RC Buggy toe out wheel alignment

[geopaj 3]

I bought a couple of cheap RTR Buggies from my LHS for my kids the other day (I'm too embarrased to confess the brand😔 - the cars are just for bashing and keep them away from my vintage Fox)

Both buggies came set with a lot of toe-out (to me). The LHS confirmed this is the correct setting for an off-road RC car.

I always though (or assumed) that an RC buggy would run similar wheel alignment figures and a full size, real, road car (ie couple of degrees neg camber and a couple of degrees toe-in).

So, my questions are;

1/. Is the the toe-out advice correct?

2/. If yes, what is the lodgic/rational for an RC car needing toe-out when full size, real, road car needs the exact opposite, toe-in?

Thanks

[GregM 1109]

Have you driven one of these yet? If yes, how are they behaving regarding oversteer?

On my 2WD buggies, I prefer neutral toe or slight toe-in at front. Most of them have fixed toe-in at the rear anyway.

Don't be shy, tell us the brand and model name.

[lentner3 281]

I guess it depends on the handling carachteristics you want?

[InsaneJim69 1584]

Also depends on the rest of the setup on the buggy. A change at the front effects the whole buggy not just the front. with my FTX Vantage i run 1 degree toe in with 4 degrees negative camber, but on the rear i have 2 degree toe in and 1 degree positive camber, which seems to give me great front end turn in response and take away some understeer. Just works for me on and off road With the vantage.

What works for 1 buggy doesnt always work for another. But toe out on the front usually give a safe bit of undrrsteer. Try it and see how it runs. If it understeers badly then if the steering is adjustable, adjust anlittle each side to give a nuetral setting and try again. Just go bit by bit. I understeer is great for begginers as it makes the handling safe and predictable, but its easilly tweaked to make the front end bite a bit more and get that front end turning earlier. Even just for bashing its still fun to tweak away

James

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[geopaj 3]

Have you driven one of these yet? If yes, how are they behaving regarding oversteer?

On my 2WD buggies, I prefer neutral toe or slight toe-in at front. Most of them have fixed toe-in at the rear anyway.

Don't be shy, tell us the brand and model name.

Ok, be kind...

I bought two Himoto Bashe RTR buggies. They were on post-Christmas sale and were AU$100 each (approx US$74) and have complete parts support at a couple of LHS. I figured for the price I couldn't go wrong as they are complete, which each buggy even including a battery and charger. As stated above, it will keep the kids away from my recently restored vintage Fox.

I have noticed they seen to track "happier" going forward compared to in reverse so perhaps the toe-out advice is good???

I guess it depends on the handling carachteristics you want?

They are just for bashing/fun... Nothing to serious

[GregM 1109]

Just for reference

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_(automotive)

[Gruntfuggly 562]

I had a couple of Ansmann buggies which had some toe out. Due to the design of the buggy, frontal impacts tended to stretch the front wishbone mounting points so the toe out got progressively worse... after a while it look like the car was going to split itself in half!

For bashing I don't think it matters whether you use toe-out or toe-in, you just want a bit of one, otherwise the car will jump about if there is any slack in any of the steering components.

[Percymon 2184]

Toe out tends to be better for straight line stability - no bad thing in a cheaper starter type chassis

[shenlonco 1156]

4wd rc's work better with a little front toe out most all the time.

[lentner3 281]

Toe out tends to be better for straight line stability - no bad thing in a cheaper starter type chassis

I thought toe in was better for keeping the car straight?

[InsaneJim69 1584]

I thought toe in was better for keeping the car straight?

Depends on the chassis IMO. My Vantage is really twitchy with anything more than 1 degree toe in on the front. Yet If I have toe out its very stable in a straight line but steering response isn't great.

James

[94eg! 834]

Toe out tends to be better for straight line stability - no bad thing in a cheaper starter type chassis

Both toe-in & toe-out are better for straight line stability. Play in the suspension & steering systems of toy cars makes them unstable with ZERO toe, as the slack wags back & forth. You always want to run one or the other for consistent handling.

Typically Toe-In is better for extremely high speed driving. It decreases ackerman, which is better for high speed cornering where both tires follow a much more similar arc. The reduced ackerman from the toe-in also reduces the responsiveness of the steering which can make the car feel less unstable or sensitive to minor steering inputs. Especially when combined with lots of downforce. Think big oval track or dragstrip.

Typically Toe-Out is used for 1:10th RC because of the relatively low-speed nature of RC tracks. Lots of turns & the need to make extremely quick maneuvers to avoid others. Toe-out increases the ackerman and helps increase steering response and makes the car handle better through the relatively low-speed turns where the two front tires follow very different arcs. Of course the major variable is suspension design. They have come a long way in the 30+ years.

As for your 1:1 vehicle, it's all a very different & more complex game. There is usually no aero function on street cars, so they are known to become more unstable at speed. This is why you will almost always find toe-in on their suspension settings. Unfortunately toe is the MOST detrimental setting to tire life (no not camber). Therefore modern suspension systems are designed with bushing deflection in mind which causes artificial toe-in under various load conditions only (see pics below). This means the static alignment setting is usually 0.00 toe for increased tire life. But when the brakes are applied, or the suspension experiences lateral force loading (hard turns), a bump is hit, or even power is put down (accelerating), the suspension is designed to deflect in a way that toe-in increases ever so slightly to keep max stability in all circumstances. Especially in the rear. Toe-out is NEVER a wanted thing in the rear due to instability.

Here is an interesting read about Honda's 5-link rear suspension development. Very informative: http://world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702b.html

[lentner3 281]

I was just going to say that 😜

[geopaj 3]

Thanks everyone who replied (especially 94eg! For the extremely detailed response).

It's nice to know WHY, which I now do