Tube Amps vs Solid State

[beefmuffin]

To those of you who know about guitar amps, I propose the following:

Tube Amps : Solid State :: Brushed Motors : Brushless

Tubes are more organic sounding, but they require maintenance. They wear out and need replacing, and can be temperamental. But to those who prefer their warm tone solid state amps won't do. On the other hand, solid state are efficient, require less maintenance, and are able to incorporate more modern digital processing.

DISCUSS!

[redzone]

Disagree, there are no disadvantages when running a sensored brushless over a brushed setup.

Tube avoid have a major tonal advantage over solid state amps, but there really is no benefit running brushed. Unless you like drastically shorter runtimes!

[beefmuffin]

well, some people have described their preference for brushed in terms like enjoying the sound, seeing sparks, even the tempermentality. not to mention the nostalgia factor.

"tonal advantage" is a pretty subjective thing, is it not?

[redzone]

Avoid should have been amp. Stupid phone!

[redzone]

Can't say I've ever heard anyone say any of those things, & I hang around with vintage guys! Nostalgia is the only thing in brushed's favour imo. Nostalgia of hours spent on a comm lathe

[beefmuffin]

Can't say I've ever heard anyone say any of those things, & I hang around with vintage guys! Nostalgia is the only thing in brushed's favour imo. Nostalgia of hours spent on a comm lathe

well - i refer you to this...

http://www.tamiyaclu...showtopic=69420

[alfagta]

hi man,

interesting post,,

like anything in life there are good and bad examples of both , in the world of rc brushless systems have many advantages , more efficient , more speed, easy tuning etc etc,

but with audio ,the humble thermionic vacuum tube has a trick up its sleeve , no crossover distortion leading to far more realistic reproduction of the amplified signal , we can of course use a single ended circuit for transistors too and when done correctly the tranny amp sounds almost identical to a single ended valve amp ,

a good brushed system is almost as good as a good brushless system , in most cases its implementation and execution of design that makes the difference , the winner for me is brushless simply because it did away with motor maintenance and improved run time, with audio i like valves (but cant afford a good one so stick to a mosfet amp built by a friend)

[markbt73]

Sorry to say I'm not feeling your analogy. In guitar amps, tone is everything. Maintenance requirements are not a reason to buy or not buy an amp; the only reason I use solid-state (1995 Fender Princeton 112, which is a GREAT sounding amp for being SS) instead of a vintage Champ or Princeton is cost. My amp cost me $109 used; I could buy 3 or 4 of them for the cost of one nice Champ.

Brushless motors are more like OBD-II engine controls on real cars, if brushed motors on an ESC are older fuel injection/electronic ignition systems, and mechanical speed controls are carburetors/points. The older systems offer no real advantage other than familiarity, and the newer systems, while confusing at first, offer real advantages.

[beefmuffin]

see, we can't get hung up on things like cost because elements like bespoke manufacturing, supply/demand/etc will influence costs differently. we're also in a different point in the progression and possibly the appreciation of the old vs the new technology. there was almost certainly a time when solid state amps were new, rare and more expensive. then they took over the market, economies of scale and manufacturing efficiency brought prices down... but then there was a backlash of people who preferred the old tech. by that point volumes were so low costs went sky high. tubes are made in russia. amps are wired by hand in the US. costs are much higher.

now imagine brushless is adopted ubiquitously, volumes go up, prices go down. manufacturers stop making brushed motors. then people who still want brushed have to buy and restore old ones or buy from boutique shops who wind the motors by hand. costs go up, etc.

so in terms of advantages, remember these things are subjective! try telling a classic car buff that fuel injection is better than the throaty growl of a carburetor engine. there are advantages to be said of solid state amps... as mentioned less maintenance. many have built-in effects. you don't need to baby them and let them warm up and cool down like you do with tubes.

[speedy_w_beans]

I like a little of each.

I like brushed motors, especially silver cans, for the soft start up they provide and the 'feel' they have while drifting. The soft start up and fine control are handy attributes while filming cars.

I like brushless motors for the power and efficiency they provide. There's lots of torque available and they don't need much maintenance -- great for bashers and runners.

So, each type of motor has its place in my collection...

[GregM]

Every solid state amp can be made to behave like a tube amp if desired. No need for tubes in HiFi audio equipment anymore, they can't do anything that a solid state amp can't do better.

Please read also:

The Audio Critic: The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio

TAC Homepage and printed back issues available for free download: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/

However, I like and use both brushed motors and brushless motors in R/C.

[Psylence]

I've always wanted to try brushless, but my first experience was not good. Bought a Traxxas vxl rustler because hey, who cares if it breaks? Ran it around for a day or so and was generally unimpressed, didn't get what the speed thing was all about. Discovered that I had it in training mode.

Well, I surely don't need THAT. Full power mode ON.

Which lasted 5 seconds or less as I went full speed into a curb. Turns out cars don't turn so good when the front wheels are barely in contact with the pavement. To its credit, only one control arm got damaged and was an easy fix.

Still, I'm pretty reluctant to try brushless again; especially with models I actually care about.

[MAD RACER]

Well I know nothing about guitars or amps except car amp which are different i think.

When it comes to brushed & brushless I have done years of racing with both.

Brushed are great but do require maintenance & lots if they are low high performance winds. As the brushed motors were pushed to their limits with the high capacity batteries from the Ni Mih cells they began to become a problem with driveability. Well this was certainly the case in off road. Why, well it came back to the gearing. When you were running a good 10T or lower the drag of the magnets really affected the off power characteristic . I often spun out or had to keep the power on a little With low turn brushed you have to gear the motor to let it rev. I was running small pinions like a 14t with a 9x2 on my XXXT. With brushless regardless of what wind or Turn & gear ratio they always feel the same off power and in fact most brushless esc have a factory default of 5 to 10% of drag.

Then there's the maintenance issue of low turn brushed ( re true the arm & new brushes after 5 runs )

I love my brushed motors and the sound they make screaming at 40K down the straight but brushless is the best hands down.

Silver cans are almost maintenance free & I use them for my old vintage runners & are the controlled motor in the vintage festival.

M/R

[beefmuffin]

you crazy kids seem to have somewhat misunderstood the point of what i was proposing. it isn't about which is better, brushed or brushless, tube or solid state. it didn't take long for it to turn into that - i blame cognitive dissonance! the question is ... without passing judgement on which is "better" since "better" really is subjective ... is the analogy apt?

everyone will have their own opinion on which of the options is "better", or even why they use one or the other. but that isn't what i was getting at.

'<-- OPINION

if you want to know my own perspective on which i prefer - which actually isn't a judgement on objective "betterness" - i prefer brushed. but that's mainly a function of why i like vintage tamiya stuff, and my liking of vintage tamiya stuff has absolutely nothing to do with performance. the qualities the brushless systems have to offer sound fantastic if you want good performance... but in some ways collecting tamiya cars is like collecting typewriters. comparing them to overclocked gaming PCs, the latest tech will "win" hands down in every practical way. but i have no interest in the practical when it comes to my love of RC. so, brushed motors are familiar and nostalgic whereas brushless look like 'technology' to me and don't rev my engines (figuratively speaking!). the twist is that for running my cars i almost always prefer ESCs... but this is a function of the fact that i don't like to get burned by resistors or have my cars go haywire... both of which were parts of my RC experience as a kid that i didn't particularly enjoy. but i DO like the look of MSCs and resistors so i usually add non-functional resistors to my runners and add full MSC setups to my shelfers... since i can't burn my finger on a resistor that never sees an electric current.

on the other hand, i use a nice tube amp most of the time when i play guitar... mainly because i love the tone of its distortion. but it's a finicky beast and i don't always feel like waiting a couple minutes for the valves to warm up after i turn it on before i flip the "rest" switch. which means i ruin the tubes now and again, and when that happens it sounds like a garbage can. not to mention the fact that when i used to gig with it if you so much a bumped it or dropped it too hard the tubes would get messed up - a real problem when you are about to jack into the thing on stage. i had to start bringing a backup solid state amp to shows since you could drop kick it and spill your drink on it and it wouldn't sound any different. so my preference when it comes to tube vs solid state is complicated, but that's because i care about the performance of guitar amps. i don't collect them for nostalgic purposes.

' OPINION -->

OK so now that i've tossed my own subjective evaluations into the lions den, let's try to toss around the original impartial analogy. i think it's pretty accurate, and represents a transition from old to new technology in both arenas, and the benefits and non-benefits that go along with that.

[redzone]

well - i refer you to this...

http://www.tamiyaclu...showtopic=69420

Hmm you proved my point.. Lots of nostalgia there!

Mark runs brushless in his runners

He loves brushed motors though, but yes, for the nostalgia!

[speedy_w_beans]

you crazy kids seem to have somewhat misunderstood the point of what i was proposing. it isn't about which is better, brushed or brushless, tube or solid state. it didn't take long for it to turn into that - i blame cognitive dissonance! the question is ... without passing judgement on which is "better" since "better" really is subjective ... is the analogy apt?

I blame the lack of question and open-ended "DISCUSS!" in the original post. That, and I hated dealing with analogies in my school tests.

[beefmuffin]

I blame the lack of question and open-ended "DISCUSS!" in the original post. That, and I hated dealing with analogies in my school tests.

fair enough. i guess instead of "DISCUS!" i could have said: "What do you all think? Agree / Disagree / 'Go Fish' ?"

[Bigwheels_inc]

I agree with the Brushed and tube approach (its all in the fine tuning) anyone can make something fast but it takes tuning to make it efficient

[Bigwheels_inc]

brushless doesn't mean efficient just means fast LOL

[redzone]

Nah, you can buy slow brushless motors

Runtime is still totes amazeballs over a brushed equivalent though..

[redzone]

double post

[94eg!]

60amp brushed = silver can or sport tuned.

60amp brushless = 8.5T (half a horsepower)

lol

[94eg!]

I agree with the Brushed and tube approach (its all in the fine tuning) anyone can make something fast but it takes tuning to make it efficient

brushless doesn't mean efficient just means fast LOL

Wrong

You will never match the performance + runtime of even a cheap brushless system. My previous post explains it all. This whole thread is like someone saying nickle batteries are better than lipo.

Reminds me of a drafting teacher I once had that tried to tell us that Auto CAD was never going to replace manual drafting. lol

[markbt73]

Still waiting for the firestorm when the first person decides to try "relicing" a re-release Tamiya car... talk about a divisive subject among guitar guys...

[94eg!]

Don't re-re's do that to themselves (as you drive them)?