Turns, Teeth and TL-01 - Can I be scientific?

[30YrsL8r 97]

Some of you may have seen my thread about turning a TL-01 into a 4WD Wild Willy 2 (http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=69530&p=497523)

I've now taken the motor/pinion combo as far as I can with the parts I already have (silver can/15T) so it looks like I need to buy something (again, as my wife would point out) to control the heat of the motor.

As I wrote in my thread, the current setup is pretty mental. Backflips on full throttle and forward rolls on full brake. This leads me to believe I can afford more turns on the motor (I assume all my inherited silver cans are 27T).

How far should I go? Will 35 turns still allow me to wheelie but reduce the heat? What about when I take it off-road; surely the heat will be even more fierce, perhaps even with a 35 turn motor?

Can I work out from the original WW2 gearing what number of turns I should have? I might be able to fit a 14T pinion using the motor holes I made for the 15T one (0.3mm difference in radius).

Perhaps a heat sink and fan will control the temperature, whether I continue with 27 turns or try for more.

Any input appreciated; I don't like spending money, and I hate wasting it

[mr crispy 2292]

The HPI 35T motor is pretty cheap and has an in-built fan to help cooling. I have one on my TL01B with a 19T pinion, it still eventually gets hot but nothing like when I ran with a silver can. It's fast enough to get some air on jumps and will flip itself over on hard and fast turns. I run it with a simple clip on heat sink but I don't think it makes much difference, I think a fan would help there.

I also have a TL01 4x4 which runs with a budget 70T motor from blacksmiths. I've not had the chance to take it for a long run but it seems to stay reasonable cool even with 96mm tyres. It's more of a scale speed trail runner but will wheelie with a bit of reverse and will also roll over at full speed.

Hope that's of some help mate.

Nic

P.S. I'm gonna give your pinion mod a go at some point. I was thinking to fit a metal plate over the inspection cover and drill the motor mount holes through that to make it a little more robust and hopefully double as a heat sink.

[kontemax 1620]

My opinion is you must rethink all motor mount to have a better gear ratio. A 13T steel pinion gear would be the right choice probably.

These are some solution I'll use:

- Adjustable hand made motor mount.

- Gear reduction unit.

- A couple of pinion gears for spacing the motor from gears (I suppose a more little pinion gear is not allowed because it will not touch the spur gear. Two pinions could be the solution but the motor must run reverse).

Max

[bromvw 743]

Some of you may have seen my thread about turning a TL-01 into a 4WD Wild Willy 2 (http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=69530&p=497523)

I've now taken the motor/pinion combo as far as I can with the parts I already have (silver can/15T) so it looks like I need to buy something (again, as my wife would point out) to control the heat of the motor.

As I wrote in my thread, the current setup is pretty mental. Backflips on full throttle and forward rolls on full brake. This leads me to believe I can afford more turns on the motor (I assume all my inherited silver cans are 27T).

How far should I go? Will 35 turns still allow me to wheelie but reduce the heat? What about when I take it off-road; surely the heat will be even more fierce, perhaps even with a 35 turn motor?

Can I work out from the original WW2 gearing what number of turns I should have? I might be able to fit a 14T pinion using the motor holes I made for the 15T one (0.3mm difference in radius).

Perhaps a heat sink and fan will control the temperature, whether I continue with 27 turns or try for more.

Any input appreciated; I don't like spending money, and I hate wasting it

If you have the space to fit one I would consider a rc4wd reduction unit . Their available in a range of ratios from over driven 1:2 right down to 4:1 . They only add 18mm to the length of a standard 540 size motor but would give you some real choice on pinions . As a benchmark I have a 3;1 reduction and a 55t crawler motor in my cc-01 . Its runs for around 3 hours on a 5000 2s lipo and the motor is still cool enough to touch . Maybe a 35t with 1:2 overdrive would cure your problems ? The 35t would run fairly cool but you would certainly have speed . Only issue might be reduced torque .

[30YrsL8r 97]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I also have a TL01 4x4 which runs with a budget 70T motor from blacksmiths.....will wheelie with a bit of reverse and will also roll over at full speed.

That certainly gives me something to go on. The WW2 wheels seem to be about 110mm, so I imagine I might still get standing-start wheelies up to 45 turns with all the weight I have high up at the back.

My opinion is you must rethink all motor mount to have a better gear ratio. A 13T steel pinion gear would be the right choice probably.
These are some solution I'll use: Adjustable hand made motor mount.

This is one I've been giving some thought to, Max - just a 5mm-or-so plate to mount onto the motor with various holes for pinions, then put the bolts through the chassis and into the plate. Problem is you wont be able to adjust the motor position with the pinion engaged with the spur; it would be trial and error. Still, a cheap option and minimal mods to the chassis.

If you have the space to fit one I would consider a rc4wd reduction unit.

I do have the space, as it happens, because I'm using my modified front wheels on the back, which means they clear the motor easily. I'm not sure I understand the principle, though. Doesn't a 2:1 version make a 27 turn into, effectively, a 54 turn?

[kontemax 1620]

If you wanna be scientific you can calculate the gear ratio.

You can count the WW2 gear teeth and calculate the ratio then do the same thing with the TL01.

Then you can compare both situations and choose correctly the right pinion gear for the TL01 using the WW2 as reference.

RC4WD reduction unit: this is the thing I was talking about. But I believe that these 18 mm more can't allow the space between motor and wheel.

In my opinion the solution will be an hand made work on the chassis with some sort of motor mount or double pinion gear.

A crawler motor with high number of wire turns is a possible solution but is not the best solution. The correct gear ratio is always the best solution.

Max

[kontemax 1620]

A motor plate should not be enough, it depends for the motor space on the chassis (I don't own the TL01 so I can't help with this problem properly). In fact smaller is the pinion, closer is the motor to the spur gear.

So probably you will need a double pinion solution.

Another matter is the motor holes in this handmade plate. Why holes? Why not one hole and one slot? Making the right motor position is not so difficult, after some attempts you will understand how to do. At the end a 3 mm aluminum plate is more than enough for the motor plate.

Max

This is one I've been giving some thought to, Max - just a 5mm-or-so plate to mount onto the motor with various holes for pinions, then put the bolts through the chassis and into the plate. Problem is you wont be able to adjust the motor position with the pinion engaged with the spur; it would be trial and error. Still, a cheap option and minimal mods to the chassis.

I do have the space, as it happens, because I'm using my modified front wheels on the back, which means they clear the motor easily. I'm not sure I understand the principle, though. Doesn't a 2:1 version make a 27 turn into, effectively, a 54 turn?

[30YrsL8r 97]

You can count the WW2 gear teeth and calculate the ratio then do the same thing with the TL01.

Then you can compare both situations and choose correctly the right pinion gear for the TL01 using the WW2 as reference.

I'll start researching.

A motor plate should not be enough, it depends for the motor space on the chassis (I don't own the TL01 so I can't help with this problem properly).

Why holes? Why not one hole and one slot? Making the right motor position is not so difficult, after some attempts you will understand how to do.

I needed to modify the chassis to get the 15T pinion to touch the spur, Max, so you're right; 13T will need more or it's double pinion time.

Hole and slot for the plate is a great idea, too. Thanks.

I'm actually thinking about how to make the spur bigger now!

[Percymon 2183]

Personally I'd try a 45T motor - it will be sufficiently different to the 27T silver can to have a chance of sorting the temperature issue, and it should then be easy to judge whether a 35T would suit as a later upgrade, if still required.

With RC4WD motors under a tenner, its a better buy than meddling about with a heatsink with fan built in

[mr crispy 2292]

With the motor plate idea I mentioned, I figured I'd make a mock up out of clear plastic so it would fit into the motor cover area on the left hand side of the chassis (the bit you can take off and see how the gears mesh). Fix one screw in the motor and rotate around it trying out different pinions to work out what plastic needs removing and where the other motor mount screw needs to go.

By drawing a line from the fitted motor screw, through the centre of the pinion and extending it the other side you should be able to predict where to put the 2nd hole. A curved slot would also work for multiple pinions but you may have probs keeping the motor from slipping with the torque.

Once satisfied I would use the clear plastic as a template to make the proper metal plate.

[30YrsL8r 97]

Just looked at the manuals and created a spreadsheet.

WW2 Final Drive Ratio is 18:1 with the kit-supplied 18T pinion

TL-01 FDR is 7.5:1 with the kit-supplied 19T pinion (my 15T pinion mod changed that to 9.5:1)

I find it quite surprising it made such a difference to the wheelie but, now I think about it, I'm using a different silver can.

They say you should only change one thing at a time. I might go back to the other motor and compare. Even so, small wonder the motor gets hot!

[mr crispy 2292]

It's the wheel diameter that you're fighting. I tried out Blackfoot 3 tyres on my TL01B... I could've had a BBQ on that motor

[30YrsL8r 97]

Thanks to a comment by dyahipfakta (http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39344&p=497635), I had the idea to pull an old cordless drill apart.

Inside I found a Johnson motor of the required diameter, but a little longer than a standard 540. I think this size is called a 550.

The numbers I found on the outer shell didn't yield any useful results on google, so I decided to give it a go.

When just connected to the ESC, it seemed to rev fine but didn't have that screaming noise at full throttle that I've heard from others.

When I put the Johnson in my Willy (uh oh) it just fitted and the tyre avoids it at all positions of it's (considerable, thanks to wear and tear) play.

Running it around the garage (it's too dark for me to play outside), up some makeshift 1 in 1 ramps and with the odd short wheelie, the motor got no more than warm.

We'll see how my Willy holds up when I give it a good bashing in the morning....

[dyahipfakta 50]

I did similar in my emaxx with drill motors they were 600 size and were great. I got bored though as you do and ditched them in favor of a dewalt motor which is I think an 820. Drill motors are great for rc just add some caps flatten the drive shaft for a pinion and away you go.

[bromvw 743]

Thanks for the input, guys.

That certainly gives me something to go on. The WW2 wheels seem to be about 110mm, so I imagine I might still get standing-start wheelies up to 45 turns with all the weight I have high up at the back.

This is one I've been giving some thought to, Max - just a 5mm-or-so plate to mount onto the motor with various holes for pinions, then put the bolts through the chassis and into the plate. Problem is you wont be able to adjust the motor position with the pinion engaged with the spur; it would be trial and error. Still, a cheap option and minimal mods to the chassis.

I do have the space, as it happens, because I'm using my modified front wheels on the back, which means they clear the motor easily. I'm not sure I understand the principle, though. Doesn't a 2:1 version make a 27 turn into, effectively, a 54 turn?

sorry I was meaning 1:2 ratio = a overdrive . 27 WOULD effectively be a 13.5 turn ! Use a 35t though and a 3:1 reduction and you would have cool running with a lot of torque .

[SKIPP 0]

Just a thought but you might try a blackfoot motor mount.Thats how Tamiya

changed the gear ratio for larger wheels on the orv chassis.

might not be perfect but you could experiment with it than

make your own slightly modified unit out of aluminum.

I,ve done it to change a wild willy to a willies wheeler conversion,but

just the opposite. to use a larger pinion.(with smaller wheels)

just throwing out ideas.

Don't have a tl01 so not sure if its similar set up to wr02 chassis.

forgot to mention might have done some creative dremeling.

not sure was quite awhile ago.

also larger motor depth might cause it to hit larger tires ?

[30YrsL8r 97]

Well, I've been lucky; I just ran the WWTL01 on the sloping grass in my back garden (proper stress test) and, whilst it got pretty warm after about 10 minutes, I was able to comfortably hold my finger on the motor.

I don't think the top speed is quite as high as the silver cans, but it's certainly fast enough! Wheelies well, even on grass and with a rolling start. In fact, most of the time the front wheels were barely touching the ground (so much for 4WD) so if you want to turn you have to come off the throttle.

Hard braking from high speed still forward flips it (got two complete rolls out of it), which is fun on the grass. Can corner very hard without rolling, but you can force it over with too much brake and a hard steering lock.

The annoying thing is, I can't tell you what the specification of the motor is. It's a Johnson that came out of a Black & Decker KC96V 9.6v cordless drill and has the numbers 66710 and 372841 on the side.