RENKEN 2000

Re-releases are KILLING the hobby

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To summarise...

What's annoying:

1. Re-releases temporarily remove a good portion of the market for particular cars, ie those who want a particular car and don't care if it's original or not. This means you can no longer easily sell certain original cars for 'collector' premium prices, unless you search harder for a buyer who cares whether the car is re-re or not. This is perceived as loss of value of a collection. But let's face it - if you're in this hobby for the speculation, you are in the wrong hobby.

2. Re-releases reduce the prestige factor (snobbery factor) among collectors in owning a rare collector item that others don't have but desire to have.

3. Spare parts, complete cars and original NIB kits become harder to find through 'easy' places like eBay, where it was previously not uncommon to get original cars and spares for a premium. Sales of original vintage items seem to disappear from eBay as potential sellers realise they can't get the high prices for them any more. So there's no 'easy' way to pay a premium to get vintage items easily on the Internet any more.

4. Vintage cars may have been 'corrupted' with repairs involving re-release parts.

What's not changed:

1. Finding vintage kits and parts at garage sales, markets, boot sales, swap meets etc and still lurking in peoples' attics/basements.

2. Building and restoring process

3. You can still choose to hunt for vintage cars/parts. Nobody is forcing the re-re's into your collection. The same amount of vintage stuff is still out there, and the thrill of finding vintage parts is greater when they are harder to find.

4. You can still trade with collectors on forums like this.

What's awesome...

1. Availability of cars for people who want runners, shelf display cars, etc.

2. Availability of spares or options to repair broken vintage cars with new parts

3. Joy of building these old kits from NIB

4. New variants to collect

5. Re-releases aren't forever, they are released in batches. When re-re batches dry up, prices slowly rise again. Some of the re-release cars were quite limited, and are themselves becoming collectible, eg re-re Dyna Storm, Top Force

6. Hardcore collectors still value and respect the original versions, and take joy in knowing all the differences between original and re-re's, and speculating why those changes were made.

7. Altough it's rarer to find originals on eBay, they are relatively cheaper.

8. The re-re's are generally better than the originals. Eg, the ORV Lancer compared to the much better looking TA-03RS version.

So depending how much these matter to you, it's better or worse, or just different. The hobby has changed. If you're in it for kit value and snob factor, or exclusively collecting older stuff, it sucks. If you are in it for the building and running, or an anorak collector who likes variants and knowing all the small differences, it's awesome.

For me - The awesome far outweighs the negative. For me, the re-re's just add more options to this already rich hobby.

- James

Well said James!

OSR

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Well said James!

OSR

I think that overall the re-re`s are a good thing.

About 6 years ago it was really hard to make headway getting to know people on this board because if you didn't have a SRB then you were really in the "in crowd". These were the guys that everyone was talking about and posting about because they were the "cool kids" that had the vintage models that a lot of us couldn't afford.

The thing that turned me off the forum for a while is that regular guys would post things wanting to know stuff about supposedly "a insuperior tamiya model" (such as The Falcon) these guys in the "old boys club" would basically get all bent out of shape and virually ignore really good forum topics and fellow members because they felt that if you didn't have a SRB, then a conversation wasn't worth having with you on this board. It was funny to see when a guy would mount a Sand Scorcher body on anything other that a SRB these guys would take offence and get so bent out of shape! lololol

With the re-re's there was a mass exodus of "the old guys" that no longer were "The Man". This place definatley changed from the past. With the re-re's we have gained so many new members that this place is "not so clicky" as it once was. I think that with the re-re's that new blood is back in the group and this place is a lot more of a positive space then it once was.

I also think there was another group that use to hang around this site that disappeared shortly after the re-re's. They were the parts and vintage model sellers that bought up a lot of stuff and made a killing before the re-re's came in and changed the game. With the re-re's a lot of these guys lost their shirts on there SRB models and parts collections that now are being reproduced and are readily available on eBay.

The first group of guys it would be nice to see them comeback into the fold to enjoy the hobby for what it really is about. The other guys I don't think we will see them much anymore unless The Falcon becomes really rare and they start hocking parts for it! ;) lololol

OSR

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I look at it as these things were made to build and run and not be shef queens, so bring on the re-releases

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I think oldschoolrunner has been spying on me LOL :)

Ive been here 8 years and 6 years ago I did own a sand scorcher but never found it to be clicky on T/C although I have come across a few members that thought they where better than everyone else but not many,

I also sold SRB spares on ebay LMAO.... but that was how I got the parts to build my SS (kept he best parts to build my SS and sold the rest) + It financed my hobby.

& I did loose the shirt from my back LOL but that was due to a divorce rather than any market crash, lost the shirt the R/C Cars and everything else.

I think the whole thing on here and its also happening now with the re re's is its whats in at the time, at the moment the Black Avante seems to be popular along with a few other models and it seems to be the car to have even if it is a re release,

5-6 yers ago the SRB's where in and when i started on here the lunchbox was the car to own.

I think it all go's through stages of what everyone thinks is in at the moment hence some times you can get a vintage for peanuts and 6 months later everyone wants that same model

could just be that thats why 3 speeds have dropped in value, because things like the Avante, hotshot etc are more apealing to people at the moment or maybe they have just had their time and people prefure a runner or 3 speed that they can actully get parts for easily.

either way I dont think theres any down side to the re re's and if the vintage cars have lost value is that not a good thing from a buyers point of vue ?

either way what will be will be.

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Thanks guys for the other websites that do have more info on the differences between the originals and re-re. Will have a look at those, but still, not all the differences are there, at least not enough to be 100% sure that all parts are originals. Not that I care though, its just that most of my Tamiya cars havent yet been re-released (Monster Beetle, Blackfoot, Falcon, Bigwig). If they had then I couldnt care less if it was a re-released part, I'd be happy with the lower price and easy availability. And here's the link to that ebay ad with the difference between the original Avante driver and the re-re...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tamiya-Avante-1988-Driver-Set-Egress-Vanquish-Very-Rare-/261159263087?pt=US_Character_Radio_Control_Toys&hash=item3cce4e1b6f

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I wanted a Sand Scorcher when I was young and was not allowed cos they were too expensive.

When I got older I thought I can now get myself one and found they were selling at £1000 on fleabay! So figured I would never get one but when I saw they were been re-released I bought one straight away. I loved building it and it is one of my favourite models. With out the re-release I would have never been able to get one.

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Ahh anyone remember the days when people here made a petition to get Tamiya to re release a vintage 3 speed?

Most people said that would never happen.. Too much metal, not cost effective etc etc..

Same for the SRB's

Now look!

For me, a re release is just that. It's not a 20 something year old model truck or buggy that you've either owned from new, or trawled eBay to gather enough vintage parts to build or restore.

A re release is a new product, just as the original 3 speeds were once. If someone offered me up a straight swap between my vintage bruiser or a NIB re re I wouldn't take it, because the truck wouldn't be the same. That's not to say I wouldn't like to own both, for different reasons.

You can still buy vintage. You can tell the difference between new and vintage. You can enjoy one, enjoy the other or enjoy both.

I guess the point here is you could feel the very essence of owning a vintage tamiya is slightly tarnished by the fact they've been reproduced. But your vintage models are still the same, have a story to tell, and are truly of the period they were created. I'm sure in another 20 or so years, there will still be 1980's tamiyas to hunt down, restore and enjoy... You'll just have to tell them apart from the younger ones ;)

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Wait... the Falcon is going to be the next big thing? Hooray, I'll be one of the cool kids!

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Bring back the FOX! I wouldn't mind and I have 7 of them and one is Brand New in a box with the original plastic still around the box. I don't care a bit, just want another one!

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Yes, re-re Fox would be nice... Parts for these are getting really hard to find now. I'm still on the lookout for a Fox kit box in nice condition.

- James

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Renken is correct, re-re is hurting (wouldn't say is killing) the original hobbist with a huge collection of the same model, but is great for new comers or just need a few parts to finish the one of or the re-re at 80-90% identical to original is good enough for most hobbist, including myself. I guess the Title did not quite match the content of the forum.

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Wait... the Falcon is going to be the next big thing? Hooray, I'll be one of the cool kids!

Falcon was my first R/C I would buy one of these instantly if they did a re-release (Even though my Wife has said "NO MORE CARS!" lol

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(Even though my Wife has said "NO MORE CARS!" lol

These words sound familiar to me. :rolleyes:

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I've read the entire thread . Some very interesting points of view . My own thoughts are somewhat mixed . On the positive side the re re 's might bring back some of us to the hobby that could'nt afford to buy the iconic tamiya's we all drooled over in the likes of Beaties back in our youths . They are now within our budgets . Plus if your not concerned about fitting 100% original parts they are a huge help when restoring a vintage original .

On the down side the price of original releases has fallen . I SAY - so what ! If your in this hobby to just make a profit or as a investment then i'am sorry to be blunt but your no hobbist . Your just a collector out to make a profit . I just dont get the NIB obcession . These are TOYS . They are meant to be used . Ok so we break parts now and again - and we fix the damage . To me that is a large part of the enjoyment .

In conclusion i say long may the re re's continue .

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You know, I disagree they are killing anything. I have purchased vintage kits for nostalgia sake and because I now can.

Re - releases ? Yeah, a few of those too, which allows me to actually enjoy them as near original as can be at a fraction of the price (except that Bruiser re re - whew - cost me a fortune).

An original will always be an original and a true collector will always want that regardless of any modern re release.

Those that were looking to invest on vintage ? Well that's a can of worms right there.

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......On the down side the price of original releases has fallen.....

On the large part, Tamiya has not released many completely new designs in a very long time. With the exception of the XV-01, what was the last new chassis to the masses (excluding TRF, as that seems to be far distant from Tamiya in large) ? FF03/M05-6, DT02? DF03, DB02?

Tamiya had fallen off the leading edge a long time ago, so I think the re-re thing is a good way for them to stay in business, sticking to what they do best, 1980's and novelty.

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Those that were looking to invest on vintage ? Well that's a can of worms right there.

I wonder if maybe we get hung up on this more than we should? This comment seems to come up again and again. And perhaps there really were/are a couple of people who looked at this as an investment - but at least for me, this doesn't at all represent my one frustration with the re-releases. I bought a fridge last week. If I walked into a shop tomorrow and saw that fridge on sale for 50% off - I'd be pretty darn frustrated. I still want the fridge - I'm just bummed I paid more than I might have. This has nothing at all to do with the fridge being an investment. From the vintage kit collector stand-point - that's all it is for me. There's the odd runner here or there that I just wouldn't have bought had I known the re-res were coming - but by and large, I'd have exactly the same collection either way - I just might have saved a few dollars if I'd bought a few of them post re-release.

But having said that - I love the re-re. I'm super happy to have an original Bruiser NIB, and a couple of shiny re-releases sitting right next to it. And once I finish the dreadfully long task of painting said re-re, I plan to drive it like 10 year old me would have many years ago.

On the large part, Tamiya has not released many completely new designs in a very long time. With the exception of the XV-01, what was the last new chassis to the masses (excluding TRF, as that seems to be far distant from Tamiya in large) ? FF03/M05-6, DT02? DF03, DB02?

Tamiya had fallen off the leading edge a long time ago, so I think the re-re thing is a good way for them to stay in business, sticking to what they do best, 1980's and novelty.

I can't argue with the second point - but what about the high lift? The CR-01? Nobody but Tamiya could over-engineer a chassis like the CR-01.

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What's "killing" the hobby is the lack of vehicles available in kit form, the "me too" product development plan of seeing what other companies are doing rather than taking a chance on something new, and a blurring of the line between toy-grade and hobby-grade. Tamiya re-releases are the last line of defense from all those things.

Mark I have a feeling it's just this generation. You figure when we were growing up we had to make everything or push ourselves along( instead of having a motorized go cart) . Now days the generation has Computers for cell phones and drive thru Starbucks on every corner. It's the "I want it now Generation" so the companies are trying to give the Now Generation what they want. They can take it out of the box and run it. They aren't going to sit down and build something that takes more than an hour! :-)

My .02

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Hey Renken 2000, I had a big long thing to add but it didn't post. I think everyone knows where I stand (For me the hobby is the reres :P ) I just wanted to say I really enjoyed watching all the 3spds going through your showroom I've been about since 06 so seen quite a few of yours. I could share in your joy even when I have never owned a vintage. I wish I had joined sooner to take part with some of the old guard, but hey ho let it go, I say just enjoy it for what it is now I can get involved with discussions with who's here now. I feel bad for you that some of the spark has gone. It's not a nice feeling when a hobby loses it's flavour. I hope it can come back for you soon just what before you sell of everything, you might regret it. I'm sure if you do let them go you will find people to give them a good home here.

Here is what I had first wanted to post I warned you it was long. I hope I don't offend any one. Oh and it might have spelling mistakes so if that makes you queasy please don't read :lol:

I was lurking around here when the Tamiyaclub scorcher was being constructed. I did not hear (or is that see?) anyone saying don't do it they might rere it. Everyone was begging for a 100% faithful reproduction. Some people were then displeased about the changes when it finally came. If the reres are killing it the TC scorcher must have been a smoking gun. Without Tamiyclub members would have never meet or been able to exchange models, would it have been better to never have had this site? You could have been in isolation with your original not known of it's cash value just happy you had an original that you paid what you thought it was worth?

I am very happy with this site, I have watched it develop and change, some have gone to be replaced over the 6-7 years. I enjoy it for what it is and what it was. When I got over my techno fear I joined and subscribed to support the future of the club. Of course my fears became reality when the club got hacked in my first subscriber year. I could have been here for years taking part, with out anything happening. It has given me a lot of joy so it seems right I should support it and perhaps bring some jot to others seeing my some what small collection.

I am here as I am a Tamiya fan and have been since the late seventies, I have only supported Tamiya since the reres, I could not afford to before. With out reres Tamiya would have got no money from me. With support now Tamiya will still be about in the future to bring joy to people. I hope that Tamiya will make some RCs that I think are classics, but as my taste in cars seems to end in the late 80's I hope they use some of the licences they have in the model department and others. We are not only supporting Tamiya but a whole load of others as well thanks to the reres, our small part in helping us out of the global economic crisis is thanks to Tamiya.

I was a born collector, I have collected thing since I can remember. The items value in this case is not so important to me, if I can't afford it I can't have it, if it's free it's no less collectible. The item itself in my hand is a value to me, the memory of how I came to find the item has another value to me. The collections value is the combination of this. If I loss a collection in a fire I could never replace the exact items and memories I would have to have a new collections. That would even be the same if it were a collection of rere's solely. The new ones would not hold the memories of the first collection but would hold a new one. Even if I lost no money the work I put in would be lost forever, I cannot put a price on seeing something I've made but it maybe worthless to some one else.

Back in the days of the yuppies in London city boys pushed the classic car market up to stupid levels by buying well over book price then got burned. No one forced them to but high sell low, of all people they should have known buy low sell high. These were the tail end days of my Tamiya interest.

If I want an orchid, I could buy mass produced one locally or I could go on an adventure and get one in the wild, if I had the choice I would be in the jungle, if I could. Would the cost of the trip the cost of the trip be recouped if I sold the orchid?. Does buying one from the shop forbid me going on an orchid hunt?. What of the hunts were I find no orchids should I not enjoy the adventure?. If someone showed me their shop bought orchid on my return from the jungle would I wish I'd stayed at home. No to all of the above.

I don't think you can compare the experience of buying a rere and hunting an original. Both should make you happy or you shouldn't do it. If I get the urge to and I can afford to I will hunt down some nib og and build them, the joy of the chase the build and owning an original that has been untouched by others floats my boat.

If there was not the risk of losing money you would lose the thrill of finding a cheap deal.

If you sell an item for what you paid for it you have had all your enjoyment for free. I you lose half the value the cost was your enjoyment you have had, if you put a £$ value to happiness. If you make a profit you had free fun and some money. Three is not much in this world you can have free fun with, that you have paid for and hope to break even.

I saw citizen Kane when I was a kid but still managed to lose so many things, so many rosebuds.

Playing 'stock market' with kits should be fun as well or you shouldn't do it. If you intend on selling kits why not just look at it as if you were renting, if you make a profit you were like a squatter and lived rent free for a while.

I you own an OG and it no longer pleases you and market conditions mean you will lose money why not put it away until the market picks up again? If it's not the cash value coming down that displeasing you, how is it possible that it has lost it personal value to you it is the same thing holds the same memories and it will only become more rare.

To take this to extremes you first child is the original combination of your DNA your second is a copy should you love it less as it is second, or love your first less as it's no longer unique. If you have a second family are your new kids not as good as your first.

I feel sorry for anyone that loses love for there hobby, many people find that it can return, or maybe they were looking for a reason to give it up and the reres have given them that excuse.

It's also very funny to me that it seems the most lively participants in these threads are fans of the reres, yet it is always the haters of reres starting them off, even when the traffic is slow on the site, these ones seem to run, perhaps reres owners are getting more joy out of their models so can give more back here. and the size of the rere threads in general shows the club has changed. I wouldn't want to think I forced anyone to leave as I come here being exited about reres, but it seems many have bowed out gracefully which is a shame.

Anyhow hope that has given you something to laugh at.

See ya, skywhelp

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TLDR;

...I had a big long thing to add but it didn't post....

<snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, nsip, npis, sipn, f*#k, d!@m...>

Really? :blink:

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@ djmcnz : I tried to post it about a week ago it didn't work so I copied it. I then thought I may as well post it, after the message directed at Renken 2000, since I had it I had it but gave a fair warning it was long so what's the problem? I do have a talent to annoy people though so I should of expected someone to complain. I did think it would be more of what I said in the post not of the fact I posted something that had failed to post earlier. If I were out to offend I would class that as a trick shot! :P

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@ djmcnz : I tried to post it about a week ago it didn't work so I copied it. I then thought I may as well post it, after the message directed at Renken 2000, since I had it I had it but gave a fair warning it was long so what's the problem? I do have a talent to annoy people though so I should of expected someone to complain. I did think it would be more of what I said in the post not of the fact I posted something that had failed to post earlier. If I were out to offend I would class that as a trick shot! :P

No... it's not a problem (in my eyes) at all! I certainly wasn't offended and didn't intend to create that impression.

I was attempting to highlight the inbuilt paradox in your comment, that's all:

"I had a big long thing to add but it didn't post" - then you proceeded to post the longest post I've ever seen on TC... I though it was quite funny actually... no problem with it whatsoever!

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Cool, I didn't explain myself properly as usual. Things always make more sense to me when I'm writing them than when others read them. I'm glad you pointed it out, I do try to raise a grin but I do seem to rub people up the wrong way sometimes, so I guess my guard is up a little, sorry if a came off too aggressive. Glad you liked the long one. It seemed a shame not to save it as it was so long.

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As someone who used to very active here on Tamiyaclub and collected seriously I'm not sure if Rere's have exactly killed the Hobby but it certainly has changed the landscape and the makeup of active members on TC somewhat. It bugs me that Rere Lovers are very happy to point the finger at those who are frustrated by the Re-releasing saying it's all about the money or the perceived loss in value of models. I don't think that is the case for the majority of those who were serious collectors prior to the big influx of re-released models. The thrill of the chase and collecting hard to find pieces is certainly a big element of the enjoyment of collecting, having something that there are few of or having something pristine when most are broken or abused. While I appreciate that there are differences in the re-releases to the originals to all intense purposes for me my Rough Rider has very little separating it from my Buggy Champ. They more or less look the same and you can see them all over the place now, I don't think my original is really anything special anymore. The flip side of the coin is that Re-re's have reintroduced many 30 - 40 somethings to cars of their past and in turn created a new generation of kids growing up with cars with a nostalgic past. There are many long term members who I no longer see here anymore but there also seems to be a new bunch of people who seem to run their cars now with less concern of breaking parts. Things come and go, wax and wane, peoples interest change and develop, other things become more or less important. I'm neither happy nor sad about the rereleases they just exist.

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BeetleLover, see my post, "What's Annoying" point 2, "What's not chaged" point 3, and "What's awesome" point 6.

I think that covers it. ;) So for you, you've taken the good with the bad (they cancel each other out), accepted the change, and are continuing on.

But yes, the landscape of Tamiya collecting has definitely changed, and TamiyaClub members have come and gone as the hobby changes and the priorities in their lives change. For a few, the change is annoying enough where they leave the hobby for a time, or permanently. For others, it's change for the better, and they become more involved. Better yet, these kits may bring in new people, either totally new hobbyists, or those for whom the cost of entry into classic kits was previously a detractor. Many hobbyists with a nostalgia towards Tamiya RC are in the midst of bringing up children, and so hobbies can take a back seat, or may be abandoned altogether. Some may return when the children are old enough to share the hobby.

On the whole though, a greater problem is that traditional 'hands on' hobbies are taking a back seat to other forms of entertainment, video games and smartphones.

- James

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