Re-releases are KILLING the hobby

[JWeston 493]

Renken is a lover of vintage 3-Speeds so maybe he's heard they're rere'ing the Hilux or Blazer?? :-)

He only posted last night, Jak Rizzo, so give him a chance to respond.

I do know people who've lost heart when they've spent a very long time completing a model, only for it to be announced as a re-release, but the majority of people who don't like the re-releases have lost money... That's my opinion.

Honda City shell for 2013 Tamiya, please!!!

J

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

So far the arguments against re-res seems to include:

1) Re-res flood the market with copies of the original to the point that they are no longer rare.

2) By no longer being rare (since few people care to nitpick between vintage and re-res), those who own vintage feel like they are losing something. That something might be a formerly rare link to childhood, the joy of hunting for rare parts, bragging rights over one of just a few examples left, a focused shared sense of value with a small group of like-minded collectors, and let's be honest--a significant time and money investment in some cases.

I get it. No one denies it. Nowadays anybody can give any model the Jun Watanabe treatment if they want to, even the beloved Sand Scorcher is not safe. There's just no respect or love for vintage anymore because it's all so common in the form of re-res. That's certainly one point of view.

On the other hand, re-res have made vintage accessible to the masses (again I'm not nitpicking between vintage and re-re) at a reasonable price without fear of destroying something rare. The overall market can treat these models casually, tinker with them, run them hard, destroy them, and rebuild them over and over again without fear. Isn't that how these models were treated before they achieved vintage status? Why treat them any differently now? Whether it's true vintage or re-re, drive it like you stole it for crying out loud. Don't imprison it in a glass case. This is another point of view.

Finally, I would argue without re-res Tamiya does not have anything unique in the market (ignoring tractor trailers at the moment). All of their modern chassis overlap with other manufacturers' products whether it be buggies, trucks, cars, tanks, etc. At least with the re-res they have something distinct in the market, just like Traxxas claims fastest everything, Associated claims 26 IFMAR championships, etc. Re-re's are Tamiya's calling card in the marketplace.

In the end, I think Tamiya made the right move by recognizing demand and capitalizing on it. Maybe they wouldn't have re-released anything if the vintage market hadn't created an artificially inflated bubble to begin with. Who knows for sure? I think more people have benefited from re-res than vintage collectors have lost overall.

[B.M.T. 127]

They are still minting coins, and even though the market is flooded with coins from 2011 that are practical and plentiful to more people than just collectors, it does not devaluate coins from the 1500's.

In most if not all of the reissues (at least the old ones that are rare), there are definite identifiers that differentiate original releases from the new ones.

This should not at all effect the value of an original SRB, Frog or Brat (for example), as someone wanting an original new build or NIB will still want an original. Even to the degree of increasing the desirability, because one could have the self satisfaction of finding an oldy amongst the current crop. Even, if something benign was missing or broken, there are now parts accessible to complete that otherwise perfect salvage job..... in some cases.

New SRB front arms are a different profile, and the rear arms won't fit a new gear case properly, for example. For those who know and care, it changes nothing.

More than sour grapes over a devalued investment, this hate is probably more focused on the fact that the have-nots now are do-haves and the average Tamiya appreciator can have a close enough version to something that they could not afford NIB 3 years ago, and the purists still can search out the original items like they used to.

If anything is killing the "hobby", it's greed, and that has been around a lot longer than the re-releases. After all, look at the trade rooms for members on the main site and see how many for sale ads have no price, it's best offer. That's not a for sale ad, that is an auction.

[scoobybooster 248]

Funny how this conversation starts over and over again

Personally i have to admit that i can understand both sides: for example-before all this rere-hassle i was very excited about an old wild one popping up somewhere on an auction platform.All i wanted is to get this thing in my hands and start bringing this old buggy back to life. Meanwhile i have no intentions in restauring a wildone because if i want one,all i have to do is walk in a shop and buy it...

On the other side i'm soo thankful that Tamiya made it possible to walk in a hobbyshop and buy a brand new Toyota Bruiser.Building this thing patiently at home and just feel like being back in the 80's again!

So for me it's just ok the way things are going on.Waiting for more joyful kits to be appearing again in hobbyshops that i was soo dreamfully wishing about back then

[waterbok 1282]

Honda City shell for 2013 Tamiya, please!!!

J

Yes, and different decal sets (1 thru 5) so one can build the original racing team

[Bigwheels_inc 11]

The re releases havn't changed anything besides values realy so wheres the problem,

Vintage parts are still out there and the hunt for them hasn't changed,

and for me having an original in my collection means I know its an original vintage model & thats what counts, (just means I can have a re re runner too)

& re re parts can also be usefull to keep those vintage runners/ bashers going,

im happy that oneday I will be able to now get a Bullhead runner cheap aswell as a vintage one to restore again but again the Vintage bullhead will be 100% Vintage and the re re will be a runner and atleast I will know the vintage one is 100% vintage and to me thats what counts.

[alfagta 126]

surely the re re issue has improved the situation for the vintage collectors as now the non vintage collector can pick up a rere thus reducing the prices that vintage collectors have to pay. the only reason I can see for anyone having issue with Tamiya's rere policy is that it has reduced the monetary value of the originals and also that Tamiya have run out of ideas and inspiration to produce some of the truly scale looking cars they are famous for .

[SteveAdair 2]

Reading the replies to this topic I think its fair to say that, over the past 2-3 years, most of us have got back in to the hobby following Tamiya's re-release of our favourite 80's car that we either owned and ran, or wished we could have owned and run when we were 14. That is not killing the hobby, it is re-invigorating it. Since then, I have bought several new kits (not rere) from most major manufacturers (Kyosho, Losi, Axial, Mardave) so the hobby is buoyant, even in a recession. I do own a couple of vintage cars that I paid out for, and restored, but I did it for the fun and love of the hobby, not for any financial reasons. If they subsequently lose value following a rere then that is the risk I chose to take, I can't complain about it and I will still treasure those cars.

[Grastens 2795]

These threads are getting along the same line as politics and religion...

With all due respect: these threads also express one strong opinion, prompting an argument from those who see the same issue from the other strong opinion, and as a result we get either a debate or heavily-worded posts from people passionate to express and maybe defend their stand on the issue. I think this is to be expected, though I am glad we are at least being reasonably civil about it.

I do see why the vintage collector is upset but more importantly see what the vintage builder thinks of the re-releases...

[Sheriff 36]

At the end of the day, re-re's have bought a lot of joy to people. Compared to a small amount of people who are against re-re's.

Making a lot of people happy - definitely not a bad thing.

[shenlonco 1156]

Reading all this and all these post's i have to say ...

LIVE WITH IT

IT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE!!

No sense grumping about it we can't change anything.

Re Releases are here and that's just how it is!

[TA-Mark 195]

I only have a few vintage buggys as there were only a few that really stood out for me. The most prominent in my collection is the Fox. I bought my first one at great expense, restored it to near perfect condition at even more expense (the yellow Fox in my avatar). Then I bought a second Fox, in slightly better condition than the first, but still no shelf queen. I restored this second Fox again at great expense to near perfect new built condition (Box art).

...But will I complain when (IF) Mr T re-releases the Fox. Not a chance!! I'll probably buy several, and I really don't care how much the first two cost compared to how much I will pay for a re-release. Same scenario with the Super Champ.

My other vintage type buggys are all re-releases, but fitted with a mixture of modern and vintage hop up parts.

Finding vintage parts is still just as hard as it always was, if not now harder, as some seem to advertise the re-release parts as vintage and you never really know what you're buying until you're holding it in your hands.

One thing to note is that my collection is for using as they were intended. Not for show pieces (except that one box art Fox), or for monetary or investment value.

[pininfarina 1009]

I am all for Re Re Releases ;-)

Thank you tamiya! You help me bring back memories of my childhood and also now as an adult could afford those that I can't afford as a kid! Those I grew up with, those that I missed!

[shenlonco 1156]

I am all for Re Re Releases ;-)

Thank you tamiya! You help me bring back memories of my childhood and also now as an adult could afford those that I can't afford as a kid! Those I grew up with, those that I missed!

RIGHT ON BROTHER!!

[Foxone 20]

The only thing re-re's are killing are my bank balance...

In fact buying a bit of heat shrink could kill my bank balance at the mo, given the state of my finances!

Bring on the next one... although I doubt I could afford that at this present time, let alone a vintage, but I will enjoy the buzz of the release just as much. (EDIT: If it's a 959, I might just end up in neg. equity!)

I thought this hobby was supposed to be affordable once I became an adult? ... guess that's the low paid income that shot that idea down.... I guess I should of listened in class better as a kid, instead of dreaming about tamiya!

Hold on a minute.... ?

[Wandy 1527]

Some great replies here.

I really don't understand this argument.

If you collect vintage cars, how do the re-releases affect you at all? The same number of cars and parts are still out there, prices and desirability still fluctuate, some bits are still near impossible to get, some people are making money and some are losing it. What has really changed?

The vintage market doesn't really help the hobby as a whole. Parts and cars pass from collector to collector, none of the money goes to Tamiya for them to invest in future products.

What Tamiya and many others are tapping into is the nostalgia market, giving us the chance to buy cars very similar to those we had or wanted when we were younger. The chance to buy these cars as new kits, with spares availability and fresh tyres and that wonderful new kit smell (as opposed to that not so wonderful 30 years in someones loft smell!).

So why is there a problem? The vintage cars are still out there for vintage collectors, those of us who want to can buy new re-release kits and Tamiya obviously make money on the re-releases, money to invest in the continuation of this great hobby of ours.

This above pretty much sums it up.

However this below is the comment that hits the bullseye.

More than sour grapes over a devalued investment, this hate is probably more focused on the fact that the have-nots now are do-haves and the average Tamiya appreciator can have a close enough version to something that they could not afford NIB 3 years ago.

The main reason a small section of the community get their knickers in a twist about re-releases has a little bit to do with their vintage models losing monetary value but a LOT to do with the fact that the model is no longer anywhere near as exclusive as it used to be. And to be honest that is perfectly understandable as it is human nature to want things that not many other people have. I just wish the complainers would be more honest about this as I would have a lot more time for their opinions instead of bleating on about how re-releases "kill the hobby".

The article on Tamiya101 was a perfect example of this. No doubt it was a perfectly reasonable argument put forward but I found it to be full of contradictions. Two pieces in it stood out for me, the first being...

To see a Frog again in it's new built glory after so many years was quite something and stired up deep down emotions, childhood memories and joy, it makes you feel young again and that's very addictive! Buying a re-release Frog from Ebay and having it shipped to Japan just isn't the same I'm afraid. It makes me look at my new built vintage Frog differently too, it's de-valued financially but that's not the real problem as I don't plan to sell it but it's also taken away it's rarity in a big way. Ok so it is *truly* vintage but actually people don't seem to care about that which is evident in the prices. It's a real shame that the re-releases make me feel this way about my models but it does and I have even started looking at my other models in the same way because I know they may well end up being re-released any day now.

The complaint is that people might have less admiration for a vintage model because of it's re-release equivalent. And to me that is just nonsense. To me it has more to do with the collector's ego being bruised, which again I do find understandable.

And then soon after, we read...

So when will it stop and what comes next? I just don't know in truth and nothing would surprise me, I do know that I have been selling many models firstly before their values crash but more importantly because I don't feel the same about them any more. Every shelf in my collection has a model on it that has been re-released now and that's something I never thought I would see. It seems that Tamiya have little regard for the collector community and are motivated by money.

A contradictory statement from the one above. Firstly it was about re-releases not "stirring the vintage emotions" but in the end it does seem to boil down to value? And it's a bit hypocritcal to accuse the company of being solely motivated by money if you are considering selling up before the value of your own collection plummets.

[Katan 10]

Seems a lot of negative assumptions of other members motives for collecting are being made on this topic. Why do some of you think it sour grapes or percieved loss of value that is the issue?

I don't actually collect vintage models nor am I a vintage Tamiya purist/snob. I built a few vintage Tamiya's 10 years ago but then moved on to making my own.

I think the OPs meaning of "hobby" in this context is his hobby which is collecting parts and restoring vintage models.

I think a lot of people were in this hobby (as defined above) for the chase.

Yes there are still a lot of old models that have not been rereleased but a lot of the popular ones have been.

So I can understand his point of view (if my asssumptions of his intended meaning are right. I should be a lawyer).

I also agree with the rest of you that reres are good for the RC hobby in general.

[Wandy 1527]

I think a lot of people were in this hobby (as defined above) for the chase.

Most of us are in it for that chase too. But that chase has not ended. If you want to only collect vintage period correct parts how have re-releases affected that particular chase when nearly of the parts are subtly different in terms of design and/or colour, date markings, sprue detail and packaging style?

If there had never been a re-release of any kind the vintage parts for the vintage models would be no easier or harder to find than they are now in the current re-re era.

[markbt73 5316]

I can sort of understand the loss of specialness/exclusivity. The most prized models on my shelf are the ones I know are uncommon (RC10 Worlds, Cox Ultrastock) or, though not rare, definitely not coming back (original Blackfoot, Opima Mid). And restoring a vintage model is a labor of love, while buying a re-re is just another e-commerce transaction.

What I don't understand is the hyperbole. Does my having a re-re Hotshot somehow "ruin" someone else's original? Not at all. If anything, since I run my cars, my choice of a re-re over an original saves an original from the possibility of damage or loss. I won't be competing with them for a dwindling supply of originals for contradictory purposes. So re-res of popular models are actually good news for serious collectors.

And personally, if I were to start collecting NIB kits or shelf queens, I would go for cars from defunct companies: Nichimo, Hirobo, Bolink, AYK. No chance of re-releases there.

(though if anyone from Tokyo Marui is listening... Big Bear 2013. Just a suggestion.)

[Katan 10]

If you want to only collect vintage period correct parts how have re-releases affected that particular chase when nearly of the parts are subtly different in terms of design and/or colour, date markings, sprue detail and packaging style?

It really depends on how much importance/significance an individual puts on those subtle differences. I know when I was collecting I was more intersted in the end result (i.e having a complete Sand Scorcher). I was not necessarily interested in those details. So for me, the rere Sand Scorcher would kill any interest I had in hunting/building a vintage SS (yes I know about the differences). I would just buy a new one and build it. So while the reres would take the fun out of the chase, they would bring the joy of having a NIB to build.

[pastimesteve 49]

All I can say is bring on more re-releases! For people like me of modest financial means, it is the only way we've been able to afford some of the cars from our youth and then share them with our own kids. Granted, I'd love to see some new Tamiya scale-like cars and trucks for off-road fun, but I'm so thankful to Tamiya for re-releasing so many cool cars from the 80s and 90s.

I wish Kyosho would re-release their old stuff too!

Steve

[RENKEN 2000 1]

Wow this is making a lot of emotional feelings to a lot of people. I am one of the old colletors of the 80tie's

not a new bie who started in last few years... The fact is that all the re releases make's the vintage RC cars not so rare and desireble any more.

Nothing to do with value or money... Just you can buy NEW (vintage) RC cars in the store. Normal you did search on the internet, for that last part whats making an almost forgotten and lost rc model complete .....Building like in the eightie's .... You dont have the feeling like we had then in the early eightie's. Its just not the same...

I do agree with you all about the old new models, to release them.. but make them totally different, and do make it almost equal the same ...because that sells good for mr Tamiya. For the Tamiya compagnie its for sure about the money. But for collectors its the desire to have and built/restore an rare model...

this is a part of my collection , so i know what i am talking about...

Sorry dont want to hurt your feelings about this.. its just my opinion.....

[Jak Rizzo 6]

He only posted last night, Jak Rizzo, so give him a chance to respond.

J

Respond to what? this topic has been done to death, so why start it again? It's as simple as everything else you can purchase in life, don't like it?, don't buy it.

Just stay in your basement wrapped up snug in your Tamiya pyjamas ( at least they havn't been re released yet ) & pretend that Mr Tamiya didn't re release anything. & don't use the internet............

[RENKEN 2000 1]

We all have our own motive's for this.. And i respect every one his own vision on this..

It seems there no real vintage collectors here, only drivers i think

[RENKEN 2000 1]

I think what the OP was saying is that the reres are taking the fun out of hunting for vintage/rare parts and building a vintage model over a period of time and getting the satisfaction that comes with completing it.

I agree with him if that was his intended meaning.