car was slow, then I did switch to14T Orion and it goes better. Then I did switch with a 12T Orion motor and the car was good, with excellent acceleration and very good speed so I understood that Super Astute is a race breed car and wants motors from 12T to less. A 10T should be good. The Sport Tuned is not a motor, is a black can with something rotating inside.

Super Astute handles very very well, it's a real fun to drive it.

Dyna Storm is the top of vintage 2WD buggies from Tamiya. Both cars are a great experience to drive.

Max

[markbt73 5315]

Back in the day, the fastest out-of-the-box straight line buggy was the Hornet. Light weight, high gearing and very low rolling resistance made for a great driveway dragster.

Of course, all you had to do was move the action onto a rougher surface, and every other car would leave you bouncing along in the dust, periodically kicking the car back onto its wheels...

[tozrovr 0]

Really? Colloquial wisdom when I was a kid and racing was that the Fox was the king of 2wd Tamiya's at least until '87-ish. Best of all it could go around corners and had a rear suspension that worked

[94eg! 834]

"Speed" is purely a function of gearing. Especially if you take the motor & battery out of the equation. In my mind it's obviously the car with the most gearing options will not only be the "fastest", but it will also be the quickest around any given track (given proper gear setup).

Your Super Astute stinks with the Sport tuned motor because the kit gearing was meant for high rpm racing Modified motors. This KILLS your top speed with the low rpm sport-tuned. If you ran appropriate gearing, I wager that car would easily be the best of your current bunch. According to page 23 of the manual, gearing options are as follows:

23T (for Dynatech 01R with 9019 19-turn rotor)

22T (for Dynatech 02H with 0513W 13-turn rotor)

21T

20T (for Dynatech 02H with 7010W 10-turn rotor)

19T

18T

As such I suspect a 25T or larger might be suitable for the sport tuned motor, IF it will even fit. Remeber you must use 0.5mod pinions. These are rare as Tamiya only ever used them on the Super Astute, and the DF03 chassis. Buy pinion set 53922 to get the 23T & 25T. The next bigger set is 53923 with 27T & 29T.

As for which "Vintage" car is the fastest/quickest......that all depends on what you consider vintage. Obviously the newest car that is still considered "vintage" will likely perform the best since it's packed with the latest technology & development of the day. Of course some consider the Dyna Storm not to be vintage since it's outside the original 100 Tamiya kits. Personally I feel this is in error as the Dyna Storm is plenty old and remained unchallenged (in the Tamiya linup) as king of the 2WD for about 2 decades until the TRF201 came along.

BTW: "Out of the box" performance does not make for a good comparison IMO. I would consider the chassis potential as a better basis for this discussion. The Hornet lacks any serious potential IMO.

[kontemax 1725]

This is the system I used to resolve the problem of the lack of pinion gears on my Super Astute:

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?id=24&cid=2182&t=08092012215414

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?cid=38250&sid=24

MAx

[Daves956 157]

Back in the day, the fastest out-of-the-box straight line buggy was the Hornet. Light weight, high gearing and very low rolling resistance made for a great driveway dragster.

Of course, all you had to do was move the action onto a rougher surface, and every other car would leave you bouncing along in the dust, periodically kicking the car back onto its wheels...

I'd have to agree on the Hornet. If you like straight line speed and quirky handling then it's hard to beat. My daughter has one with a 20 turn motor in it and the only thing here that could keep up with it was one of the frogs when it had a 550 motor in it. She runs it flat out and seldom rolls it but bounces it off everything and goes through tires like candy. I don't have one right now but the grasshopper with a 540 in it was the same thing, no weight and more power than it knew what to do with.

[HunterZero 76]

With a fast motor, the Hornet is an absolute missile in a straight line - if you can keep it in a straight line. On anything less than billiard table smooth surfaces, it's uncontrollable. Same with the Falcon, the rear end of that car will leave the ground with the slightest bump and cause random changes in direction. Or it will spit out a dogbone, one of the two.

You can bolt a stupidly fast motor into any chassis. If by 'fast' you mean the car chassis can handle a stupidly fast motor, then the Hornet and Falcon would not meet this criteria.

As for the Fox being slow - It is heavier than the Hornet, but not a lot. You do get a choice of pinions, what gearing were you running? In addition the rubber boots on the rear driveshafts can dry out and add quite a lot of drag to the drivetrain. Make sure they are soft and pliable. You can't really run the car without those boots as the hex driveshafts need to be packed with grease and the boots are essential to keep grit out. The Fox does have slow steering and lacks lock thanks to the overcomplicated steering setup, which can make the car as a whole feel a bit unresponsive to drive.

The Madcap has been overlooked in this thread, it's basically an entry level Astute that only has friction dampers but strangely keeps the problematic ball diff. The gearbox is very quiet and efficient. Many racers used the simpler suspension parts from the Mad Cap to 'downgrade' their Astutes to improve reliability.

The Dyna Stoarm may not be in the 'first 100' vintage club, but it's still vintage Tamiya, and is hugely fast with the right motor.

- James

[tozrovr 0]

BTW: "Out of the box" performance does not make for a good comparison IMO. I would consider the chassis potential as a better basis for this discussion. The Hornet lacks any serious potential IMO.

In a purely analytic manner, you're correct. Historically, you might be off a bit.

For a HUUUUUUGE demographic, out of the box performance is all there was way back in the 80's. In '85 and '86 the aftermarket wasn't as diverse or nearly as accessible as it was even in the 90's (much less so than now with the Internet). As a 11-12 year old kid the resources just weren't there for so many and your RC car usually stayed stock until it broke, and then it was repaired with whatever the local shop had in stock.

When we bought out cars, we wanted to know how it stacked up stock, because that is how it would likely stay for a long, long time. The same relationship can be seen even now with folks and performance cars. A fella buys the WRX version of the Impreza and it stays bone stock because the cash to modify it, or the know how, just don't exist.

Of course while my Blackfoot stayed mostly stock for it's life back in the day, my WRX is a real monster

[Daves956 157]

In a purely analytic manner, you're correct. Historically, you might be off a bit.

For a HUUUUUUGE demographic, out of the box performance is all there was way back in the 80's. In '85 and '86 the aftermarket wasn't as diverse or nearly as accessible as it was even in the 90's (much less so than now with the Internet). As a 11-12 year old kid the resources just weren't there for so many and your RC car usually stayed stock until it broke, and then it was repaired with whatever the local shop had in stock.

When we bought out cars, we wanted to know how it stacked up stock, because that is how it would likely stay for a long, long time. The same relationship can be seen even now with folks and performance cars. A fella buys the WRX version of the Impreza and it stays bone stock because the cash to modify it, or the know how, just don't exist.

Of course while my Blackfoot stayed mostly stock for it's life back in the day, my WRX is a real monster

That's exactly why I mentioned the grasshopper. 540 motors including the blacks were easy to get and it turned the cheapest model into a barn burner. I had several of them and it was hard to go wrong. The suspension wasn't great, like the hornet, but if speed was the goal you leaned to live with them. I remember paying 45 dollars for my first grasshopper and something like 10 for a black motor. You also have to remember that everything was on MSCs and no suspension could make up for the lack of speed control.

[pizzachaude 130]

Add my vote for the Kyosho Ultima, awesome car and very reliable

[tozrovr 0]

Add my vote for the Kyosho Ultima, awesome car and very reliable

Things go a bit sideways when you factor in the Ultima's and the RC10's

Speaking of Ultima's....

HEH HEH...sitting in my Vault-o-fun

[pizzachaude 130]

LOL! Very nice indeed! Here's mine. Left is restored shelf queen, but it's got 90% all new parts, the one on the right is runner. It was my first ever real RC car and I loved it. I obviously love Tamiyas, but in the 80s they just weren't very competitive against Kyoshos, Losi and Associated. This is my opinion of course and some of you will disagree with me for sure. And plus one for the Hornet, very fast indeed as long as all is flat.

[mongoose1983 3335]

I haven't seen all of the older Tamiya 2wd buggies running, but I have great memories of the Astute. Probably the fastest electric buggy I have ever seen.

[94eg! 834]

In a purely analytic manner, you're correct. Historically, you might be off a bit.

For a HUUUUUUGE demographic, out of the box performance is all there was way back in the 80's. In '85 and '86 the aftermarket wasn't as diverse or nearly as accessible as it was even in the 90's (much less so than now with the Internet). As a 11-12 year old kid the resources just weren't there for so many and your RC car usually stayed stock until it broke, and then it was repaired with whatever the local shop had in stock.

When we bought out cars, we wanted to know how it stacked up stock, because that is how it would likely stay for a long, long time. The same relationship can be seen even now with folks and performance cars. A fella buys the WRX version of the Impreza and it stays bone stock because the cash to modify it, or the know how, just don't exist.

Of course while my Blackfoot stayed mostly stock for it's life back in the day, my WRX is a real monster

It's jut not realistic to compare a box-stock hornet to a box-stock super astute that doesn't even include a motor and speed control.

[tozrovr 0]

It's jut not realistic to compare a box-stock hornet to a box-stock super astute that doesn't even include a motor and speed control.

You're right, but that's why I popped some dates into my crazy point of view Everything we raced back in the mid-late 80's came with a motor/ESC.

[Percymon 2184]

As it stands today, the motor choice means you can probably fit something thats way beyond the drivers skill (professionals aside)

[Sayer 742]

This is the system I used to resolve the problem of the lack of pinion gears on my Super Astute:

http://www.tamiyaclu...=08092012215414

http://www.tamiyaclu...id=38250&sid=24

MAx

I don't care what you say, that paint job is spectacular.

[isthisnametaken 8]

Things go a bit sideways when you factor in the Ultima's and the RC10's

Speaking of Ultima's....

HEH HEH...sitting in my Vault-o-fun

Can I have that?

[Hudson 53]

Ok so what current affordable motor could I put into my Super Astute to make it as fast as my Bear Hawk and Falcon are with a sport tuned? And what pinion?

Can anyone help?

[Grastens 2795]

I think you should be able to fit a mild brushless setup; those by Hobbywing are usually affordable; if not there are still some decent brushed motors, none of which I can name off the top of my head as this car needs a fairly-powerful motor.

Pinions would be someone else's opinion! However, the kit gearing for a higher-speed motor should suffice and you should notice a difference in performance right away. Gearing would be harder to change anyways since the car runs 0.5 module gears instead of Tamiya's more-common 0.6 module.