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JWeston

TC Comps. A couple of ideas.

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I'm probably setting myself riiiiiiiiight up here but I've had a couple of ideas regarding TC Comps.

1 - Disable Comments. Mainly to stop the "you've got my vote" posts.

2 - Make entries anonymous.

3 - Ask that all entries are unique to the competition and not from 'old stock'. This will balance out the effort. Someone could have the 'money shot' already in stock and enter in 60 seconds, whereas someone else could put in hours of effort. Having them unique to the competition will also help with the anonymity. Members can report if they've seen the photo before.

This is all to level out the playing field and encourage more entrants.

Cheers, J

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I really, Like the idea's you've mentioned. Seeing an entry list full of new content and making it anonymous, Is a cracking idea. I think your setting yourself up for an 'TC Idea Award' ;)

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Personally, the comments left make no difference to my vote - I'd have gone for the first two in this comp regardless of the comments anyway - they're both great pics

I don't see the point in making entries anonymous;

If someone wanted to get 'votes from mates' they only have to PM them the link

If someone wanted to make sure they didn't vote for someone in particular by accident they'd only have to delve thru the showroom entries for that model number to find who it belonged to.

There's no way to ensure entries are unique - that'd mean each entrant would have to prove the date the pic was taken - as TC wipes all EXIF info from pics when they're re-sized during upload, it'd mean someone would have to request original copies and validate them

Just because 'all the effort' was made 6 months ago, is the effort diminished? The effort to enter is the same regardless of the photo's age.

I've about 8gb of stuff I've never uploaded to TC - but obviously they're of cars I own or used to own - who's to say/prove that a pic I upload today wasn't taken today? If a photo is resized with software that doesn't retain EXIF detail, there's no way to determine the age of a picture.

It also means that members 'on the other side of the world' might not be able to enter seasonally themed 'sunshine' or 'rain' competitions.

For anyone that remembers the unfortunately mis-timed 'Water' comp right in the middle of the Aussie drought a couple of years back...

Only a few members have won twice or more, but only with either great pics or great concepts

What I would like to see an end of is all the entries showing all the pics that could've been entered, or the 'which one should I choose' entries that seem to be popular now - one comp, one pic, no canvassing :lol:

Your best bet would've been run this all past Netsmith first as some of what you're proposing may not even be possible.

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Twinset, I disagree.

I appreciate that entries cannot be completely anonymous but an anonymous entry would certainly help focus voters on the photo and not the member.

Uniqueness cannot be guaranteed either but I'd be surprised if someone would enter intentionally breaking the rules. I'm not suggesting each entry is heavily vetted but give the users the chance to report it if it breaks the rules.

Canvassing will always happen but influential comments, I feel, don't need to be there.

Regarding hampering entrants due to different seasons. Make the topic something that won't cause this.

My post isn't directly related to the last comp. The best 2 pics were there for all to see. I wanted it to conclude though before I posted up this topic.

Ta, J

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If complete anonymity is not an option, where's the point in partial?

The 'unique' entry just won't work - why is someone's five year old picture any less valid an entry than one taken yesterday if it fits the bill?

As I said, I have loads of pics I have never added to TC, so technically they're all new to you guys, and resizing them on my archaic software them would wipe the EXIF data and give them today's date - this is a totally unenforceable requirement.

Even if I took a brand new pic of an old car, it'd still be in similar settings so the subject and setting would then suggest it's an old pic, no?

The 'seasonal' example wasn't relevant specifically to seasons, but we usually get complaints about the themes or entries.

Take this recent one; 'Roads' - I had several mails about this one; http://www.tamiyaclu...8&id=15376&vb=t

There's no road in that but it has to be taken on trust that there is tarmac under that snow.

There's several bridleways around here with post and wire fencing like that but no sign of tarmac, but short of flying over to see Seth and getting a tour there's no way of knowing for sure.

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"The 'unique' entry just won't work - why is someone's five year old picture any less valid an entry than one taken yesterday if it fits the bill?"

At the minute it's valid but a new 'uniqueness' rule would ensure, as mentioned, that everyone has put in similar effort to win that prize from a clean starting point. I appreciate the admin could get horrendous (sounds like it already is) which is why I'm suggesting the members flag up and prove if there's an issue. Old car, new pic would be fine. Topics where entrants need to do something 'whacky' would help. For example, the 'Exploded View' comp.

It's only a couple of thoughts really, to encourage shyer members to give it a whirl, reduce blatant canvassing, and even up the effort.

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There's been countless posts on the 'fairness' of comps before and whatever regulations are in place, someone always has an objection

If we're only permit new pics, do we wait until all prospective entrants have a good camera or the correct atmospheric/meteorological conditions before we start the comp or give 6 months notice of upcoming comps to give everyone time to prepare?

There's no way members can 'flag up and prove' there's an issue - without each picture being witnessed as taken, by a moderator, how will it ever be proved?

The creative themes, 'exploded view' or 'Mad Max' etc. are fun, but they also draw complaints from people who run their cars and want action pic comps or people that have display models and want concourse-style composition shots.

Bottom line is not everyone can enter every comp so the themes are varied so hopefully a lot of people can enter a lot of them.

My comment on 'old car, new pic' was that in the same setting as 'old car, old pic' how would you prove the difference?

My crawlers usually get photographed at Bradgate Park and touring cars on the tarmac path around the local reservoir - with those two settings, and a finite amount of subjects at my disposal, how can anyone prove the date they were taken with any accuracy?

From my point of view it's not shyness that prevents me from entering, it's not having the time to go out and take new pics (that and the complaints about mods entering the comps :lol: )

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If the official stance would be that TC simply could not enforce 'uniqueness' even if were a relaxed rule to encourage entrants to embrace the comp topic and do something new; then fair enough.

I do think that 'Anonymity' and 'No Comments' would help voters focus on the photo and nothing else. It is a photo comp. I think the majority would do that while the others that want to play Miss Marple and go off to investigate who the photo is from, can do that also.

Just thought of something else. Tactical voting. I think there should be 1 vote and not a 2nd and 3rd vote. I voted tactically in the last comp because I could. 2 clear winners so I picked one and deliberately didn't vote for the other even though it deserved a vote. I appreciate that might make it difficult to have a top 20 though.

:-) J

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I like the idea of disabling the comment and anonymous entries. I agree with TC moderator pointing out old built is just as valid as recent one. Time and effort were put in whether recently or several years ago. However, the model should still exist and same condition as shown in photo, hence may have to do some maintainance before taking the photo for submission.

I also recommend providing TC members a guide line for scoring the model say out of 5 or 10 for the following catagories.

1) creativity / artistic * * * * *

2) resourcefulness / ingenuity * * * * *

3) details * * * * *

4) craftmenship / workmenship * * * * *

5) wow factor * * * * *

Kind of like scoring methods used in Discovery shows.

Mind you no system will be perfect, but at least we should try to make it ideal..

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If the official stance would be that TC simply could not enforce 'uniqueness' even if were a relaxed rule to encourage entrants to embrace the comp topic and do something new; then fair enough.

If entrants know a rule cannot possibly be enforced, why even bother with it?

There's a law against driving whilst using a mobile phone and the implications of getting caught are far greater than losing a TC comp, but I still see loads of drivers every morning driving whilst on the phone.

If a community knows a rule cannot be enforced, why would they follow it?

We (mods) have a hard enough time when we apply rules against 'infractions' that can be proved 100% - whoever volunteers to apply the same deletions etc. to totally unprovable misdemeanours would have to be, in my mind, incredibly stupid

All it'll be is 'is this photo recent?'

'Yep'

Case closed.

As long as one person thinks everyone else is following this rule then that gives them the advantage if they choose not to.

Anonymity, comments and tactical voting don't come into it for me - if I vote I vote once for the pic I like best - that's me done - I can't be bothered to read other peoples thoughts on a photo - If I don't like a pic then no amount of 'wow, gets my vote' is going to change that.

If other people are susceptible to those influences then that's their lookout - a canvassing showroom entry will sway them just as much.

There's plenty of ways for entrants to subtly announce their entry without making their name public; profile pics, forum signatures, avatars, photo watermarks etc. - the members most familiar with theworkings of TC then have the advantage, for instance;

Monday, you get me to add a new avatar.

Tuesday, you enter the pic in a comp.

The two pics may not be immediately linked but all of a sudden everyone that uses the forum knows your comp entry by your avatar, whereas members that don't use the forums don't have that knowledge.

As I said before, your better bet would've been run this all by Chris first, as it may not even be possible anyway.

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I was more interested in the voting public's, the entrant's and TC's thoughts than going straight to Chris in private. I honestly didn't expect TC to go ahead and make any sweeping changes (unless they had MASSIVE support).

From your responses, Twinset, it seems that, from your own experiences, not everyone will take competitions in the right 'club' spirit and will take the Michael. Not something I considered when making the suggestions. My members are very well behaved but they're probably at least a hundredth of the members you have to admin.

It'd be interesting to see what members' thoughts are and maybe TC can consider anything usable from this thread for the future.

One other quick thing - I didn't realise you were to permitted vote just the once. That's something I'd definitely do in the future.

Ta, J

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I was more interested in the voting public's, the entrant's and TC's thoughts than going straight to Chris in private. I honestly didn't expect TC to go ahead and make any sweeping changes (unless they had MASSIVE support).

But if it's simply not possible, wouldn't it have been better to establish that first?

I'd like to come to work in a flying car, but no amount of posts on BMW's website is going to make that happen.

From your responses, Twinset, it seems that, from your own experiences, not everyone will take competitions in the right 'club' spirit and will take the Michael. Not something I considered when making the suggestions. My members are very well behaved but they're probably at least a hundredth of the members you have to admin.

It'd be interesting to see what members' thoughts are and maybe TC can consider anything usable from this thread for the future.

Whether entrants enter 'in the right spirit' or not has no reflection on other people's perception of that entry - the water comp for instance - one entry was a dried up river, but still technically a river - we got loads of complaints about that for a lack of water but it was still a river.

If you take a good read thru the 'News' section where the comps used to be announced, you'll get a good idea of what TC's up against

If you want 'TC' to consider anything, you have to run it past TC, AKA Chris first - he's the guy that knows the restrictions of the site's software etc - getting everyone 'pro' anonymous competitions doesn't help if it can't be implemented.

Currently, every photo on TC is uploaded via a member's showroom and has the membership number of the member that uploaded it in the address.

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The suggestions aren't rocket (or flying car) science but if they are impossible for the backend s/w to deal with then Chris (or you on Chris' behalf) can swiftly say there's no chance.

It's all healthy debate and feedback from members can only be a good thing. Although it's mainly me v thee anyway :-)

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Hi All

All feedback is gratefully received. I understand that everyone just wants to make things better. Heres a bit of rambling background to the world of competitions that go back a lot more years than most people have been members here.

I started them thinking they would be great and everyone would love them and take them in the spirit they were intended and on the whole I'm glad to say thats been the case. That said, with the best will in the world some people have pointed out various 'changes' they would like to see over the years and I've tried to accomodate them but I'm beginning to think that actually its making things a little worse and deviating what the simple and fun idea that they were meant to be.

We started off with just 'enter a great picture' - but we had people point out that wasn't fair on those without 'great cameras'

I started themes to try and get around this and worded it such that voters would not vote on quality of photo alone - but then we had people point out the themes were not fair depending on peoples person circumstances and geography, even though I tried to make them as broad as possible.

Originally you entered a showroom entry which could be many photos - some users didn't think that was fair based on the amount of time they had available to them, so we introduced the one photo rule

Some people enhance their photos colour-wise and cropping, some did even more extreme editing - others don't think thats fair based on their software and skill levels, so a couple of rules were introduced for this.

Because of vague themes it meant we had examples of the same photo being entered into multiple competitions - again we introduced some rules for that too.

Some people said it wasn't fair because they just didn't take good photos, so we added 'guess the random' number competitions with no photos involved at all.

The list goes on. Thats not a moan or complaint from me, just showing how things have changed and its now got me feeling that we've ended up with so many rules its just over complicating something which should just be very simple. To the point where I had been thinking of moving in completely the opposite way to what you were suggesting John, sorry :)

I want to get back to just

- a theme (maybe without even a description)

- picture cannot have been entered in a competition before (which is about as much as we can realistically check)

Why I think this could work is because if I look back at the voting I don't think we've ever had a winner that has not deserved it. The voters decide if the winner should win, wether thats because of the skill involved, or the amount of effort put in. Anyone thats 'stretched' the rules either intentionally or not has never one as people just see through it. I've never seen any indication that someone has ranked highly in the results because of favourable comments or by calling on their mates to vote for them.

Personally I'd love to think that people go out and take new shots each time but I understand thats not always going to be the case and, as Twinset points out, its not really something I can enforce. Which is why I want to simplify and put things in the hands of those voting. As a voter 'something new' is definitely something I look for in an entry, as is sticking to 'the spirit of the theme'

Cheers

Chris

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I'm happy with that. A much better response than if I'd contacted Chris privately and clear for all to see, who want to see.

I did fancy knowing what other members thought but Andy and Chris have done a swift job of concluding it before Europe lunchtime and before the US get up! :)

I'm done and think the comment from Chris is clear and fair.

Thanks, J

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Hi John

Its not really meant as a 'conclusion' as such, if people want to throw comments in then it all welcome and will be read. I just wanted to give the debate a bit of 'background'

In terms of number of entries I'm not really sure what drives that, the prize obviously helps, but that aside its quite up and down. I used to worry about it but now I don't. If we only get three entries then fine, better chance for all involved - i'm happy we are not physically excluding the masses from entering.

Cheers

Chris

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Just my 5 cents on this. I've entered a few competitions, and haven't had the time to go out and take a photo specifically for the competition. I entered with a spirit of 'find a photo that fits the subject, bung it in and see what happens'. I sometimes take pics when I go out run my cars, but generally not. (Mostly it's the tanks that get photo'd). Also difficult to drive and take photos at the same time :D .I admit that I don't put much effort into my photos, but that shouldn't preclude me from entering, it just means I'm in with a very outside chance of winning. I think my photos just highlight the extra effort put in by other people. I don't see a problem with entering a 'stock' photo as long as it's appropriate to the theme. At the end of the day it's supposed to be a bit of fun, and the more rules are applied to it the more people will try and bend the rules to their advantage. At least everyone gets a vote. It would be a lot simpler for Chris to say he has final say, whatever he likes the most wins, no complaints will be entered into........

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i do like the idea of anonymous voting and no comments. mainly just to focus on the spirit of the task at hand. but it's probably not worth doing any special coding to accomplish this. and to respond to TWINSET on the efficacy of anonymous voting, yes there would definitely be a loophole way to discover who is behind each entry, but this would involve enough effort to discourage people from side-stepping the rules. people's laziness should not be underestimated!

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I'd thought I would throw my 2 cents in here.

What I think jweston was saying and I agree is that the pics are posted without user names and comments for the following

1- to stop favoritism etc

2- there is no need for comments to sway voting etc

The comments can be added to the winners congrats ???

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i do like the idea of anonymous voting and no comments. mainly just to focus on the spirit of the task at hand. but it's probably not worth doing any special coding to accomplish this. and to respond to TWINSET on the efficacy of anonymous voting, yes there would definitely be a loophole way to discover who is behind each entry, but this would involve enough effort to discourage people from side-stepping the rules. people's laziness should not be underestimated!

It's not so much people's laziness in not bothering to find out the identity of the entrant, more entrants trying to bypass or accidentally bypassing the anonymity

Plus, the anonymity effectively excludes old photographs as the older the pic the more chance it has of being recognised, thereby bypassing anonymity

If everyone else is anonymous and one person isn't because the had to use an old pic - what happens then? we remove their entry because their busted knee means they can't go out and take pictures?

So someone not being totally anonymous would be just as big an issue.

In the past, pretty much every aspect of a photo-based comp has been complained about

Camera quality - only the rich will win etc.

Interpretation of theme

Action shots excluding shelf queens, concourse shots excluding bashers etc.

Use of image manipulation - "not everyone can afford/learn to use Photoshop"

Locational or seasonal advantage - We had a Mad Max comp - there were genuine complaints before voting that the Aussie entries would have the edge - as fate would have it an Aussie did win, but with a hellish good pic - What won that comp - pic or nationality?

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:lol: Just found this in a thread with a lot of 'discussion';

An interesting idea, but I'm afraid anonymous entries is not going to happen in the short term.

Its a chunk programming effort for something we currently do not have enough proof thats its actually a problem at the moment.(so far all the first prizes have gone to different people - with the exception of boa boa who as far as I know interact very little with other club members, infact top 3 places seem pretty random) It would be very hard to mod to as the entries also includes the descriptions, so we would have to have a whole bunch of rules there too with regard to whats allowed to be said etc etc Also like you said we would need a whole bunch of rules about posting a none anonymous item in your showroom the same day of the entry (so giving a duplicate/double exposure) and if you don't allow that, what if they post in their showroom the day before entering etc etc etc - whole things sounds like a bit of an headache.

May revisit it in the future when I have more time, or if it looks like it is becoming an issue. At least it would be one less thing for people to complain about.

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Simple way to do it is to have a list of who voted for what picture. Thats better than anonymous, and that data is already there.

Personally I take the competitions as a bit of fun, I dont think I got a single vote in the last competiton, despite spending a few hours building a crazy wooden plynth to hold my model. I was please with the photo and enjoyed the positive comments I got. The only thing I would like is a final list of positions and the amount of votes they got.. Cause at the moment I cant event see where I came in the competion (Seem's I have come even further back than last :) )

Lets keep it fun, the last winner was a fantastic picture, but then so were many others in the list, I enjoyed viewing them all when I went to vote.

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