repro parts trading ban?

[SteveU30]

The reproduction of bodies is a grey area though, I asked a repro body shell manufacturer (who shall rename nameless to protect the discussion and Tamiyaclub) once how they can blatantly advertise repro bodies without repercussion and this is the answer I got:

"Replicating a body is no different than an after market company selling a replica front fender for a model t ford. As long as there is no ford badge or art work on the fender there is nothing any one can do.

Many companies have tried to stop us from making replicas and after many $ spent at copy right lawyers they can not do anything as we are in our full rights to do so."

[speedy_w_beans]

I think if you look at any lexan body from Tamiya, you'll find a part number, copyright date, and Tamiya company name molded into the untrimmed vacuum formed piece itself. Just because the trimmed body doesn't have copyright on it, that doesn't it make it right to duplicate. The untrimmed original complete part clearly has markings on it. All the styrene and ABS hard shells have a part numbers, copyright, and Tamiya name molded into them as well, inside the shell. These should not be duplicated either.

As someone who works in a large company, I understand why Tamiya wants to prevent reproduction parts -- it dilutes the brand and reduces future business potential. We can also speculate as to why Tamiya does not produce original parts from 30-year old designs: a) injection machines have been replaced with newer models, and certain molds are no longer compatible with the machines, c ) making a new mold to shoot another 20 parts makes no financial sense whatsoever, and c) no one is going to pay $2000 per body for 20 pieces to break even on that new mold.

I support Tamiya clamping down on reproduction parts, and I support Tamiyaclub's conservative policy to avoid a site shutdown. It's inconvenient and frustrating from a restorer's perspective, but the law is put in place to combat theft of intellectual property. It's a slippery slope -- first it starts with a Striker shell, then Porsche 959 shell, then a Grasshopper shell, then a TXT-2 and finally a Rock Socker. The reproduction companies are playing with fire.

[Raman36]

For the most part, it seems that Tamiya is going after those that are copying bodies, decal sheets. Although someone mentioned driver figures as well. Replacement internal parts such as gears, are not something I have noticed that they have gone after.

With regards to decal sheets and bodies, here is something we should keep in mind: Tamiya once upon a time paid royalties and licensing fees to car manufacturers, and sponsors. When items were discontinued, Tamiya ceased paying fees for those items.

Many of us have noticed that the re-releases at times do not have the same sponsor decals, because Tamiya chose not to renew the rights to use them.

When repros and copies of bodies and decal sheets appear for sale, the brands and sponsors could very well go after Tamiya for new royalties, since it is tamiya's original licensed design that is being copied.

Therefore Tamiya is most likely protecting itself from such headaches and in some cases, they may have even reacted to pressure from a brand or sponsor.

[Tamiya1/10]

when goods costs $.50 to make and sells it for $50.00, there is just too much incentives not to buy the knock off. I think is up to each an everyone of us to decide whether to buy the real thing or the A or B grade clone. I myself will buy the original with a 10 -20 percent premium, but once the orginal is 100 to 500 x more than the knockoff, i will likely go for the knockoff unless the quality is just garbage.

[nodtec]

Something I don't understand is why it's wrong to reproduce something they don't even make anymore. If they're not willing to make them then why don't they turn a blind eye to those willing to. It's not like they're losing trade/money by this. If the part is clearly marked as a non genuine replacement part where's the problem. Also, don't copyrights only apply for certain amount of time? or is that patents?

[Tamiya1/10]

is call greed or cannot stand the thought someone else is making some money.

There are people for and against minimal wage, but what able maximum wage? Why is these Wall Street broker can make milions, while some only make $20k per year? Are these masters of the universe 1000 or 10000 or 100000 better than joe the landscaper? When society has this gross imbalance, things will happen and no laws can stop it.

[speedy_w_beans]

Something I don't understand is why it's wrong to reproduce something they don't even make anymore. If they're not willing to make them then why don't they turn a blind eye to those willing to. It's not like they're losing trade/money by this. If the part is clearly marked as a non genuine replacement part where's the problem. Also, don't copyrights only apply for certain amount of time? or is that patents?

Flip this question around. How come the people making reproductions can't bother themselves to open a discussion with Tamiya and obtain a license? Also, Tamiya may not be losing money today, but reproductions rob them of potential future business. Copyright, if respected, gives Tamiya the ability to judge if there is enough demand for a part to justify making it again. Reproductions partially satisfy today's demand and damage the future business case to make the genuine parts again.

is call greed or cannot stand the thought someone else is making some money.

There are people for and against minimal wage, but what able maximum wage? Why is these Wall Street broker can make milions, while some only make $20k per year? Are these masters of the universe 1000 or 10000 or 100000 better than joe the landscaper? When society has this gross imbalance, things will happen and no laws can stop it.

In any large organization there are limits to knowledge and authority depending on high up you are in the organization structure. The low-level manager may know his department and have a few thousand dollars worth of authority/freedom, but the CEO and board members look at the whole company and the world around them, and are associated with much larger decisions involving millions and billions of dollars. They also don't own their lives and are constantly under stress to perform by investors. Are you saying the low-level manager should be compensated the same as a CEO/board member with much higher authority? Or the other way around? No one would aspire to run a company if the pay and benefits didn't scale with the job. Look at the state of Ford Motor Company -- a combination of smart pre-bailout loans and hard product management really turned the company around. Are you saying Alan Mulally didn't earn it? What price do you put on leadership?

[dutch_rc]

Are you saying Alan Mulally didn't earn it? What price do you put on leadership?

Not $23 million annually in any case. No amount of stress to justify that salary if you ask me.

[Tamiya1/10]

In any large organization there are limits to knowledge and authority depending on high up you are in the organization structure. The low-level manager may know his department and have a few thousand dollars worth of authority/freedom, but the CEO and board members look at the whole company and the world around them, and are associated with much larger decisions involving millions and billions of dollars. They also don't own their lives and are constantly under stress to perform by investors. Are you saying the low-level manager should be compensated the same as a CEO/board member with much higher authority? Or the other way around? No one would aspire to run a company if the pay and benefits didn't scale with the job. Look at the state of Ford Motor Company -- a combination of smart pre-bailout loans and hard product management really turned the company around. Are you saying Alan Mulally didn't earn it? What price do you put on leadership?

Good leadership is very important, but without the people behind the sence to carryout the actual work would be nothing. Is team work.

As in the human body, which part is more important? The brain? Sure but does it account for 1000 or 10000 times more in value or in energy use? ( On the other hand if the anus is not working see how well the brain and the rest of the body will function.) Than the President or Prime Minister of a country should be paid in the billions or trillions. Is all about balance /fairness. If we all should play by the rule, not that we shouldn't, every time one drive over the speed limit, report yourself and ask a speeding ticket be written out.

[SteveU30]

I know we're going wildly off topic here but what about sports stars, they are way over paid and quite often behave irresponsibly to boot! Definitely not worth what they're paid a lot of the time!

[Raman36]

Yes we are definitely going off a capitalistic topic and heading right into socialism.

Asking the government to place maximum wages on a publicly traded company? It is not the job of the government nor should it ever be. Government knows how to do one thing best... Waste money!

You want to talk about over paid individuals? Take a look at the salaries, entitlements of local, state and federal employees. The state of California has been teetering on bankruptcy since 2009. The high up officials are still collecting their over paid salaries and refuse to relinquish their pensions, even though there is no money to support their entitlements.

These are the people you want to place a maximum salary?

When private and public companies are not doing well financially, there are lay off and pay cuts.

Money's invested in retirement funds go up and down with the economy.

Government keeps everything steady. When there is no more money, they raise taxes.

Presidents and Prime Ministers should be paid billions or trillions? Where would such salaries come from? The tax player, would foot the salary. Do you think we can afford to pay them that much?

It's a choice to be a public servant. For that reason, it should be just that and in my opinion they should work for free. The president or prime minister should earn $0. They live in the presidential palace such, their meals are paid for by us the tax payer. He doesn't have a single expense. So why should he earn $400k per year? (Salary of US presidents)

US Senators and House of Representatives make $174,000 per year. That excludes all the $ they receive from the outside. Once you become a senator, you automatically become a millionaire and are set for life. They also receive the best Heath insurance and pension for life, regardless of what happens to the economy. You want to talk about greedy.. Look at the government not corporations.

[nodtec]

Flip this question around. How come the people making reproductions can't bother themselves to open a discussion with Tamiya and obtain a license? Also, Tamiya may not be losing money today, but reproductions rob them of potential future business. Copyright, if respected, gives Tamiya the ability to judge if there is enough demand for a part to justify making it again. Reproductions partially satisfy today's demand and damage the future business case to make the genuine parts again.

I doubt that aproaching Tamiya would work, they don't talk to anyone from what I read. So getting a licence to make copys would only happen in dreams. As for them remaking stuff to 'help' people, just makes me laugh. I buy tamiya stuff for their quality/value/design, certainly not for their back up service, especially here in Auz. I gave up buying locally years ago, Tamiya in Australia is dead compared to the rest of the world.

[GregM]

Flip this question around. How come the people making reproductions can't bother themselves to open a discussion with Tamiya and obtain a license? Also, Tamiya may not be losing money today, but reproductions rob them of potential future business. Copyright, if respected, gives Tamiya the ability to judge if there is enough demand for a part to justify making it again. Reproductions partially satisfy today's demand and damage the future business case to make the genuine parts again.

Good point! I share your opinion.

[mongoose1983]

Something I don't understand is why it's wrong to reproduce something they don't even make anymore. If they're not willing to make them then why don't they turn a blind eye to those willing to. It's not like they're losing trade/money by this. If the part is clearly marked as a non genuine replacement part where's the problem. Also, don't copyrights only apply for certain amount of time? or is that patents?

Because if you're not able to fix, say, your old Bruiser (or any car for that matter) you'd probably end up being the potential buyer of a new Tamiya kit. A few years ago it was the Hilux High-Lift the kit you'd probably turn to, now you have other options in the market. It's just their way to keep the most people caught on their business.

On a side note, I wonder how many of the guys who bought the Hilux High-Lift would do so again now that the re-re Bruiser and Mountaineer are out. I did back in in the day, not sure I'd do it again.

[Tamiya1/10]

Because if you're not able to fix, say, your old Bruiser (or any car for that matter) you'd probably end up being the potential buyer of a new Tamiya kit. A few years ago it was the Hilux High-Lift the kit you'd probably turn to, now you have other options in the market. It's just their way to keep the most people caught on their business.

On a side note, I wonder how many of the guys who bought the Hilux High-Lift would do so again now that the re-re Bruiser and Mountaineer are out. I did back in in the day, not sure I'd do it again.

I think Tamiya don't really care much if small time operator s copying their product they stop producing years ago. There is just not enough money for Tamiya to hire a team of Lawyers and filing suits to the small operator. On the other hand, if say Kyosho, HPI or other large company is copying Tamiya's product, you bet they will take action. Action may be taken if web seller advertises they do Tamiya knockoff, but likely Tamiya will sent the company an email to stop else appropriate action will be taken.

For decals, any color print shop can redo Tamiya's decals without breaking a sweat, they just won't advise it and Tamiya won't even know about. The 3D printer will be a game changer for toy company and once the printing instructions are available, any 3D printer own can make their own parts or shells.

Back to the re re for Hilux High-Lift, not interested at even if re-release. Only model will consider is the Blazer.