Silver cans, are there different types?

[Boothy]

As the title really, just opened the lunchbox and found the silver can to be slightly different to the one that came in my blitzer.

The blitzer one has a sticker saying mabuchi motor RS540SH there is also a stamped FL on the sticker, the end bell is black.

The one that came in my lunchbox has no sticker, a silver end bell and the outer case is different in terms of finish.

So are there different manufactures or is it a different type of mabuchi?

Cheers

Andy

[GregM]

540-sized 27 Turns silvercan motors found in Tamiya kits are either Mabuchi or Johnson branded. Over the time, those motors have been modified in appearance, e.g. can surface finish, endbell colour, number of slots. The re-release kits often are supplied with cans feature a large Mabuchi sticker and have a nice feeling glossy silver finish.

As far as I know, there shouldn't be a significant difference in performance. More relevant to performance of closed silvercan motors would be a break-in, please see this thread for more information:

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=72127&p=524096

Other manufacturers like Kyosho and Carson Modelsport often supply their cars with tuned 540-sized silvercans. These run at higher RPM, resulting in higher temperature, and thus feature integrated fans. Other brands like Traxxas use larger 550 sized silvercans for more torque.

[Boothy]

Cheers Greg, I am guessing this one must be a Johnson one then.

So will 550 size motors fit into tamiya then or are they totally different?

[lentner3]

550cans fit most tamiya, they are the same diameter and mounting holes but they are slightly longer so unless they are obstructed by the chassis or suspension they will fit. Just depends on chassis.

[GregM]

A Johnson 540 motor was in my Mad Bull kit. Surprisingly, at one time Tamiya advertised these "540-J" motors as hop up options.

Are they really more powerful than the Mabuchi motors?

Well, in my opinion, I don't think so. To me, there's no noticeable difference between the Mabuchi RS-540 and the Johnson 540-J. From what I can see, they appear to have the same specifications, just a different branding and slightly different appearance.

[XV Pilot]

Perhaps it was psychological, but when I raced in our club's silver can class, my motor of choice was the Johnson 540J with the black endbell. The brushes seemed to wear out faster, which to me indicated either firmer springs or softer brushes, both of which I equate (perhaps erroneously) with superior performance.

However I was also a bit of a stickler for propper break-in procedure, so maybe it was that which gave my motors the edge over the competition?

[Boothy]

I have never actually broken a motor in, will it really make that much of a difference? For some reason sticking something electrical in water does not sit right with me.

[TongueTied]

I saw on another thread that break-in procedures are no longer necessary. I don't know if that is true or not. I too have never broken in a motor and am actually a bit nervous putting anything electrical into water.

[XV Pilot]

Break-in procedures are all about getting a good fit between brushes and commutator, and between shaft and bushings. With a modern ballraced brushless motor, break-in is no longer required. However with an old-school bushed brushed motor such as a silver can, break-in is just as important as it has always been.

[lentner3]

will a motor not break itself in on it's own if your just using it lightly? surely the brushes are soft enough to just wear to the commutator within a short time?

I too have never bothered but I don't race either.

[Quandry]

The GT brushed motor instructions say to run the motor lightly for 3 to 5 minutes. For bashing, that's probably good enough - my 2 cents.

[MadInventor]

I think the silver end bell are not as good as the black end bell mabuchi. They just seem slower when using them, I've no scientific evidence to back this up with. Likewise, back in 80s, the white end bell johnsons seemed to have a lot more ooomph than the standard black end bell mabuchi.

[mongoose1983]

I think the silver end bell are not as good as the black end bell mabuchi. They just seem slower when using them, I've no scientific evidence to back this up with. Likewise, back in 80s, the white end bell johnsons seemed to have a lot more ooomph than the standard black end bell mabuchi.

That's very interesting. I don't have scientific evidence either, but while I prefer by far the looks of the black end bell Mabuchi motors, I noticed the newer silver/metal ended ones are much faster. I have no numbers to support this statement, it's only what I noticed running RC cars.

[ruebiracer]

Every brushed motor is doing better,

when it gets a slight break in.

I often see people ruining new cup-machines in our spec racing class, because they need a new motor during qualifying and simply built them in the car for the next qualifier.

Most of the time, this damages a motor by overheating the brushes and hardening them out (blue color).

A slight break in at 3V´s with a battery for some minutes (like in the good old days) can do the job,

or waterdipping.

This is my preferred method the last 3 years. But I have to say, that I don´t do it like 20 years ago with destilled water and battery, but with driving the motor with another one and simple water. I built with some bin parts and a Pizza sauce glass a small "station" for this purpose. Since I got finally hold of one of the rare Robitronic motor testers for a reasonable price, I also could verify, that it really helps to get the best out of the cans.

If anybody is interested, I can post some pics and my current method!

Br,

Matthias

[lentner3]

Every brushed motor is doing better,

when it gets a slight break in.

I often see people ruining new cup-machines in our spec racing class, because they need a new motor during qualifying and simply built them in the car for the next qualifier.

Most of the time, this damages a motor by overheating the brushes and hardening them out (blue color).

A slight break in at 3V´s with a battery for some minutes (like in the good old days) can do the job,

or waterdipping.

This is my preferred method the last 3 years. But I have to say, that I don´t do it like 20 years ago with destilled water and battery, but with driving the motor with another one and simple water. I built with some bin parts and a Pizza sauce glass a small "station" for this purpose. Since I got finally hold of one of the rare Robitronic motor testers for a reasonable price, I also could verify, that it really helps to get the best out of the cans.

If anybody is interested, I can post some pics and my current method!

Br,

Matthias

Yeah i'd like to see that in some detail.

[Boothy]

I saw on another thread that break-in procedures are no longer necessary. I don't know if that is true or not. I too have never broken in a motor and am actually a bit nervous putting anything electrical into water.

I'm glad its not just me

[ruebiracer]

Here you can see the dipping machine built from scratch. It was an old plastic box, an O-Ring and 2 pulleys. Made holes in the box for the engines, and in the metal closure of the Pizza-sauce glass.

Took an old motor as driving motor, the new one is driven passive without fear of electricity short cut.

I´m usually doing 3V by my charger for 25min. in reverse direction of the Motor! This settles the brushes in, slightly shifting them to reverse direction, which adds some slight timing on the engine. (as on a motor with adjustable end bell). After finishing and drying the motor, I run it directly in driving direction again on 3V´s for 25 min., which prepares the comm for the upcomming bigger currents. The first 2 packs, you should run on a training session though, and run gently in the beginning.

[lentner3]

Thanks for sharing but looks like a lot of bother for myself when I only bash. Will I notice any difference?

[MadInventor]

On a slight tangent from the running in water question, I used to clean old sealed motors by running them in a margarine tub full of white spirit. I just used an old 7.2 pack and a mechanical speedo to run them in both directions. Amazing the gunk that comes out. When I was done I then just re-oiled the bushes and away to go ...

[ruebiracer]

Thanks for sharing but looks like a lot of bother for myself when I only bash. Will I notice any difference?

I guess you will, even when bashing alone, but for sure when going side to side with a friend. You will notice both better acceleration and top speed. For sure, for my method you have to do some work, but with a normal silvercan Mabuchi without internal fan you can simply use a 3 cell battery and dump it int a glass of water for some minutes, or run it in dry at lower voltage. You will be pleased by a long lasting, well going motor.

For example the motor in the picture had 90,1Watt max. power and a max. rpm of 17.943 in new condition, which is on the better half for this type of machine (measured a lot for our motor pool in our racing class). After the run in procedure, it shifted max. 99,0Watt, running already at 18346 rpm max.. And the brushes of this machines are really hard and just slightly settled in. It will get even more power on running it in the car now. In our motor pool we measured recently after one year 13 cans, and only 2 had a slight drop in power, all others were even better than last year after run in. And this motors did 6 races over the year with training on saturday and at least 3+3 races on saturday. 5 of them are even above 100Watts (101-104 Watt), which is really outstanding for this can.

On a slight tangent from the running in water question, I used to clean old sealed motors by running them in a margarine tub full of white spirit. I just used an old 7.2 pack and a mechanical speedo to run them in both directions. Amazing the gunk that comes out. When I was done I then just re-oiled the bushes and away to go ...

You´re totally right, such dippings are also reaally great to get the motors clean running in the dirt, or on carpet!

In the end, everybody has to decide on it´s own, how much work to put in his motors. I can understand both sides, especially the bashers. But as it was already explained in the thread, it´s also a good restoration method, to save some old motors you can not get any more etc.. I did it e.g. with an old sports tuned, that came with my ebay Avante 2001, which is running really well after the clean. Saved some bucks for a new sports tuned, which are quite expensive in my eyes.