jeekelemental

Older buggies are coolest!

  

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I'm planning to buy a 2WD racing buggy, not for racing (at most club race), and looking around for a Tamiya or non Tamiya buggy there is a consideration that I want to check if it's shared or not. What do people think about the modern, cab forward, design?

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I'm confused because there are many many of vintage cab-forward designs. They are just not functional like the modern super-ugly bull-dog type buggy bodies.

If you are not actually going racing, then it doesn't matter what body you get. And if you are only racing at the club level, then it "might" not matter what body you run, provided you are more skilled than the competition.

You will definitely KNOW if you need to step up to a modern aero body set. And you won't need to poll a bunch of vintage collecto-dweebs.

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There's looks, and then there's function. Take your pick.

Yep, I agree but I'm talking only about look :)

I figure that new bodies may increase performance (expecially if you belive in it) but, IMO, are not cool as the older ones.

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I guess the answer you will get in this poll won't surprise many of us. Since this board is mostly for dedicated vintage/rere addicts, I assume the most of us prefer the old style buggy look :)

From a function perspective, I doubt it will do much difference for the average racer. Driving lap after lap, day after day, seems to be the keyword to good results in races. I doubt the cab forward design will take a driver from c-main to the top of the a-main :)

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I guess the answer you will get in this poll won't surprise many of us. Since this board is mostly for dedicated vintage/rere addicts, I assume the most of us prefer the old style buggy look :)

From a function perspective, I doubt it will do much difference for the average racer. Driving lap after lap, day after day, seems to be the keyword to good results in races. I doubt the cab forward design will take a driver from c-main to the top of the a-main :)

:D never say never.. moderity is a green eyed monster :D

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a bunch of vintage collecto-dweebs.

I have been called many names but this is a new one. Kinda refreshing :)

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Well designed cab forward designs may make a difference in racing but you'd have to have well matched drivers to see it. There's debate as to how effective half these designs are. On a vintage racer you could always add a small wing at the nose / shock tower to give a similar effect as can forward.

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I'm willing to bet 99% of competitive racers (ie, 99.99% of RC enthusiasts) aren't good enough drivers to notice a slight aerodynamic difference on a foot-long model car going 30mph on dirt. It's just marketing hype, like tennis racquets or running shoes or golf clubs. The top 1% have a slight edge with it, so the marketing people convince the rest that they "need" it, and sales go up.

For me personally, if it doesn't at least sort of resemble a real car going around the track, there's just no point to it. Which is part of the reason I don't race.

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Well designed cab forward designs may make a difference in racing but you'd have to have well matched drivers to see it. There's debate as to how effective half these designs are. On a vintage racer you could always add a small wing at the nose / shock tower to give a similar effect as can forward.

Indeed. As far as I understand it, the cab-forward design came about as an attempt to achieve the effect of a front wing in a racing class where front wings are usually not allowed. However many manufacturers seem to have simply jumped on the aesthetic bandwagon, under the belief that modern buggies have their cabs at the front, and people will buy their product if it looks modern, even if it doesn't perform aerodynamically.

But yes, if your scrutineers will allow it, use a front wing and an old-school bodyshell. You will achieve similar if not greater aerodynamic advantages and look a whole lot better while doing so!

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The aesthetic appeal in cab-forward designs either appeals to any sort of added function, or the different composition - like separating a mid-engine racer from a front-engine type. Given that mid-engine cars are considered more modern than their front-engine brethren, the same logic may have an application for selling the look of the cab-forward design v. the traditional buggy layout.

An example could include the cab-forward concept on Dodge's car lineup (such as the Stratus and the Neon). The packaging of those cars favoured such a design theme since they were not marketed as sports-cars or pure coupes, therefore needing some more cabin space while featuring smaller engines than said sports-cars. The case for RC cars is less convincing as mechanical function goes since buggies have had more or less the same layout for years, but aerodynamically may make sense.

If a driver was to take a seat in the cockpit of his or her race buggy, he or she will notice more visibility with the cab-forward design - if they can see over the front shock towers, that is... That was probably a reason for adopting it for real cars, as well.

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The shape of the shell makes a huge difference. JeepNMike has a TB03 with a Mazda RX7 shell on it, and I sent him a Takata NSX shell to try out. He could immediately feel the difference between these two shells. I've also driven my JL10 chassis with and without a Dodge Stratus shell, and it made a world of difference in how the car steered. The various versions of Protoform shells provide more or less steering depending on shape, and racers run whatever shell works best for the track they're on.

Remember how crappy the DT02 Sand Viper steering is? Try a cab-forward shell on it, or even a Leonis shell on it, and I bet you'll feel the difference right away as more downforce gets applied to the front wheels.

That's why I said you can choose between looks and function earlier. The "realistic" shells look great, but don't necessarily maximize the potential of the chassis for racing. The blob, spaceship, cab forward, soap bar shells are designed with performance in mind. You should really take a look at some of the wide wedge bodies run in oval racing. They don't look anything like a real car, but that's what provides an advantage in racing. Would anyone run a Tom's 84C, Newman Porsche, or Mazda 787B in 1/12 scale if they're always getting spanked by a Protoform or Parma shell?

Looks or function. Pick one.

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I was blown away by the difference I could tell between the two shells Speedy_W_Beans mentioned above. When I drive my TB03 with my RX-7 shell, it runs loose and definitely rear steers quite a bit. When I put the NSX shell on, it flat wouldn't slide which is a huge adjustment for what I am used to for driving style and really surprised me how different it felt.

I don't think the shell aero effect would be quite as noticeable on a buggy, but if you were to try to different shells one after the other, you may be surprised. I actually kind of like the cab-forward look of modern buggy shells, they 'look' a little less heavy in the rear. The original RC10 will always be gorgeous, but for modern styles I don't mind the cab-forward look.

markbt73, I would usually totally agree with you and if I hadn't driven two different shells on my TB03, I would have called BS about shells making a difference, I was surprised.

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Its very true that the vast majority of us, won't notice the tiny differences a body shell can bring. Going back to my early Touring days, i ran most shells, it wasn't till a good few years i realised the Stratos gave me an edge, and just because the Alfa looked cool, it actually hurt my driving in having a loose rear end (teehee) and bags of steering, even then, i wasn't even close to a level of knowing when a certain shell should be used depending on conditions, and circuit.

But i have to say, buggies, yup, the oldies are the goodies, its like real cars, way back, bags of character, fast forward to the now, there isn't anything to love for me. Stick a CAT K1 next to say, a Kyosho Optima, or Tamiya Avante, and tell me, what is more easy on the eye.

lee

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Buggy aesthetics went downhill after the 58050 Wild One... everything else since doesn't rate a mention :P

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Remember how crappy the DT02 Sand Viper steering is? Try a cab-forward shell on it, or even a Leonis shell on it, and I bet you'll feel the difference right away as more downforce gets applied to the front wheels.

Please excuse me when I disagree on that one.

The understeer comes from the DT-02 being a RWD buggy and from the initial steering and front suspension setup recommended in the manual.

The former can be adressed by adjusting one's own driving style from 4WD to RWD. The latter can be easily fixed by adjusting the steering rods for toe-out, by choosing the correct front tires for the surface you want to drive on, and by adjusting the front oil dampers, ride height and weight on the front bulkhead to give the car a slight nod towards oversteer.

For more adjustments in the steering department, one would have to choose a RWD buggy with a more sophisticated steering system (RC10B4 and pretty much any other typical RWD buggy of today that was designed to mimic this one).

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You don't need to use a evil monstruous body to have more downforce on your front end. You just need some good set up or, in case of bad steering design like the DT-02, you can simply keep your Tamiya beautiful body and add a mini transparent wing* on the front end.

Max

EDIT: *or a little weight...

Remember how crappy the DT02 Sand Viper steering is? Try a cab-forward shell on it, or even a Leonis shell on it, and I bet you'll feel the difference right away as more downforce gets applied to the front wheels.
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Aren't RC cars called cars because they look like... cars?

Vintage buggies look realistic, why would you want to race something that looks like a bar of soap?

The modern stuff looks ridiculous' stuff performance!

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