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Mods removing showroom entries prematurely?

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Hi TC,

I'd like to talk about something I've had happening several times now... Having a showroom entry removed by a moderator. Apparently my last showroom entry was found to be promotion material for the fact that it is for sale. Instead of censoring the part of the description that mentions this, the whole showroom entry is removed - and as probably other people know, once an entry is removed there is no way to get back the text you wrote.

I'm getting quite sick of having to re-type the descriptions and picture notes/captions just because a mod decides to remove the whole showroom entry instead of a simple small edit or notification about the problem! <_< All it needs is a small edit that would otherwise have been sufficient to make the entry comply to the mods' scrutineering (So please note, I'm not trying to discuss anything about the content I've written, even though the mods and I have our differences on this sometimes - this is all about how these problems are handles/dealt with).

Does anyone recognize this, and towards the mods, is there any way we users can receive the info we put on our removed showroom entry, or have it temporarily removed from the website until the edits have been made and the revised entry has been accepted by a mod? :huh:

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Hi TC,

I'd like to talk about something I've had happening several times now... Having a showroom entry removed by a moderator. Apparently my last showroom entry was found to be promotion material for the fact that it is for sale. Instead of censoring the part of the description that mentions this, the whole showroom entry is removed - and as probably other people know, once an entry is removed there is no way to get back the text you wrote.

I'm getting quite sick of having to re-type the descriptions and picture notes/captions just because a mod decides to remove the whole showroom entry instead of a simple small edit or notification about the problem! <_< All it needs is a small edit that would otherwise have been sufficient to make the entry comply to the mods' scrutineering (So please note, I'm not trying to discuss anything about the content I've written, even though the mods and I have our differences on this sometimes - this is all about how these problems are handles/dealt with).

Does anyone recognize this, and towards the mods, is there any way we users can receive the info we put on our removed showroom entry, or have it temporarily removed from the website until the edits have been made and the revised entry has been accepted by a mod? :huh:

The simple solution is don't add trade ads to the showrooms, then they don't get deleted.

You don't want to re-write a description because you decided to advertise in the showrooms, but you are ok for someone to edit it and inform you of the issue?

We get more complaints about trade ads in showrooms than practically any other single 'offence'

There is also a check-box marked "Is this item for sale/trade?" - tick that in future and they won't get deleted - they also won't show up on the homepage.

Whenever a trade ad appears on the homepage along with a showroom entry one is, and always has been, deleted - this is viewed as manipulation of the site for your own purposes and not permitted.

Simply put, trade ads belong in the traderoom section - anywhere else and they get deleted

If you're at all unsure about whether a showroom entry will be deleted because it could be considered a trade ad, your best bet is to save the description to a word file or similar, then you can copy/edit/paste it to the new entry

To help you decide if a showroom entry might be deleted, the following will pretty much guarantee it;

  • Using phrases such as 'now for sale' and 'check my traderoom' in new showroom entries
  • Adding a showroom entry and a traderoom entry almost simultaneously
  • Combining the two above

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The simple solution is don't add trade ads to the showrooms, then they don't get deleted.

You don't want to re-write a description because you decided to advertise in the showrooms, but you are ok for someone to edit it and inform you of the issue?

We get more complaints about trade ads in showrooms than practically any other single 'offence'

There is also a check-box marked "Is this item for sale/trade?" - tick that in future and they won't get deleted - they also won't show up on the homepage.

Whenever a trade ad appears on the homepage along with a showroom entry one is, and always has been, deleted - this is viewed as manipulation of the site for your own purposes and not permitted.

Simply put, trade ads belong in the traderoom section - anywhere else and they get deleted

If you're at all unsure about whether a showroom entry will be deleted because it could be considered a trade ad, your best bet is to save the description to a word file or similar, then you can copy/edit/paste it to the new entry

To help you decide if a showroom entry might be deleted, the following will pretty much guarantee it;

  • Using phrases such as 'now for sale' and 'check my traderoom' in new showroom entries
  • Adding a showroom entry and a traderoom entry almost simultaneously
  • Combining the two above

Perhaps I haven't made it clear enough what issue I'm trying to talk about here. It is NOT about the content, it is about how the entries are handled.

If a showroom entry is removed - in this case by a mod - the user loses all data he has put into it - that is what's bugging me! I could have edited the entry in less than a minute if I was just notified. Now it means the website needs extra bandwidth to upload the pictures (not my problem, but it might save TamiyaClub some used bandwidth here and there), lost time by the user, and not to mention the care he might put into making the showroom entry - all because showroom entries can't be temporarily blocked or aren't available through the direct link like for example the removed trade ads.

The fact that it was seen as an ad... Apparently it's been too long ago I read the rules (it is not my intention to make things look like an ad), but again, this is NOT what the topic is about.

So Twinset, is there any way that it might be possible for removed showroom entries to be available through their direct link (like the traderoom ads)? It would really improve the experience of using the website, and prevent friction between mods and users or frustration at the user-side. Using the note-pad is an option, but I find it kind of odd as the traderoom system works differently (better?)

Edit: I just tried to find the rules to read through them again, and I can't find them. So could you please tell me the link so I can thoroughly read through the rules?

Also, why is it that my showroom entry is online but not listed on the front page or the list of new showroom entries?

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Perhaps I haven't made it clear enough what issue I'm trying to talk about here. It is NOT about the content, it is about how the entries are handled.

So Twinset, is there any way that it might be possible for removed showroom entries to be available through their direct link (like the traderoom ads)? It would really improve the experience of using the website, and prevent friction between mods and users or frustration at the user-side. Using the note-pad is an option, but I find it kind of odd as the traderoom system works differently (better?)

No

That would involve re-programming or changing the way TC works in order to save a few minutes for people that try to manipulate the site.

The traderooms work differently so that there is a record of what's been bought/sold in case either party have a problem.

The fact that it was seen as an ad... Apparently it's been too long ago I read the rules (it is not my intention to make things look like an ad), but again, this is NOT what the topic is about.

When a showroom entry mentions price and looking at traderooms for further info, that's not "looking" like a trade ad, that's a trade ad.

Your showroom entry was a straightfoward extension of your traderoom ad, please stop trying to suggest otherwise - the entry was not deleted because "it was seen as an ad" it was deleted because it was an ad.

There is no rule written down about this as each subscriber has a showroom and a traderoom - they also have the option to tick the "Is this item for sale/trade?" checkbox too, something else you chose to ignore with your first entry - a checkbox you managed to miss even though you ticked several others.

Also, why is it that my showroom entry is online but not listed on the front page or the list of new showroom entries?

Because the "Is this item for sale/trade?" checkbox has been ticked

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I had a showroom entry zzapped once and threw a middle-aged strop until I realised what the rules were and then got over it.

Mine was an accident. I didn't mean it as a promotion and I think that's the same for a few others as well as they type in the description.

I think having the whole entry zzapped is a good lesson in helping you remember not to do it again.

J

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zzapped - like it; up until now I been shouting 'BOOOOM' when I delete them but it upsets the missus

Thanks for the post John

Accidental-entry deletions are regrettable as they're not accompanied by a trade ad, so you don't even have the 'other' entry to save you the hassle of re-typing.

Unfortunately, mods can't differentiate between genuine accidental entries and deliberate ones, so the outcome is always the same.

If they were left online whilst we contacted the poster those entries then get used as reasons for someone else doing the same thing (and have been in the past), so we can't win either way :(

Like you say though, you only do it the once :D

---------------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line for those left in any doubt is that when a trade ad and showroom entry appear at the same time, then the showroom entry should have the "Is this item for sale/trade?" checkbox ticked - that way the showroom entry cannot be considered as an 'extra' trade ad - it's amazing how many people decide to coincidentally add showroom and traderoom entries simultaneously but for no apparent reason :blink:

That checkbox's sole purpose is to keep trade items out of the showroom section, thus stopping people using the showrooms as traderooms.

When a trade ad does appear in the showrooms, it will be deleted.

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So Twinset, from what I understand, one effort in re-programming doesn't weigh up to the tens of showroom entries added every day - by member who pay for the service? Also, it's not just people who make showroom entries that are not complying to the rules - it can be useful for many purposes to archive a showroom entry before permanently removing it.

Also, are you assuming I'm trying to manipulate the website? I am not trying to manipulate the website. I don't appreciate it that my opinion is swept away as being untrue in your second reply - it is my opinion and I have the right to have that, even if that means you have a different opinion and decide to remove it because you have the responsibility in your hands to remove entries that you see as not complying with the rules.

Without written rules open for every user to look into and easy to find it is hard to actually follow the rules - To make a comparison, imagine what would happen if the constitution was written in invisible ink... Even if people have the best intentions, they will sooner or later breach it.

Also, if I don't know what a button or box actually does (for example the 'is this item for sale/trade?') and there is no description to find out what it does, then I as a user am not inclined to use it. That it results in having an entry not comply to the rules is something I cannot see beforehand when I see just that box unfortunately, otherwise yes, I would have ticked it, or waited with posting my showroom entry.

So again I'm asking, could you please adress this Twinset, or have a Poll and topic with suggestions and opinions about things like this? Please remember this website can't be built on the view of just the creator: This applies to the any sort of product or service: If it doesn't match the group of people you're targetting, then there will be friction. So will you please gauge whether there is interest for changes like these or not?

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So Twinset, from what I understand, one effort in re-programming doesn't weigh up to the tens of showroom entries added every day - by member who pay for the service? Also, it's not just people who make showroom entries that are not complying to the rules - it can be useful for many purposes to archive a showroom entry before permanently removing it.

Tens of showroom entries every day don't place trade ads in the showrooms - one every now and then does.

Showroom deletion by users was made more 'complicated' to prevent accidental deletion.

There are many tools outside of Tamiyaclub to save/archive webpages, should a person deliberately deleting their own content wish to make use of them.

Personally, I also don't see the need to archive text when the text was the reason the entry was deleted; your showroom entry was deleted because you typed "insert showroom/trade ad here" here's what you typed, please don't reuse it

Also, are you assuming I'm trying to manipulate the website?

Yes, 100% that is my assumption and opinion - heard it all before and it sounds an awful lot like this.

I don't appreciate it that my opinion is swept away as being untrue in your second reply - it is my opinion and I have the right to have that, even if that means you have a different opinion and decide to remove it because you have the responsibility in your hands to remove entries that you see as not complying with the rules.

You're fully aware of my opinion by now, please take it further with Netsmith/Chris if you don't like it.

Mods have the joyous task of deciding what goes and what stays, if you think we're/I'm in the wrong then by all means take it up with him.

I am not trying to manipulate the website

But you placed two trade ads on Tamiyaclub, one in the traderoom and one in the showroom, and yet you don't do it for all your trade ads

It would appear there was something special about this trade that warranted 'extra' attention of members here so you placed it twice - once in the standard trading area and once in an area which doesn't have drop-down boxes for pricing, currency etc.

That's considered manipulating the site, whether by total accident or not.

You and I have already discussed trading boundaries on the forums, why do you think the mainsite would be subject to any different boundaries?

Without written rules open for every user to look into and easy to find it is hard to actually follow the rules - To make a comparison, imagine what would happen if the constitution was written in invisible ink... Even if people have the best intentions, they will sooner or later breach it.

There is a trade area for trades, why does a rule need to be written saying trades go in the traderoom?

Most people have grasped the situation without it being written down.

If you need it clarifying, please read the relevant sections of the subscription page which I assume you read before subscribing;

add.gif a showroom, to show off your RC collection, all organised by model and category, with the facility to allow people to comment on your models (all under your complete editorial control). You will also be able to leave comments on other people models, who may have listed them as 'member comments only'

add.gif a trading area, in which to sell, trade or ask for parts and models. You will have the option to either restict trading to fellow members, assuring confidence in dealing with more serious collectors, or you can open the trade to any one of our 5000+ visitors a day. Likewise you will get to see other subscribers trade items when they are listed as 'members only'

Please note the showroom entry does not mention throwing in the odd trade when it seems like a good idea.

Also, if I don't know what a button or box actually does (for example the 'is this item for sale/trade?') and there is no description to find out what it does, then I as a user am not inclined to use it. That it results in having an entry not comply to the rules is something I cannot see beforehand when I see just that box unfortunately, otherwise yes, I would have ticked it, or waited with posting my showroom entry.

The button is asking that you reply to a question; "Is this item for sale/trade?" it has a checkbox next to it.

Checkboxes usually require checking if the answer is positive (unless it requires a negative check, but that's generally explained next to the button)

As far as I'm aware, none of the buttons on TC tell you what they do but on your FWD entry you ticked loads of them;

tiicked.jpg

As far as I know, not one of those checkboxes has ever been discussed in any detail anywhere, yet you were happy to tick 6 of them, all in the same entry?

And yet you avoided the one marked "Is this item for sale/trade?" even though the entry contained clear indicators that the item was indeed for sale and was almost immediately added to your traderoom?

You even (originally) had a link to the showroom entry in your trade ad, one that was swapped for a photohosting site once the showroom entry was deleted.

So again I'm asking, could you please adress this Twinset, or have a Poll and topic with suggestions and opinions about things like this? Please remember this website can't be built on the view of just the creator: This applies to the any sort of product or service: If it doesn't match the group of people you're targetting, then there will be friction. So will you please gauge whether there is interest for changes like these or not?

No. I'm not going to ask 'the forum' as a lot of mainsite users don't use the forums and there's no way to restrict a poll to 'relevant' voters ie; those that have access to the showrooms/traderooms.

If you want Tamiyaclub changed, you need to speak to Chris - he is the creator, and only he can change it.

If he decides archiving showroom entries for members that have entries deleted by a moderator is worthwhile, I'm sure it will be sorted.

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You're still accusing me of wanting to manipulate the website - it is not what I wanted to adress yet you are making this your main point in the discussion. And yes, I do reply to it, because I think it's not right from you to judge my intentions - you should only judge what you actually see written down, and that was (now I know) against the rules.

As for the other buttons I've ticked, they're a little more obvious on what they do - they are searching filters about and within the showroom, whereas the other one has an effect on just the showroom entry and is about things related to the traderoom - it's not mentioned and to me, unclear. Whether it's clear to you is an indicator, but as you are not all the users using the website it may not be clear to everyone.

All I was trying to do here is adress the fact that I think there is support and information missing to help members follow the rules better. You could have mentioned in your first reply that I should contact Chris about it, it would have saved us a lot of discussion about stuff that I already said in my first post it didn't want to discuss (making half of the content of all the replies off-topic). Thanks though for letting me know though where I can leave my suggestions.

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You're still accusing me of wanting to manipulate the website - it is not what I wanted to adress yet you are making this your main point in the discussion.

That would be because no-one in 10 years has ever posted up "nothing was deleted from my showroom, but can all entries please be archived anyway"

Your requirement has only come about because you had a showroom entry deleted by a moderator - the two are kind of linked.

And yes, I do reply to it, because I think it's not right from you to judge my intentions - you should only judge what you actually see written down, and that was (now I know) against the rules.

I am not judging your intentions, I am applying the same moderation to your situation as gets applied to every other one I have seen.

Whether your intention was to manipulate the site or not is irrelevant to me - you placed a trade ad outside of the trade area, I deleted it - that decision was based totally on what I actually saw "written down"

I don't care what your intentions were, I don't have to.

All I have to do is decide whether a showroom entry gets deleted or not - it's pretty black and white for me.

If I'm ever not sure, I run it by Chris, yours I was 100% sure of.

As for the other buttons I've ticked, they're a little more obvious on what they do - they are searching filters about and within the showroom, whereas the other one has an effect on just the showroom entry and is about things related to the traderoom - it's not mentioned and to me, unclear. Whether it's clear to you is an indicator, but as you are not all the users using the website it may not be clear to everyone.

I fail to see how some buttons' functions are more obvious than others when none are labelled.

When one is clearly marked "Is this item for sale/trade?" and you choose not to tick it, even though the item is clearly for sale, but are totally happy to tick countless other boxes throughout your showroom history without any prior explanation as to what they do, I have to assume you know exactly what it does and choose to avoid using it, especially when the original entry was unmistakably a trade ad.

All I was trying to do here is adress the fact that I think there is support and information missing to help members follow the rules better. You could have mentioned in your first reply that I should contact Chris about it, it would have saved us a lot of discussion about stuff that I already said in my first post it didn't want to discuss (making half of the content of all the replies off-topic). Thanks though for letting me know though where I can leave my suggestions.

There is no information missing - you have a traderoom, titled as such because that's where trades go - do you really need an explanation of traderoom to be written down in order to understand it's use?

If a traderoom did not exist, one could understand your confusion, but the fact Tamiyaclub supplies an area for trading, titled it as Traderoom and put various dropdown boxes for pricing, trade type etc. should be enough for most people.

I don't ever recall anyone ever contacting me ever, at all to ask whether trades should go in their traderoom.

If any support or explanation about how the main site works is needed, people only have to ask - it saves a lot of writing after the event.

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Frustrating as it is Origineelreclamebord, even a well constructed and polite argument won't make a difference here on TC, your options are to accept or move on because there's an overwhelming dogmatism amongst the mods and admins here.

This is not a democracy, you're a guest and have no rights. This is a sad truth here and the single reason I refuse to subscribe as a member.

Your request was perfectly valid and it's not unreasonable for such entries to be "archived" instead of "deleted" to give responsible contributors the opportunity to correct what in most cases would be an honest mistake.

And to the people that actually complain about these things, if this is true:

We get more complaints about trade ads in showrooms than practically any other single 'offence'

Then get a life! You must have something better to do. Perhaps we need a transparency report for TC?

I don't envy TWINSET's role here and for the most part things are kept in order but his single-minded lack of empathy disqualifies him from this job I feel (not that anybody would step up to replace him I'm afraid). The pattern in this tread it identical to so many others, it's embarrassing to observe.

Walk away from the discussion, you'll be better off for it... but then again - "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing" - so you have my support (which I suspect doesn't surprise TWINSET... ;)).

Good luck.

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I'm sorry but that's not the case

So far, the ebay rule has been relaxed because I argued for it to be so that members could help others more effectively than using cryptic search suggestions

The showroom deletion button had an 'are you sure' cycle added just so that subscriber's couldn't accidentally delete their own showrooms whilst viewing them.

I have asked Chris just last week to see if there's still any reason not to allow title changes to threads any more after Kontemax started another thread about it - I have never been against title changes, but I have to get forum changes approved by Chris first

What I don't see as critical though, is changing the site for a very small minority who decide one traderoom entry isn't enough for them.

As I posted earlier, what purpose is served by archiving text which can't be re-used?

Showroom entries aren't deleted for giggles, only when something is wrong - if it's the text (and in trade/showroom cases it always is) then it's of no use whether it's archived or not.

Members that deliberately delete their own entries have the option to archive their entries first if they want to, using Word, Notepad, screenshot plugins etc.

Accidental deleting is no longer an issue, so there's no need to allow for that.

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Why not type the text into a notepad text file first and save it to your own computer, then copy the text into the showroom entry field once you've got the formatting and text the way you want it. I've been doing it like this on nearly all websites. Firstly because some websites log you out before you have time to type all what you need to say, and secondly, so that I have a clear record of what I've put online. Each of my showroom entries is backed up on my own computer, the pictures and the text.

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Frustrating as it is Origineelreclamebord, even a well constructed and polite argument won't make a difference here on TC, your options are to accept or move on because there's an overwhelming dogmatism amongst the mods and admins here.

This is not a democracy, you're a guest and have no rights. This is a sad truth here and the single reason I refuse to subscribe as a member.

Your request was perfectly valid and it's not unreasonable for such entries to be "archived" instead of "deleted" to give responsible contributors the opportunity to correct what in most cases would be an honest mistake.

And to the people that actually complain about these things, if this is true:

We get more complaints about trade ads in showrooms than practically any other single 'offence'

Then get a life! You must have something better to do. Perhaps we need a transparency report for TC?

I don't envy TWINSET's role here and for the most part things are kept in order but his single-minded lack of empathy disqualifies him from this job I feel (not that anybody would step up to replace him I'm afraid). The pattern in this tread it identical to so many others, it's embarrassing to observe.

Walk away from the discussion, you'll be better off for it... but then again - "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing" - so you have my support (which I suspect doesn't surprise TWINSET... ;)).

Good luck.

I've seen it happen with others, so I had a clue that was the case... It's pretty sad to see it confirmed on your own situation.

So Twinset, coming back on the quote djmcnz posted, if the most of the complaints are about trade ads in showrooms, perhaps that has a reason - and then I'm not aiming at the reason of intentions. Perhaps it's a clue that there are more people not aware of the showroom-traderoom rule you apply?

It's the last thing I will say about it... For reasons I'll not post here as they will probably breach rules that are not written in the topic where they should be.

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So Twinset, coming back on the quote djmcnz posted, if the most of the complaints are about trade ads in showrooms, perhaps that has a reason - and then I'm not aiming at the reason of intentions. Perhaps it's a clue that there are more people not aware of the showroom-traderoom rule you apply?

To give you an idea of the numbers involved, and not have you believe millions of people a day have the same issue, there are maybe 4 or 5 reports, a month, about showroom content.

Of those 4 or 5, 2 or 3 will be trade ads in the showrooms.

Of those 2 or 3, I can only think of one person that has repeated the issue more than once.

Therefore, you are requesting Tamiyaclub archives every showroom entry to save a bit of work for, at worst, 2 or 3 people a month.

Having placed trade ads over the years in the correct area, you obviously don't have any trouble working out where trades normally go, so this 'exception' was considered deliberate as you posted an accompanying trade ad too.

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