Brusier/Mountaineer

[Tamiyaguy]

Does anyone think that these truck will be released again? I cant afford what they go for now. I remember back in 1993 I was contemplating the idea of buying a Mountaineer, but back then it was like $400 US. Anyway, just want to know if some of you diehard fans know about any suprises.

[DJTheo]

Noone unfortunatelly knows, as a traditional Japanese company Tamiya keeps their plans very tightly sealed (unlike the 3 speed gearboxes []), it could be some time in the future, it could be never, or it could be that it would be released with a plastic chassis like the XCs and the 1:14 rigs plastic gearbox...

But for $400 you could get now a runner, which would be fun to drive [8D]

Cheers

[mymonsterbeetleisbroken]

quote:or it could be that it would be released with a plastic chassis

id="quote">id="quote">

has any one noticed the plastic chassis rails on the juggy? they are the long plastic parts above the metal chassis sides, has any body ever used these to make a chassis up, because the look similar to 3 speed chassis rails[]

[Tamiyaguy]

I dont know what the problem is? People will kill for one of those..used or NIB. Dont they want to make it again to increase sales? The ONLY thing I can think of is that this nitro market is killing the electric market. Im not a fan of nitro nor will I ever be. That would be great if they came out with one again, Im sure I wouldnt make the mistake of not getting one the 3rd time around.

[WillyChang]

"Back then", $400 might have bought you a lot more than today - that's

like a fortnight's salary or something. Same amt/value today could be

like $1000.... would you buy one if that's what Tamiya asked?

Don't get blinded by nostalgia, and do remember that Tamiya needs to

sell many tens of thousand units before its worth a production run.

[Tamiyaguy]

I honestly think they would. I could be wrong and that is why they discontinued them. Maybe all they need in electric sales is 58065 and 89.

[netsmithUK]

The main problem with discussing these type of things here is that we are still a very group of people that like old Tamiya models, so our opinions are very biased. As a gobal representation of a the RC car buying public we are insignificant.

The only way I can see it being rereleased is to sell to mad people collectors like us as 'collectors' pieces ie very expensive, like Willy says I'd guess $1000.00 a go easy, probably with a serial number and plastic display case.

[DJTheo]

Sorry but dont agree, they sell tanks, yachts, dump trucks, 1:14 trucks, solar vehicles, all very detailed and with high production costs and not large sale numbers, all significantly under $1000, I don't see what would be different with a 3 speed, I guess it would even sell in higher quantites then most of above. No excuses for Tamiya [!]

Also I sense lately a pessimism or even many TC members being against re-releases , would understand the first if they wouldn't have shown any signs (other re-releases) before (don't tell me they did tenthousand pcs batches of the re-release bodies which according to your statement is the only way to make profit), or is it fear that the collections will loose their value? I personally dont see my collection as a money value/investment, as an investment is something you will sell when its price rises, so I dont care even if they re-release all, would even be happy, as I could rip open those love kits, build and run them!

Cheers []

[WillyChang]

End of the day, T is a private company with a huge entrenched

local domestic market. Suspect they really couldn't care a sniff

what vintage collectors think, as any profits would be a drop in

a huge ocean. As a private company they don't have public

shareholders who demand high dividends, so they can run their

company any well they jolly well feel like.

Good situation to be in, if one was a company.

If one were T, one would be more inclined to make plastic RC kits

that sell 50,000 units in 1 mth, rather than putting efforts into

making expensive complex models that may only sell 1000 in *all*.

Moreover, LHSes do *not* want to stock these ancient kits... as

they will have low turnover and there'll sure to be ppl coming back

causing trouble by asking for non-existant spareparts etc.

That said... if there was a GUARANTEED CASH-BACKED DEMAND for

One Thousand Units at US$1000 each (cash paid upfront), one might

get a credible answer direct from Shizouka via suitable contacts.

Money talks - you want to rally up the $1,000,000?

But until that hard cash appears, just keep dreaming.

And that's the hard reality check, guys.

[DJTheo]

Nope, the reality is that as I stated above they keep releasing tanks, yachts, dump trucks, 1:14 trucks, solar vehicles, all very detailed and with high production costs and not large sale numbers, despite your (correct) arguments against such releases.

Tamiya even run small bathes of re-release spares and I dont think anyone guarantees them 1000 orders for those in advance []

Even big multinational shareholder companies like Daimler Chrysler make small batches runs like the SLR which don't bring them money profit as at those small quanities even the extremly high selling price cant cover design, engineering and tooling costs but they still do it. Why? Those items are image holders and bring the brand name into discussion and people to showrooms and the same is why Tamiya makes some weird kits like the Solar car for example. Kids that drool now over the SLR, will buy when they grow up a C-Class... Were for example the 3 speeds a flop? Maybe in short terms they didnt bring as much $ profit as expected, but look now at TC, 1000+ members who now returned to the hobby and buy also modern Tamiyas, because they were drooling over a Bruiser in 86 and couldnt afford it.

For re-release cars the risk is even less than those weird kits like Yachts, solars and dump trucks, as the most expensive part of kit is its design, engineering and tooling design, and all those already exist in CAD/CAM files.

Now I need to breakfast, after such a long sleep/dream []

[mymonsterbeetleisbroken]

quote:they keep releasing tanks, yachts, dump trucks, 1:14 trucks, solar vehicles, all very detailed and with high production costs and not large sale numbers

id="quote">id="quote">

the tanks sell well all over the world - i have seen more tanks around than buggys lately....

the rc yachts also have a big following - bigger than the vintage tamiya fans.... sadly.

the mammoth dump truck is discontinued i beleive, but it was only a re used juggernaut so new tooling costs for tamiya were minimal....

the 1/14 scale trucks sell well to people that like trucks, tamiya must have thought there is a better market for rigs than high priced re releases.

i agree with netsmith that any re release is gonna cost loads and will be very limited.

[WillyChang]

Well, how many *confirmed* orders can we muster between us?

'Cos if we can get somewhere near 1000... let's just say I might

have a very good idea where I can find a sympathetic ear all the

way up to Tamiya HQ for a re-released Bruiser or Scorcher.

It might have to be a 1-off "special order" not handled via all the

various international Tamiya distributors (who aren't interested)

so it won't appear on LHS shelves (they aren't interested either).

Casual inquiries suggest a sticker of approx JPY 60,000-80,000

would be ballpark for this type of model on 1000 units run.

This is all serious stuff here, no josh.

I know for fact that Tamiya *will* do re-pros to order if asked

via the right channels and if the whole batch is pre-sold.

Any better suggestions?

Odd facts to ponder:

1) Tamiya does lots of plastic models especially army/navy stuff,

much more than their RC dept

2) tanks were Tamiya's first motorised plastic model

3)

[DJTheo]

Thats sound cool Will, only problem is how to "confirm" those orders? [?] Any ideas? Because also the old online Bruiser petition had brought almost 1000 votes, but these were far from confirmed orders [8)]

quote:the tanks sell well all over the world - i have seen more tanks around than buggys lately....

the rc yachts also have a big following - bigger than the vintage tamiya fans.... sadly.

the mammoth dump truck is discontinued i beleive, but it was only a re used juggernaut so new tooling costs for tamiya were minimal....

the 1/14 scale trucks sell well to people that like trucks, tamiya must have thought there is a better market for rigs than high priced re releases.

---

id="quote">id="quote">

Sorry, dont know about your country but I dont even have seen a Yacht in any of my LHS. Also I see approx. 20 RC cars for 1 Tank kit in my LHSs.

Also for an old buggy they would reuse old tools, the big cost isnt to make new molds, but to CAD/CAM them, but those files exist already.

About the trucks, I must agree they sell not bad, especially in Germany, but also here where there are many RC-truck hobbyists, the "advanced" ones buy expensicve metal ones from German manufacturers and I think in many countires Rc-trucking isnt as developed as here.

Cheers

[Shodog]

I would just be happy with a Bruiser and Sand Scorcher Body re-release. There are plenty chassis still out there to be snapped up.

[WillyChang]

quote:Originally posted by DJTheo

Thats sound cool Will, only problem is how to "confirm" those orders? [?] Any ideas? Because also the old online Bruiser petition had brought almost 1000 votes, but these were far from confirmed orders [8)]

---

id="quote">id="quote">

I'm afraid the only way to "confirm" and order is Cash Upfront.

That way there's no way for turncoats pulling out, as inenvitably

happens if you don't make ppl put their $$ where their mouth is.

This has been a backburner project for several years now

(admittedly targetted at Hilux #1 rather than Bruiser etc).

This contact to T-HQ has already proved his worth as he's already

arranged for special one-off runs of other old non-RC Tamiya items.

Shizouka just needs a commitment to buy the whole production run

and they'll willingly schedule it in.

quote:Sorry, dont know about your country but I dont even have seen a Yacht in any of my LHS. Also I see approx. 20 RC cars for 1 Tank kit in my LHSs.

id="quote">id="quote">

LHS has some yachts too, they've been sitting there for yrs.

Tamiya hasn't brought out a new one for 10 yrs, right?

Its only the same 2-3 different models..?

quote:Also for an old buggy they would reuse old tools, the big cost isnt to make new molds, but to CAD/CAM them, but those files exist already.

id="quote">id="quote">

Yup, but have to consider

1) hopefully those 'old' CADCAM files are usable on new machines?

2) Tamiya hasn't made much die-cast items of late, am wondering

if they still have the machines to handle the old potmetal.

*************************

What really surprises me all this while is... wondering why

no-one out there has tried duplicating the Tamiya hard shells.

ABS plastic molding is not very hi-tech anymore.

Might have to start checking what Taiwan or China needs to

setup a run of Mounty or Hilux shells, haha. Or even make

us an all-new shell of a later model Toyota truck.

[DJTheo]

Its a bad circle, as you will never find many people putting so much money upfront, too many will be afraid of a scam, on the other side you say Tamiya wouldnt do it without it... [8)][] But actually that aint the way modern companies usually work, they have market researches for that, hope we can convince them to make one or find some serious independat market analist to do one for us? Still cheaper than finding 1mil upfont...

CADCAM files are usually backwards compatible...

Also for the pot parts, Tamiya could outsource them to another company, even we could find one that would do it, no big science...

You are right about the molding of ABS bodies, nowadays with CNCs they are very easy to make, even $10 cheap toy cars have extremly detailed plastic bodies, no comparison to the time we were kids []Maybe its fear of copyright break, but possibly the rights have expired on those designs and its just that none of those Asian companies knows their market potential, have a feeling it would be much easier to convince one of the Tamiya rippoff makers to do a production run for us! [8D] Want to send some enquieries, even some newer pickups or off road vehicles would fine, also no troulbe with Big T then.

[Tamiya1/10]

The market will decide what Tamiya will do. Put new product out or do some retro release but with some modifications.

There is not true re-release. Unless you classify the 3spds of Tamiya from the Blazar to the Mountaineer are close enough. Is the Wild Willy a "real" re-release? how about the Avante to the Avante 2001? or the Lancia 037? or the 6 wheeled F1 & Farreria? Are they really re-release? The closest re-release I considered is the XR311..no MSC and improved on the torsion suspension from plastic to metal with the rest of the chasis remain the same. Other re-release is just the body, the chasis is about the same as the current Viper vs the AC Cobras. Let face it the old 3spds and the RR series are nothing compare to today stuff. I am not sure if I would like an exact re-release of the 3 spds which are difficult to maintain the RR/SS, will if you have one you would know. Just look at any of the current buggies and big foot RC... they are fast, tough and handles well. We are a small niche group and we like the old stuffs is because of the details and the effort put. We deviated from the spirit of RC, we became collectors aka dust collectors or better put helf queens or NIB.

[WillyChang]

quote:Originally posted by DJTheo

Its a bad circle, as you will never find many people putting so much money upfront, too many will be afraid of a scam, on the other side you say Tamiya wouldnt do it without it... [8)][] But actually that aint the way modern companies usually work, they have market researches for that, hope we can convince them to make one or find some serious independat market analist to do one for us? Still cheaper than finding 1mil upfont...

---

id="quote">id="quote">

Via this particular source, its safe to say that I believe big T has

casually looked into the matter if re-releasing various desirable

oldies but the feedback is reporting that

1) their worldwide distributors don't want anything to do with it.

They will not be putting their orders in for high-dollar collector

items, as they will all not be easy to move out to their LHSes.

This was before the 6-wheeler & XR311 too, btw... so now they've

been burnt once since and now even more twice shy.

2) worldwide demand might only be several hundred pieces at tops,

making it a very risky proposition to commission even 1 run.

3) production cost will be high (JPY 60-80,000 est) just at breakeven.

Don't know what this entails, but suspect new tooling will be

required to be reproduced from existing CADCAM files - no drama there.

So - short answer is they will not consider remaking a Hilux or SS

for selling via the usual new-stock channels NOR will they be

interested in bankrolling such a project with their own funds,

for reasons above.

If somebody somewhere wanted to underwrite the whole project

and take delivery of the whole lot, T might be willing to slot the

one-off run in. (Like I said, that won't be the first time either.)

Yep, big Catch 22 but as usual $$$ does all the talking in business.

Happy to facilitate via my contact but we'd only be wasting our

breath if we don't have enough demand out there to find homes for

the whole run.

Oh also... I hear Tamiya don't use "market research" as we know it.

They never scout the whole perceived marketplace to choose the models

that will sell the best. From sounds of it (opinion of same contact),

their decision-making on which model to make is totally arbitrary

and bears little reliance on what the market wants. (Methinks its

pure luck that us suckers just buy everything they make. [8)])

As for company practices... am told T does not keep used molds/tools.

By the end of production run they'll be worn out & useless, so

there's no point keeping them so they're recycled into the furnace.

Storing molds is an invitation for theft, so Tamiya prefers to use-up

the molds completely each time by making excess parts for spares.

Tamiya also prefers to do everything in-house if possible, to

reduce Quality Control issues; Sub-contractors are kept to minimum.

Complete contrast to current "western" business thinking, who's to

say which is better? Only 10 yrs ago all the biz experts were going

agog on 'Keizan' continuous improvement Jap-style etc etc... now

its all done a full 180 and changed direction with the wind again.

Ahh, in all a very circular discussion here (deja vu?).

But end game is - don't waste time with petitions

(heck, I think I signed that a couple of times myself...)

just show them the money, you'll get T's attention better that way.

btw just HOW MANY of you would buy one @ $1000?

That is the main question, isn't it??

[Stefan(2)]

if it was a re-pro , without any modifications , i would buy one for the 800 euro's love the low dollar

But, if it would be like the xr311, some modifications, i would not (not for that money anyway.)...

But, i never trust my own greed when they ever in the most remote possible way would actually bring out a "mod" version

I would defentetly be intrested!

Stefan

[DJTheo]

quote:As for company practices... am told T does not keep used molds/tools.

By the end of production run they'll be worn out & useless, so

there's no point keeping them so they're recycled into the furnace.

Storing molds is an invitation for theft, so Tamiya prefers to use-up

the molds completely each time by making excess parts for spares.

---

id="quote">id="quote">

Of course, as molds wear out during production runs, for high selling kits they probably change molds even in the middle of its production. But the cost to mill molds if you have the CNC files and your own CNC machines (Tamiya has) is minimal.

quote:btw just HOW MANY of you would buy one @ $1000?

---

id="quote">id="quote">

Now I am the pessimistic one [8)], my bet is you wont find 100 people in TC that would put $500 upfront or 25 who would put $1000...

Btw for $1000 its also pretty silly as the NIB prices arent yet that much higher but if the price goes more to the 60000 JPY reason (around $700) it would be interesting IMHO

Cheers

[WillyChang]

quote:Originally posted by DJTheo

Now I am the pessimistic one [8)], my bet is you wont find 100 people in TC that would put $500 upfront or 25 who would put $1000...

---

id="quote">id="quote">

Reality check, Theo.

The trucks were originally RRP US$429 or $479 new, I think.

Street price was as low as US$289 thereabouts... & A$800 here. [8)]

Given $-4-$ buying-power parity blah blah blah, no chance it'll

ever be anywhere near $500. Buying direct from Tamiya means they

charge you full JPY RRP, I'd bet.

quote:Btw for $1000 its also pretty silly as the NIB prices arent yet that much higher but if the price goes more to the 60000 JPY reason (around $700) it would be interesting IMHO

id="quote">id="quote">

Was working on basis of JPY 60,000 out of the factory door, plus

cost of insured courier delivery to anywhere in the world. [8D]

Its a damned big box!

btw, has the JPY-USD broken 105 yet?? []

[DJTheo]

quote:quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by DJTheo

Now I am the pessimistic one , my bet is you wont find 100 people in TC that would put $500 upfront or 25 who would put $1000...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reality check, Theo.

The trucks were originally RRP US$429 or $479 new, I think.

Street price was as low as US$289 thereabouts... & A$800 here.

Given $-4-$ buying-power parity blah blah blah, no chance it'll

ever be anywhere near $500. Buying direct from Tamiya means they

charge you full JPY RRP, I'd bet.

---

id="quote">id="quote">

Didnt mean that the price should be $500 (as I wrote also below talking about $700) just meant, that even if people would have to deposite only half of the price or $500 you wouldn't get 100 orders in TC.

[WillyChang]

Yea, regardless of the arrangement (full or deposit), I have

my doubts if we can find homes for any more than 100 units

even if we buddy up with RCMT. [:I]

No I have no need for the extra 900 spare kits. [|)]