repro parts trading ban?

[alfagta]

hi all,

this is just a question and comment for you all, first off i have no interest in selling or linking to any repro stuff and also in no way am i disputing TC rules or decisions and i dont want any arguments starting because of my posts .

the rule mentioned has me puzzled , if tamiya really dont want any repro parts being used that were obtained via tc forum/site why not just keep producing the originals in small back up quantities for premium price sales ?

there are of course some original parts around for almost all tamiya models but some of the prices are truly astonishing , body shells for instance , if it were not for certain companies doing repro bodies many tamiya models would not still be in use , tamiya do seem to be making an effort of late to re-issue kits but they are not the original and so some parts are of no use to those who really want to restore/maintain kits they have had for decades ,

perhaps tamiya are not happy about others making money from tamiya designed kit when they dont pay tamiya for a license to do so , copyright is of course fair but unless tamiya are truly willing to stand by its products for decades after release and keep the supply of original parts needed i dont see how this can be a sensible decision ,

as a for instance i have 4 tb02 cars and the diffs were always a weak link , if i can be so bold as to say they were useless , i am now having huge issues trying to find the hop up parts for the diffs , should i realy junk 4 otherwise perfect rc cars because i cant find better diffs to fit the car but also not be able to have a tc club member point me in the direction of another companies diffs that are better and will keep my tb02's running? .

as i said its an odd decision but one i can 'from a business standpoint', to some extent, understand , from a customer support stand point its rather poor and seems to be a rather blatant two fingers up to tamiya fans.

this is just an opinion and is not intended to start any arguments but sensible and considered responses are welcome.

[Tamiya1/10]

As you know members at TC only use original Tamiya's parts so we can't help you. I guess TC don't want to get into trouble with "Tamiya" and operate like a controlled subsidary of Tamiya instead of being a club.

If you check the "Related Site" in the forum I am sure you will find info where you can get repro stuff and RC4WD (you may know already) have pretty good stuff from parts to complete RC.

Sincerely,

Sales and Marketing Director of RC4WD

[taliesin]

Just because Tamiya Corporation doesn't find it profitable at this time to manufacture or produce certain discontinued parts it doesn't mean that they can or should ignore trademark infrigments. They have the right to exclude others from manufacturing, marketing or selling products for which they hold the trademark, and that is a very, very valuable asset. As we have seen, they can and do re-release products from time to time, and some of them were discontinued and very hard to get not that long ago. Protecting that asset is a smart business move.

In a nutshell, Tamiya is simply protecting their corporate assets by not turning a blind eye to pirating, regardless of the perceived benefit or desirability to the secondary market and collectors. Nothing malicious, just a good business decision.

[Daves956]

If there weren't a clear line between originals and reproduction parts, what would it do to the value and collectability of vintage Tamiya products?

[94eg!]

...tamiya do seem to be making an effort of late to re-issue kits but they are not the original and so some parts are of no use to those who really want to restore/maintain kits they have had for decades...

This statement has me puzzled. Are you saying that aftermarket repro/knock-off parts will satisfy this need?

[beefmuffin]

there's a similar argument that is always churning with regard to designer furniture. pieces like le corbusier, eames, noguchi, etc. but i think from a business standpoint there is a significant difference... but i'll get to that. basically most of the designs in question are old, midcentury etc, and were originally manufactured by companies like herman miller, cassina. in some cases these companies employed the designers (eg, george nelson :: herman miller), in some cases the designers worked directly with the manufacturers on everything from the initial design drawings to the manufacturing process (eg, eames :: herman miller). the rights to the design would be owned or licensed by the manufacturer who would produce the product until either they chose to stop or lost their license. i'm not fully versed on the longevity of copyrights in various countries, many of which are mediated by international treaties, etc... but suffice to say the tamiya designs are all still intact. in the case of some classic furniture pieces it may be less clear. but eventually other companies produce "knock-offs" of the original designs. sometimes these knock offs are poor quality, or deviate from the original just enough to hope to avoid a crack-down. other times the knock-offs are just as good as the original. in some cases the original manufacturers discontinued a product and brought it back years later. sometimes they had the original molds and toolings to produce things exactly the same...sometimes not, and they were essentially copying their own design. in other cases the knock-off manufacturers developed their products from the same specifications and drawing as the 'official' licensee. and in some cases the licensed manufacturer changed to a new one and by the swipe of a pen the 'knock-off' became the 'original' or at least, the officially licensed version. so basically in the market there are three variations (simplifying) of a piece: the vintage original (40 yrs old+), the licensed modern version, and the knock-off version. most people who are fans of design are happy that it's possible to get a "re-release" eames lounge chair and they aren't reserved only for rich old collectors who can pay $10,000 for a nice original. but it's clear that collectors aren't really fussed by the presence of the new releases b/c they basically ignore their existence. they aren't going to be fooled into thinking a new piece is a vintage piece, and they may or may not insist on owning only vintage. the new versions are much more affordable, but the knock-offs are even more affordable. usually half the price, maybe even less. but for someone who cares about design enough to even bother they may not be satisfied with the trade-offs inherent in not having an official version. usually the originals have a serial number plate or a reproduction signature or something (eg, noguchi). so while it does make business sense for the license holders to defend their turf to prevent the market from being flooded with high-quality fakes which would draw business away, despite the fact that there are still plenty of knock-offs available i doubt it's hurting these licensees to a huge degree. by and large the folks buying knock-offs aren't a lost sale to the licensees b/c they wouldn't have bought an original had the knock-off not been available... they wouldn't have had or been willing to pay up. the mediating argument is that having lots of knock-offs cheapens the originals by oversaturating the market. again, i doubt this is as cut and dried as it seems, since it also widens awareness of the design generally and basically draws people into an interest in the design... sort of like an big guerrilla marketing campaign.

BUT... despite all these grey areas and questionable harm to the license owners the biggest difference between designer furniture and r/c cars is that the average customer can only use so much furniture - very limited compared to r/c cars... so if you lose one or two sales per customer you may lose the customer altogether. whereas with something like tamiya cars, as we are all evidence, not only CAN you own more than a few... the more you own the more you are likely to own in the future. every sale of a tamiya r/c car expands the customer base by more than 1. maybe it's 1.75 on average - we can't be exact obviously, but the point is that anything tamiya can do to get more people into the 'hobby' the better off they are. even if part of the sales go to another company who is making a part that tamiya isn't which allows some old cars to remain in circulation, or enhanced parts which help draw in the 'super-users' who tend to drive market trends (look at sneaker companies, ski companies, skateboard companies for background on this). i use and love, for example, some repro lexan bodies that are available... and where a new old stock specimen would basically make the restoration of the car in my possession unaffordable. tamiya doesn't lose money on these bodies unless they compete directly with parts currently sold by tamiya. they also don't license outside companies to produce these items (which, maybe they could/should)... so i don't see why it makes business sense FOR TAMIYA to put the boot down on reproduction makers. it seems like the more old parts available, the better off tamiya is because their fan base grows and i doubt there are ANY TC members who haven't put a few dollars into tamiya's pocket, even if nominally some of us are staunch vintage-heads. making it easier for more people to join our ranks only helps tamiya. the only people who might be a bit miffed by the reproductions are people who own a stash of vintage parts and see these as an investment which is cheapened by the availability of easy-to-find reproductions. they may have a legitimate concern, but their investment fortunes don't affect tamiya's bottom line. people might argue - oh, well why would i collect vintage tamiya cars if they don't appreciate as well in value. really? REALLY? go buy some savings bonds then. tamiya are not doing the right thing business-wise by squelching a thriving ancillary market for tamiya parts and hop-ups. they should license designs to manufacturers, reap some residual, and allow 3rd parties to offer compatible products. grow their ecosystem.

and if someone wants to get all touchy feely about design innovations, they should take a good look at tamiya models that came out before and after RC10 hit the market. everybody riffed on everybody. it's the nature of the beast. but tamiya are undervaluing the asset they have in general pop-cultural appeal and retro appeal. racing is fine, but it isn't a blockbuster in the way driveways could be.

here's a great example of the furniture turf-warfare: http://www.cassinaus.../corbusier.html

ps- for any IP lawyers reading this, don't get all excited about design patents vs copyrights. it's not important to the spirit of the discussion.

[alfagta]

This statement has me puzzled. Are you saying that aftermarket repro/knock-off parts will satisfy this need?

when there is no other option and you want to keep a kit in use then yes they 'can' , but, the point i was trying to make is that tamiya could make more effort to keep the supply of original parts to save us all from having to use repro stuff , it would only take a small dedicated dept within tamiya's structure to do so ,this would also promote a greater sense of tamiya kits being for life rather than 'until its broken without spares back up' .

[alfagta]

If there weren't a clear line between originals and reproduction parts, what would it do to the value and collectability of vintage Tamiya products?

from the stand point of a guy that loves tamiya rc cars i find it rather distasetful that a tamiya rc car should be collected but not driveable for fear of damage , after all ,what were they made for ?, tamiya do wonderful static kits to sit on display shelves , the rc kits are for driving and fun,

but hey, this topic was just to see if others thought that tamiya should do a little more to keep their older products in use , they could even start another branch of the company to reproduce faithfuly parts for previous kits , you only have to look at the turnover on ebay of vintage stuff( and associated issues from duff traders!!) to see there is a market, how many guys do we get on tc forums asking "anyone know where i can get a part for 'X' ? ,

[Daves956]

Your assuming that somewhere there are stockpiles of vintage parts waiting to be sold or that the molds are waiting to be reused again. More than likely neither are true and having the parts to sell means remanufacturing the molds for a low number production run and a big if on breaking even on price vs. return. If you think about 1 mold for every parts tree ever produced, then space, storage and maintenance on them for 20 or more years in hope of ever reusing them, from a corporate decision would you have kept them?

In the auto industry they are required to keep all the dies and molds for 5 years after production ends and you pay for that in the price of the car. There is the same issues there as well.

The majority of reproductions are bodies and decals with parts being a very small fraction of what's out there. Nobody wants to make the molds for small numbers and if they do take it on the price is too high. If there is sufficiant desire for enough parts then you see the rerelease of the entire kit to make it worth while.

[alfagta]

Your assuming that somewhere there are stockpiles of vintage parts waiting to be sold or that the molds are waiting to be reused again. More than likely neither are true and having the parts to sell means remanufacturing the molds for a low number production run and a big if on breaking even on price vs. return. If you think about 1 mold for every parts tree ever produced, then space, storage and maintenance on them for 20 or more years in hope of ever reusing them, from a corporate decision would you have kept them?

In the auto industry they are required to keep all the dies and molds for 5 years after production ends and you pay for that in the price of the car. There is the same issues there as well.

The majority of reproductions are bodies and decals with parts being a very small fraction of what's out there. Nobody wants to make the molds for small numbers and if they do take it on the price is too high. If there is sufficiant desire for enough parts then you see the rerelease of the entire kit to make it worth while.

i understand that , but, automotive dies are often sold to outside manufacturers to make what are often referred to as pattern parts, for certain tamiya models there are are/were parts that were less than perfect and could be termed consumables , its these parts that would still be selling in good enough numbers to justify the continued production, since tamiya seam to have taken the stand point of stopping production of these parts i feel that other manufacturers should be allowed to do so and that members of the tc forum should be allowed to post links to those parts since tamiya have effectively given up on them as a viable product , to simply ban this just seems odd to me

again ,the whole reason for the thread was just an observation rather than a criticism of tc forum. thanks for all the input fella's

[nodtec]

Just my 2c worth. In a few cases companys sell the dies/moulds/designs etc to another smaller company who 'reproduce' parts in small quantitys at slightly higher than normal prices, this keeps the collectors happy and the 'original company' still looks good. i.e. "made under licence to Tamiya". In regards to automotive stuff, I don't know about others, BMW sold the Mini stuff to BH and Classic minis keep being fixed with 'genuine' parts. 80-90% of Ford T and A models part are still available brand new, 100 years later! All made 'under licence' to Ford. Tamiya could do the same, it probably won't stop the dodgey repro's but if you had a choice of a genuine Tamiya set of say, Wild Willy decals for $25 compared to $10 for repro's, which would you have. I forked out $90 for a genuine NOS set and found them knacker from old age, didn't stick and brittle. On the WW1 subject, wouldn't some new WW1/Bruiser tyres be nice.

Another thing I've found regarding Tamiya, they have, or seem to, have no contact details.??? just 'wholesalers' in USA, Europe etc.

As for where I am, Australia, I think it's Toy Traders, who might aswell not exist as there is absolutely zilch parts back up service.

Hmm, that seems more like 50c worth, so I'd better shut up.

[matman]

As for where I am, Australia, I think it's Toy Traders, who might aswell not exist as there is absolutely zilch parts back up service.

Hmm, that seems more like 50c worth, so I'd better shut up.

Yep !! it's Toy Traders that have screwed up Tamiya here in Australia . I know alot of

hobby shops that won't get stuff from them & only get traxxas & other brands that they

don't do .

toy traders don't care about tamiya for some reason ! & are locked with them . I know

for some hobby shops trying to take Tamiya off toy traders , But can't .

Toy traders payed tamiya years ( very long time ago ) a some to to be the sole

importer for australia . The price they put onto the mr T parts & cars are over the

top & wonder why people buy on line .

toy traders did have futaba till it got taken off them & the one that took futaba off them ,

was trying to get tamiya off them as well .

[SteveU30]

There is another solution to this issue, 3D printing!

You can already buy a fair few 'repro' parts on Shapeways (959 suspension arms for example) so I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult for Tamiya to transfer their technical drawings over to CAD (for the really old stuff I mean). They could then have their own Shapeways type shop where you go online, order the 'obscure' vintage part you require and a few days later it has been custom made for you and delivered to your door.

I wouldn't be surprised if in another 5-10 years time this is the norm for a lot of spare parts for many industries.

It probably won't be that long before we have Star Trek type 'replicators' in our own home, just walk up to it and say 'Tamiya Hoyshot A parts' and 30 seconds later out it pops! OK so I'm maybe getting a little ahead of myself here but you know it's coming!

[dutch_rc]

Not sure I'll be able to wait a whole 30 seconds.

From what I've seen Tamiya will come down hard on sellers if the violation of intellectual property is blatant. What also seems to play a role is that it is a 'genuine' shop and not a marginal one that's selling home made bits. If there's a larger creative process going on (not random copying) they seem to leave the seller alone, like they do with *****.

[nodtec]

Send the bits to factoy in China to remake them. I haven't seen anyone take the Chinese to court for copying stuff........not and win. I think BMW tried.

[casethejoint]

why not just keep producing the originals in small back up quantities for premium price sales ?

It's not economically viable so just diverts resources away from where the company makes money.

I can definitely see a time when companies will licence you to make your own via Shapeways etc though. No-brainer, just not sure that market is quite ready yet.

[Gruntfuggly]

It would be stupid of them not to enforce their patents/trademarks/copyrights, etc. They don't want to set a precedent for turning a blind eye to older stuff in case it hurts them in the future. And what would be the incentive for them to sell their molds on to a third party? The market volume and profits for vintage RC parts are virtually non-existent compared to pattern parts for 1:1 cars.

This sort of subject crops up fairly often (not a bad thing) and I often think it seems like people miss the point that Tamiya is a large corporation and that they act like one. The common sense that us individuals (at the insignificant end of the consumer chain) would apply simply doesn't apply to Tamiya as a corporation.

[sidewaysdave69]

what I don't understand is, if you mention reproduction goods on here you get a warning and the thread is removed. all because TC has been threatened with legal action, by looking like they are promoting the use of reproduction goods.

then you get all the traders on ebay with blatant copies of decals and bodies. surely Tamiya should be going after them and not the likes of TC?

[Tamiyabigstuff]

Personally I don't see the harm in simply discussing repro parts so long as they are not being promoted or offered for sale.

There was a thread yesterday along the lines of 'What do you think of K****c Astute bodies...?' which now seems to have been removed.

Just had a look at some completed items on ebay and there are plenty of examples of repro items for Tamiya models still being sold.

So, if I want to sell a model which has a repro body, I can only 'sell' the non repro portion and state that the repro part is supplied 'free of charge' with the purchase of the chassis...I guess ???

[TWINSET]

then you get all the traders on ebay with blatant copies of decals and bodies. surely Tamiya should be going after them and not the likes of TC?

Tamiya did 'go after' a couple of eBay traders, which is why some of them still sell decals for other brands but not Tamiya.

I don't know if Tamiya are still going after repro manufacturers, but to avoid any legal action, Chris agreed that Tamiyaclub would not permit the trading and promotion of reproduction parts.

To avoid similar issues with any other manufacturers, this was also extended to cover repro goods full-stop, not just repros of Tamiya stuff.

Any stuff on other sites is for Tamiya to concern themselves with, but just because it's on eBay doesn't mean it's prmitted here.

Trades for 'complete' kits which include repro parts are let go as the trade is predominanlty for the rest of the items, but trades for a bodyshell or decals on their own would be deleted, as would/are any discussions regarding the quality and availability of repro goods.

Bottom line is if Tamiyaclub (read Chris) is threatened with any further action, then it'd close down - banning repro goods is done to ensure the continued existence of TC.

Nobody here knows how far Tamiya could be pushed by allowing discussion, and there's only the hard way to find out and once discussion starts mentioning manufacturers and promoting the quality of one manufacturer over another, then it becomes advertising, of sorts

If repro goods are that important to you, get yourselves a forum to discuss and promote them, just don't advertise it here!

[Champ85]

What is the difference between a "repro" and "hop-up" item? For example, if someone makes an aluminum part in the same shape and general design as the original Tamiya plastic part, it is considered "repro" or a "hop-up" item? Or are hop-ups such as this restricted as well?

[TWINSET]

No idea legally - I've always considered true 'hop ups' to be improvements/upgrades over the stock parts using different materials with the manufacturer producing their own molds etc - Take RPM arms for Traxxas trucks as an example - same fittings as the original but with improved function if their promo material is to be believed.

Not sure where the likes of GPM fall into place when they and Tamiya both make alu motor mounts for the old TA0X chassis range though.

There's been no restriction on here of hop-ups, purely because it was never part of the original issue.

What's considered as repro here is largely, but not exclusively;

Re-drawn decals clearly using Tamiya's original designs

Bodyshells that have been cast from the originals or are exact copies of the originals

Resin (or similar) copies of driver figures (not so much of an issue now the Blazer driver's readily available again)

Unfortunately, pretty much anything a restorer may consider using if the original wasn't available and any material using Tamiya box art, branding or original artwork such as TShirts, mugs, posters etc.

[super gripper]

Is it me or is this what eBay is for !!

everybody sells repro parts on there .............

[Tamiya1/10]

i just wondered, did Tamiya trade mark, registered, copy right, patented...all its designs? If not, isn't it free for "copying" without legal consequences? Any lawyers at TC can provide us with a legal opinion?

[sidewaysdave69]

if its got a Tamiya logo on it then they own the rights to it. correct me if I am wrong.