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VINTAGE HILUX FAN

SRB's Was the Super Champ the best?

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Hi Guys, First time starting a thread on here. I've been thinking since having an afternoon running my SRB's round the garden. Was the SuperChamp really the best out of the bunch? I find on the grass it has huge understeer due to such a weighty rear end and no diff with the spiked tyres. It also seems much bouncier on the rear end than the others. I run the shock with minimal oil in it but it just doesnt seem to absorb anything. Its almost like the spring rate is way to strong for the weight of the car.

Of course the SRBs are designed to be run on loose surfaces like sand but I find the best around the garden are the scorchers, they still get grip roll but they tend to steer from the rear which is my driving style for everything rather than the rough riders which dig in more and violently flip over. The ranger is kind of in the middle I find but I still really enjoy driving it.

So I thought I'd ask you lot, whats the best handling SRB out of the bunch in relatively stock form and did Tamiya get it right with the Super Champ?

Cheers Marcus

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I'd say it wasn't. The heavier suspension was just too complex.

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Heavier or not, the Champ's rear suspension is way too bouncy. That, no matter what shock fluid you're using. I'd say the "FS" patented system not only was ugly, but most of all it was a failure. Should have been a lesson for Tamiya not to sacrifice their raison d'ĂȘtre for performance. It was a honest approach, though.

Still, I am not sure about you guys, but what I love the most about Tamiya is the fact that it started as a scale plastic models' company.

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Heavier or not, the Champ's rear suspension is way too bouncy. That, no matter what shock fluid you're using. I'd say the "FS" patented system not only was ugly, but most of all it was a failure. Should have been a lesson for Tamiya not to sacrifice their raison d'ĂȘtre for performance. It was a honest approach, though.

Still, I am not sure about you guys, but what I love the most about Tamiya is the fact that it started as a scale plastic models' company.

Well Im glad Im not the only one with a bouncy champ. It just doesnt seem to work although they didnt know it at the time probably but its now quite a collectable and unusual model. I agree the realism in most of there rc models particularly some of the early stuff is fantastic.

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By the way, I don't believe the SC suspension was complex in any way. It actually stands out as simpler than the original SRB one. I mean, torsion bars, and a pair of scaled down dampers compared to a larger mono-shock with an external hydraulic fluid reservoir attached with plastic zip ties. That doesn't seem complex, quite the contrary.

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Interesting topic for me .

I plan to buy a SRB one day as it's one model that I don't have in my collection and the Rough Rider was the first r/c car that I ever drove so it makes sense.

I always said if Tamiya re re the S/Champ I will save my pennies to get one as I always thought it was the best SRB??

So the rear suspension set up is no good. That leads to me next question what is the best suspension on a SRB??

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Interesting topic for me .

I plan to buy a SRB one day as it's one model that I don't have in my collection and the Rough Rider was the first r/c car that I ever drove so it makes sense.

I always said if Tamiya re re the S/Champ I will save my pennies to get one as I always thought it was the best SRB??

So the rear suspension set up is no good. That leads to me next question what is the best suspension on a SRB??

If you're after running these type of cars as I presume, then no stock suspension system will do for you. You'll definitely have to walk down the customization street, Mark. :)

Remember, these cars have no differential, hence the driving feeling will sure surprise you. I mean, after being running all types of high-end RC racing cars the last years ;):D

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I always thought people nowadays expect too much from the old SRB cars (and re-res for that matter). You guys need to gauge these cars for what they were back in the day: the first off-road RC vehicles in the history of the hobby. I mean, this is like expecting a Ford A to perform nearly as good as one of nowadays smart city cars, if you know what I mean.

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Mongoose1983 I agree they are true classics even the rere's the design is over 30years old still. Think of the comparison of some of the real cars from that era against this modern rubbish. Especially the British leyland cars over here. But for me, a lover of all things wheeled and old srb's are awesome who cares if they don't drive all that well just look at them. Amazing!

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Mad racer: well I use two different types of shocks of my main srb runners (both rere's) Losi mini t shocks work very well on the rear and stop so much squat and add a bit of damping. The others I use are m chassis shocks, these can be better but just don't look as cool. They're shorter and so don't allow so much posi camber gain under no load so the tyres stay flatter when cornering. I leave the torsion bars in but have them quite soft and run the front on full ride height, no droop by just tweaking the front springs and I find that works very well and enables me to enjoy my srb's on all different surfaces.

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Mongoose1983 I agree they are true classics even the rere's the design is over 30years old still. Think of the comparison of some of the real cars from that era against this modern rubbish. Especially the British leyland cars over here. But for me, a lover of all things wheeled and old srb's are awesome who cares if they don't drive all that well just look at them. Amazing!

That's what I was trying to say. You have to appreciate these old cars for what they are. They're not the best racers, but back in the 70's, they were the only RC cars to survive some serious off-road punishment, pretty much like the models they were modeled after. They are good runners. You can not expect they to work as good as the latest RC offroaders. The real car industry has developed in how long, a century? The RC industry has developed like 1000 years in only three decades.

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Well, at least from what I could tell, the Super Champ could keep consistent rear contact patches on the ground with those balloon rear tires instead of the squarer shapes of the Sand Blaster 915s or even the Padlatraks. I thought it was brilliant - that way, any camber changes under compression would not result in handling changes as severe as those on the other SRBs, since the same amount of tire would remain touching the running surface.

However, it seems that the Super Champ had trouble keeping its rear wheels on the ground in the first place!

The F.F.P.D.S. somewhat reminds me of the later Hotshot's rear suspension setup - it appears the rear wheels have some degree of dependence on one another when it comes to damping forces, i.e.: if one wheel is in full compression, the other will experience stiffer damping forces if it too is compressed, which is not prevalent on cars with two dampers and fully-independent rear suspension.

That being said, it is possible that the Super Champ was the best SRB - but that did not say too much relative to where RC is today... Though as pointed out: it is better to appreciate those buggies for what they represented back then, and what they mean today as history.

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If you're after running these type of cars as I presume, then no stock suspension system will do for you. You'll definitely have to walk down the customization street, Mark. :)

Remember, these cars have no differential, hence the driving feeling will sure surprise you. I mean, after being running all types of high-end RC racing cars the last years ;):D

I agree 100% Erich .

Thanks for the advice Vintage Hilux Fan

I guess that's why I haven't got a SRB yet as I know how poor they are to drive on a race track. In saying that any SRB is at home on the beach and sand dunes. I really dig how good they look in their own environment.

I like to get the best out of any vintage chassis but just feel Tamiya could have done a lot more in R&D on their cars. Instead they just punched out other models. The Frog is a good example. It came from the Brat and improved on the Frog but could have done a Frog evo. The Fox was never improved on but it had so much more potential.

Tamiya if built right and some well executed mods are very competitive as many of us are doing. :)

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I think that a lot of it has to do with tires. The Scorcher's paddles don't offer much grip on any surface except loose sand, and then only forward traction, so they allow the rear end to slide around more. The Super Champ's spikes offer a ton of grip on grass or "vacant lot" type surfaces, including side bite, which combined with a lack of a diff, means that it wants to plow on ahead regardless of where you point it. The Sand Blasters are somewhere in between, and also work pretty well on paved surfaces.

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[...] The Sand Blasters are somewhere in between, and also work pretty well on paved surfaces.

The Sand Blasters also last much longer than both, the paddlatrak and Frog's tires!

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I think that a lot of it has to do with tires. The Scorcher's paddles don't offer much grip on any surface except loose sand, and then only forward traction, so they allow the rear end to slide around more. The Super Champ's spikes offer a ton of grip on grass or "vacant lot" type surfaces, including side bite, which combined with a lack of a diff, means that it wants to plow on ahead regardless of where you point it. The Sand Blasters are somewhere in between, and also work pretty well on paved surfaces.

Yes 100% agreed tyres seem to matter the most. I was once told by a 1/12 national driver that the right tyres are 90% of setting the car up. Although I like to run my SRB's with the tyres the would've original come with so I was just asking other peoples opinion on what drives the best.

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I think that a lot of it has to do with tires. The Scorcher's paddles don't offer much grip on any surface except loose sand, and then only forward traction, so they allow the rear end to slide around more. The Super Champ's spikes offer a ton of grip on grass or "vacant lot" type surfaces, including side bite, which combined with a lack of a diff, means that it wants to plow on ahead regardless of where you point it. The Sand Blasters are somewhere in between, and also work pretty well on paved surfaces.

Spot on mark - running on grass the sole will give the greatest grip and the paddles the least. On loose dirt it'll be similar; given most racing bitd was on dirt then the spikes were the best option for traction. The SC suspension was supposedly the ultimate development if the SRB series, and from an engineering point it is , but it does add even more weight the the extreme rear of the chassis and hence cornering under power will result in lots of under steer.

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I have many fond memories of running my completely stock Super Champ down the barn driveway at my old house at full speed. The driveway was dirt with some bits of mulch that washed down the hill, plus grass in some spots and a few small tree roots popping up through the dirt resulting in small makeshift "jumps". Exactly like the box said "Super Fast, Super Stable", the car plowed through the driveway with no trouble at all. The rear wheels did some bouncing but with the sheer weight of the car, the great suspension travel plus the soft air-filled rear spiked tires and lack of a rear diff, it never lost traction or control and just WENT. To my young eyes at the time (I was 13), it was so much like a real car in terms of performance and handling that I couldn't wait for the battery to finish charging (15-20 minutes is a long time to wait when you're 13!).

I learned very early on to keep speeds low on asphalt (flipped it many times when the rear wheels folded over in a corner). Broke more plastic ties than I can remember, so I switched to copper wire I stole from an old electrical transformer that I unwound.

Everything you guys said above about the Super Champ is true. I would say that the chassis as a whole wasn't too bouncy, but you could say the rear wheels themselves bounced quite a bit as they tried to cope with the undulating terrain. The rear shock piston was not large enough to damp very well. It never matter to me because I wasn't a racer and I always thought it looked cool looking at it at full speed from a sideways perspective because the chassis was practically floating through the air while the tires and suspension took the punishment.

I had a set of Rough Rider rear wheels and tires and they made the rear end feel very different on dirt, not just with traction, but how the whole rear suspension responded to bumps. The taller and stiffer sidewalls of the RR tires forced the suspension to work harder whereas the stock spikes compressed and aided in absorbing the minor stuff a little bit better. I really think Tamiya designed the SC suspension for those spike tires.

Just reading this thread made me remember the fun times I had with my Super Champ, so thanks for that.

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Since this is the internet, and the internet supposedly "never forgets", I'll add my thoughts to this old post.

Back in 1982-1983, there were kids around with sand rovers, f150's, sand scorcher's, and later in that period super champ.

Having previously been amazed and wanting to own nikko style rc cars, but nver getting any, despite numerous additions to Christmas wishlists over the years, seeing these things was totally amazing! The sand rover was perhaps the ultimate in realistic design, and a leisure vehicle to boot, so beautiful, even if it just bounced over the grass for a few minutes before the battery was out, and the car and owner was never seen again.

Later seeing the superchamp, with its mysterious oil bottle. As a small kid I asked the older owner if this perhaps was a "gasoline car".

They just laughed and generally ignored me, but to this day I vividly remember the distinct whine from the gearbox, when he eventually light it up, and the sound of those super grippers negotiating hard with the asphalt determining who's the boss. Unmistakably recognisable with the excessive positive camber, this rc car was definitely unique, and quite a mystery to me at the time why its design was the way it was.

Everybody in the "know" at the time, agreed the super champ was the "best" rc car. And perhaps it was for a brief time. It definitely looked the best, lots of shiny metal on display, mystery oil bottle, window nets, metal roof.

In comparison seeing the hornet a few years later, it seemed like a cheap toy joke,where the SC was serious business. I love the hornet for its simplicity, but it can never take the place of the full on, pro-grade effort of the SC.

A few years later I managed to buy a complete used sand scorcher, and not knowing about its popularity at the time, cut my teeth on trying to stay competetive among friends with it, as they increasinly moved into frogs, hornets, hot shots, pajeros and willy's. The sand scorcher, and by extention super champ, stayed competetive in my circles of leisure racing until one got the porche 959. At that point there was no way for the srb to keep up anymore, and I moved on to more serious hardware.

At that point my srb was running technigold, numerous upgrades and tweaks, while others where mostly stock.

The easiest way to avoid rollovers on any srb, which is especially needed when with a hotter motor, was to install sand blaster front tires.

Then if run without the body, it definitely gave the frog a run for the money, hearing those frog gears crunching up as it was driven as hard s the owner dared. A sand scorcher without body is close to a superchamp in handling and performance, and its quite an amazing difference, as the scorcher body makes it really top heavy.

The super champ had a huge benefit over the frog, in that it could readily take any major hopups and huge power increases without breaking. The frog owners would consider a black motor, but with gears already self destructing with stock silvercan, saw best not too.

With the right hopoups a super champ could stay in the game, and simply overpower the frogs. The hornets, while faster, could not stay on the track, and ended on its roof most of the time, as everyone else have pointed out. Not anywhere clise to ideal handling, the champ behaved differently than the frog, but not necessarily worse. Champ was stable where frog was bouncy, both top heavy. If suspension arms where properly ziptied for a lower stance, the champ took on turns far better than full height.

The frog owners would leave the track with broken gears, popped half shafts, or cracked geabox housing, while he champ would stay in the game, with broken bumper, cracked body, but still going. It would win by being able to be last man standing, and being consistent.

Even in its day, the super champ was like hens teeth though, and I believe thats why there isnt more history of it being competetive against the frog, which was afterall, far cheaper, and much more commonplace.

I think if there was made a tamiya offroad rc race series, with 1979 to 1984, the super champ would be able to show, true to it's name, its superiority once again.

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Interesting read. I'm curious as to what country these observations are from. My experiences in the US were a bit different. In my little corner of the world, the original SRBs were the first competitive cars. There were various hop-ups, some homemade, to increase their effectiveness. By the time the Super Champ was released, there was competition from other manufacturers. The Scorpion was the new hot ticket at the time. The Super Champ was rare because SRB racers already had their cars all hopped up. Newcomers generally chose the Scorpion or the new Frog. The Super Champ seemed to be Tamiya's nod to the Scorpion competition while getting a little more mileage out of the chassis before the OVRs took over. I completely agree the Super Champ was built like a tank compared to the Frog which had a bunch of gearbox issues. What the Frog quickly developed in the US was a huge aftermarket to fix all its flaws including the all-important Thorp diff. Frogs were wildly popular in my area until the RC10 came along and litterally ended EVERYTHING. Except for a few diehard Scorp and Frog fans, the track was awash with gold anodised aluminum RC10 tubs in the pits come race day. From what I've gathered, RC10s weren't everywhere in record numbers like the were in the states when they first came out. Personally, I agree and prefer the solid heft of the Super Champ over the Frog which was terribly bouncey out of the box.

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"Best" is such a relative term...(best at what exactly?)

And I respect racing history. But ultimately competition racing was only relevant to the 0.1% of owners who raced in competitions. I never raced, and never knew anybody who did. And nobody I knew, seemed to know anybody who did, apart from in our backyards. And yes I know a lot of people raced competitively. But consider the amount of people in the world, or even the amount who owned cars...

To me, the Super Champ was one of the best at being a technical marvel of vintage ideas. The only R/C model to ever have an on-board oil reserve, and I don't care what anyone says... as a hobbyist, it's still one of the most fun ideas I've ever seen. And I'll take interesting and cool and weird - over "race winning" - any day. Because ultimately, winning races is kinda what drove all the "interesting" out of R/C buggies, as perfect performance turned out to favour sleek, simple and light cars. Rather than complex, over-engineered and heavy cars.

The Super Champ was also quite good at 5 metre cliffs.

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H.

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Very true Hib. If I didn't have a track nearby, I'd never know what racers were doing back in the day. Almost everybody was a basher. I didn't mean to slight the Super Champ. Despite the chassis design being a bit dated by the time, Tamiya did honestly go through with addressing actual concerns and shortfalls of the original SRBs. Being rare in my parts as well gave it some mystique as well. I love the oil reserve/monoshock design and Tamiya's simple theory behind it. Keep the drive wheels glued to the track and performance will improve. From what I've seen, it actually works quite well.

PS, I'm glad someone else noticed that drop in the promo video. When I first saw it in the hobby shop, my mouth dropped open. At first you think its a simple drop like any other promo but then the 'Champ just falls and falls and falls. One would think it would shatter into a million pieces but it just picks up and drives on. Amazing.

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I put money on it that the body ended up breaking the nose piece after that drop

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