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Origineelreclamebord

Tire advice for 4WD Touring Car

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Hi everyone,

Tonight I just got me a second hand TRF417! I've been thinking for a long time how I can get myself a good amount of training in the winter or even in the summer in between races, and even though I drive 2WD offroad, a sensitive car like the TRF417 should be good to train with on one of the many empty sheets of tarmac in the city!

However, there are two things I have to figure out to make my training car a successful one. One is to prevent belt and pulley damage due to debry and sand. The other I need some advice about, as looking back on it, my previous tourers seemed to have handling trouble due to it... BAD TIRES! I was always using the cheap-o RTR/XB/Kit tires, and it seems they just can't handle putting 4000kV-ish power on the ground. However, I know nothing about the brands available for touring cars, I hope you can help out here.

So, what I'm looking for is a tire that has more grip. However, it also needs to be a type of tire that doesn't cost me a fortune in the long run. In other words, a good concession between grip, durability and price. So, what are you people recommend using? :)

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Hpi x patterns or 4435 slicks if they are still available! Or sorex's

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I will agree on the Sorex tires. The racers at my local club use their Type C compound; it does depend on the surface being run on but these were the most common tires at the track.

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Hi Origineel -

First a few questions:

- If you're planning on running on outdoor parking lot tarmac, how cold will it be outside?

- What is the surface material, and what condition is it in?

- Do you intend to prep the surface at all?

- Are you going to experiment with any traction compounds and/or tire warmers?

- Just curious, how does driving a 4WD onroad car help you train for driving a 2WD offroad buggy?

The tire is half the equation for grip; the surface is the other half.

Sweep and Sorex are two tire brands you'll see used at tracks regularly. I use HPI X patterns just for fooling around in the street, but that's not a race situation obviously. I guess it depends if you're just fooling around or trying to eke out max performance. There are quite a few parameters to pay attention to for best tire selection.

Here's an article that will step you through it a little more deeply; the information is a little dated but the ideas are there:

http://www.nitrorc.com/articles/tires/tirepart1.html

Sweep tire compound guide:

http://manuals.hobbico.com/mmr/sweeptire-manual.pdf

HPI tire/insert guide:

http://www.hpiracing.com/tires/touringcar.php

That TRF417 is a really nice chassis; are the edges of the graphite shaped and sealed in any way? It would be a shame to chip and scuff that chassis on parking lot debris. Team CRC has a nice tech article on chassis preparation (although I hear if CA glue cures funny it can introduce chassis tweak; sometimes fingernail polish is used instead):

http://www.teamcrc.com/crc/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=16&mode=&order=0&thold=0

-Paul

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Thanks for the replies guys :) I haven't got the car yet but a used set of Sorex' is included so I can immediately give those a try.

@speedy_w_beans:

Thanks for the questions and the advice+links. I was thinking if there would be more to it than 'just' picking a tire, so good to know there indeed is (no wonder really looking back on it).

Anyway, to answer your questions:

Why onroad, 4WD and touring car? The thing is, currently I don't really touch my transmitter between racing events. This means using the transmitter is not like second nature at the start of each event. And if I wait even longer, my driving skills even become rusty. Because I live in the city, by far the easiest choice for me is to run onroad (Plus to be honest, I'm pretty curious to run a touring car again after a few years). I could go for a 2WD, but choice is limited for cars that have the suspension travel of a touring car (pan cars I think won't cut it on parking lots).

The reason for a TRF? Well, a TRF - with it's open belt and diff structure - is not what first popped up in my mind either, but you can't deny it has an appeal to it. I have never properly driven a belt driven car, it's been a few years since my last touring car, and then a second hand TRF417 popped up... It has already seen outdoor use by the previous owner, so there's not a pristine chassis plate at the bottom of the car to worry about. That's where the decision came from - A part was what I was looking for - and the other part came across my path! :P I'll have a good look at the debry on the surface and probably test drive the car with temporary covers to find out with a couple of runs if this really is what I'm looking for. If it is, then I'll make 3D printed covers for the spur gear and rear pulley, perhaps also the front one.

By now it might be more clear that I am looking to train my skills with the car and squeeze some performance out of it, but without stretching performance with very soft tires, tire additives, tire warmers or altering/preparing the running surface (because many of these things are not allowed in offroad racing or things I cannot afford).

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Thanks for the thoughts. When I read your first post I was thinking about the huge difference between driving 2WD buggy vs. 4WD touring and how that might affect your buggy driving, especially if the end goal is keeping buggy skills sharp. A RM-01, F104, Group C, M06, or even putting hard, bald tires on your buggy and driving on asphalt all came to mind to simulate traction conditions on dirt. A touring car just didn't seem like a natural practice/training car since its behavior is so different from an offroad buggy.

-Paul

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Hehe I see what you mean :) I used to drive my Dyna Storm onroad every once in a while but didn't find it satisfying: It was fun for a while, but I couldn't get the handling tweaked the way I wanted it.

Plus, driving skill is not just being able to know your way with one type of car, but more of them. The reactional skills, feeling what the car is doing and where it's limits are... They apply universally. The biggest differences will be when the limits of the car kick in, how fine that line is, and the lack of jumps with any onroad car :lol:

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A TRF will be decent fun in a parking lot if you have a couple friends & some decent/smooth asphalt. What we did was bring a broom to sweep off a large area of of a nearby parking lot. Then we used some chalk to draw out a decent size track. Then we set forth going nuts driving around the track together all at the same time. After that gets old, you can take a break to re-charge/swap-packs/cool-down/etc... Now grab your stop-watch cause it's time for the time-attack challenge. Each driver takes turns going b@!!$ out to see who can post the fastest times without going 4-wheels off the track. It's really good fun and a great way to kill an afternoon with friends.

Just keep in mind that running a TRF on a dusty chalk-outlined parking lot is in NO way similar to running on a prepped track with traction compounds.

BTW: Almost all of us ran carbon chassis belt cars and we never had any trouble with belts. Other car was a TRF EVO shaft drive with open spur and still no problems. Only one guy ever stripped a 64p spur gear when he picked up a large copper staple from below. But he always has terrible luck. :D

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BTW: For tires, get a colder compound if your running on un-prepped pavment. This will help grip. RP30's always worked well when messing around with friends. Though I think Sorex became the hot ticket after the RP's changed formula. Sorex were nice cause there used to be a couple different pre-mounts available, but not any more I don't think. Pick from either the 32R (81-96*F) or 28R (72-84*F). The temps are supposed to be the surface of the asphalt.

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That sounds like a lot of fun 94eg! :D Unfortunately I don't have any friends (nearby) with RC cars, perhaps I should start looking for people in my city through communities so perhaps we can drive together.

I drove on the parking lot today (with my Dyna Storm). The surface of the parking lot has some split/small stones on it, but not a lot I think. There are some twigs and stuff on there right now, but I think that'll only be the side I usually drive on (which is close to a few trees). I'll have to check. Like I mentioned earlier, there is another, larger parking lot nearby. From what I can see on Google Maps it's dusty and concrete, but I'll have a look there anyway. With such a big parking lot there should be a good spot/corner to run, right? :P

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Muchmore, Rides or sorex

like some of the other questions raised here temp is a factor to what compound you would use. Also what motor are you using

running a 4.4 t mod will wear tyres quick than using a 21.5t motor, so a lot of factors you need to take into consideration before purchasing tyres.

if it is only for parking lot racing and warm weather use 36's good grip once they get some temp and will give you some life so you are not purchasing tyres reguarly

cold = 28's

mild-warm = 32's

hot = 36's

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Hey guys, today I tested my car for the first time - FINALLY! What an odd drive, it's nothing like I remember from the last time I drove a tourer! This drives quite well with the setup that I bought it with (I only raised the ride height slightly for the first test to minimize potential problems with small stones): it's power delivery is very smooth (I guess it's the belts) - but not soft or tame by any means :lol: Unlike I expected it is possible (and in fact pretty easy) to drive over the tires' limit, making it slide around. The car stays relatively predictable though, which is nice (it's not like you spin out or the car becomes completely uncontrollable).

So all in all? Good fun, I will get a shell ready for this car :) I will have to make some protection for the pulleys, spur and pinion that's better than a bit of tape and a few sheets of paper though :lol: It is what cut off my driving session (there is a sand particle in the spur because it started clicking).

And one more thing: Mounting that battery with tape - that's not practical for bashing. I have a TRF(501?) mount bag here and I noticed there are holes in the carbon battery 'hooks' - the height matches nicely, so I'll be making a 'standard' battery mounting solution for it since that bit of CoG is not as crucial for me as it is for guys on the track.

Edit:

I have two potential bodies for this car: A Subaru '07 shell (NIP) or a '99 German Rally Champ Subaru shell (painted badly by previous owner so suitable for a runner shell - with some weathering the paintjob problems shouldn't be that visible).

The 07 I can make the right holes for the original body posts, for the German Rally one I could use the existing holes but I need to make some customizations to position a set of body posts correctly for the body - also, I will put some velcro on the front bumper so the front end doesn't flex too much and hits the ground all the time. What should I do? :unsure:

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You were drving it w/o a body? You fill find your level of grip comes up tremendously once you get a body on. Be aware it truly is best/ideal with real racing bodies. Scale bodies offer very little grip. Especially with "scale" rear wings like that found on Tamiya kits.

Protoform offers lots of body options for electric (190mm) rubber tire cars to suit pretty much any driving style: http://racepf.com/touring-car-190mm/

Mazda 6 (slight rear bias downforce)

Mazdaspeed 6 (most balanced downforce)

LTC-R (slightly front bias downforce)

R9R (heavy front bias downforce)

I don't know where the P37-R body falls into the line. By the shape I would say between the LTC & R9 bodies. These days what is considered "balanced" may have changed cause it looks like the Mazda 6 body is discontinued. I imagine the Speed 6 body is the now the most docile.

777.jpg

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Hehe, thanks for the advice :) I drove it without a body because I wasn't going to invest in (or cut up and drill into) a body for a car of which I didn't know if it suited me. So now I know I can put a body on. Since I don't have a purpose built racing body but I do have other bodies - I know it's not the best choice performance-wise :P

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I'm with 94eg! on this. If you bought a TRF417 to drive, at least put a performance body on it to get the maximum benefit possible. Save the 'scale' bodies for TT01s. I have a Protoform Dodge Stratus 3.1 on my OFNA JL10e, and it's a huge difference driving with and without a body, even in the street.

-Paul

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I'm with 94eg! on this. If you bought a TRF417 to drive, at least put a performance body on it to get the maximum benefit possible. Save the 'scale' bodies for TT01s. I have a Protoform Dodge Stratus 3.1 on my OFNA JL10e, and it's a huge difference driving with and without a body, even in the street.

-Paul

Dont disagree but for car park running snazzy looks and low cost are as important as ultimate downforce efficiency. A white n pink protoform jelly mould isn't good for male image in public places ;)

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I never thought I would hear the day when someone would imply a protoform body was expensive. lol

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I'll put on a normal body for now - I'm assuming 2012 will be just another year in the history of mankind and a really bad movie... that means if I would like to switch to a racing body later on, I can pretty easily :lol:

The reason I'm choosing for a 'scale' shell is that this for me is the point where racing (in general) kind of lost it's roots... It's starting to happen in buggy racing now, where you see the most monstrous contraptions pop up just to get more (front) downforce - not all shells were great before but they did look better. Seriously, a small percentage of that downforce, give it away to have a better looking shell - because that last bit is not going to help you win when it really comes down to it (at least in offroad it doesn't).

I'm not saying I never ever would use a racing body, just that I'd like to try a scale body first and my prediction is that I'll stick to that. I think it would be going way too far in my situation to do all the TC racing preparations to a car that's 'just' to keep my driving skills up. I'm talking about things like extensive prepping to the driving surface, tire warmers, setup gizmo - and to a degree, compromising the looks of the car just to get more downforce (even if the car was initially built for all those circumstances) - after all I'm racing against myself only, so no regulations to maximize my car within, and there is no timer involved.

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I never thought I would hear the day when someone would imply a protoform body was expensive. lol

perhaps not compared to a rare Tamiya bodyset, but a shell, cans of paint and decals all add up - maybe not that much but there are ready to go alternatives for general car park bashing use. Each to their own, to my mind nothing wrong with having a great chassis under a cheap shell, bit of a Q car ;)

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youre-doing-it-wrong-car-flipping-over.jpg

I think what the boys are trying to tell you is, if you insist on using the 'scale' shells, you may be missing out on one of the most exciting aspects of this type of chassis. Believe me I was stunned when I finally switched to 'jelly mould' and found the my TRF415 suddenly had some grip. Like night and day! These cars were very carefully designed to utilize shells like the aforementioned Stratus; Anything else and you may well end up having handling worse than that of the TT01 you've sourced from. Ditto goes for the racing wing... These provide a lot more than just a bit of down force!

I read you that you need to stay on a budget, so why not save some money and buy an appropriate shell? Keep the shiny side up = Body lasts longer > Money saved?

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OCD, I am aware of the fact that they increase grip a lot, I'm not denying that.

By the sound of it you've been in my position as well. I've made my choice with cutting up this body - I don't need downforce levels that put so much pressure onto the tarmac that it starts to crack! I know, more downforce equals more wheel pressure, which equals to more grip - and as these cars don't have a lot of weight they do kind of need the downforce...

...But from my view, I doubt the car perform worse with this body than without a body, and without a body it was far better than the other tourers (all Tamiya) I've driven so far. You might wonder if the car will be even more fun with a jelly body on vs. a scale body... And I don't feel that way (right now) because the higher grip will equate to more fun in racing because your car is competitive - but like I said, I'm not driving on a track against other people. If you would compare it to 1:1, I don't see an F1 car being as much fun to drive as a WTCC or WRC vehicle. As you can't upload how the experiences between the two actually felt, I'll try it myself :)

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